Habits that kill fun in a session.

[LansXero]

His spells never work, because they weren't there in the first place. People see him as a crazy dude. All attack do double damage against him and you impose a penalty to his saving throws (he never needs to know about this), because he's actually a commoner, so all his saving throws have the bad progression and he has a d4 hit die.

Actually not so simple to do this in Eberron... I had the exact same situation with someone who wanted to be a cleric of the red knight and then a paladin of tyr... and if there can be godless clerics of an ideal, they can be clerics of the domains of whatever faerunian deities they have a fancrush on, and it would be valid :(

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually not so simple to do this in Eberron... I had the exact same situation with someone who wanted to be a cleric of the red knight and then a paladin of tyr... and if there can be godless clerics of an ideal, they can be clerics of the domains of whatever faerunian deities they have a fancrush on, and it would be valid :(

Clerics of the Sovereign Host would just pat him on the back and say he's a worshiper of Dol Arrah. Seriously, that's what they do.

[LansXero]

Clerics of the Sovereign Host would just pat him on the back and say he's a worshiper of Dol Arrah. Seriously, that's what they do.

Well, yeah. And even if they were doing it for the specific domains and whatnot I was willing to add it to the SH domains or twist it so any of them could, reasonably fit whatever the player wanted to worship. But some people just wont budge.

[Choco]

Wow, you get to play D&D once a week, and videogames as often as you want. He must have a really short attention span.

Now that I think about it, "short attention span" is probably the underlying cause of most of my gripes with fellow gamers. It seems to be a plague among people of my generation and younger. Well lets add em, again!

Mr. Can't pay attention to save his life-You know the guy. You are not even 4 words into the opening sentence of your campaign, and he already has his phone out and is checking his email or surfing the web. He assures you he can multitask and is still paying attention, but every single time the spotlight moves to him, you need to spend 5-10 minutes explaining what just happened. Don't even get me started on character creation and leveling up...

[big teej]

I know I mentioned this one in the past.... but I feel it bears repeating as I have a whole GROUP full of these guys.

mister/miss "Never gets back to the DM about anything!

as a DM, I tend to send out emails/facebook messages/texts/etc. about various things I'm doin from the group.
ex.
"hey I found this feat/class/race/spell/whatever in a new book I think you'd be interested in"
"hey, I'm starting a new plot-arc, have your gaming preferences changed any?"
"hey, we have a new sourcebook, here's the nifty stuff from it"
"hey, does anybody need me to walk them through creation again?"
"hey, does everybody have their backup characters?"

etc. etc. etc.

I can't get a reply or feedback from these people to save my life....

[SlashRunner]

Now that I think about it, "short attention span" is probably the underlying cause of most of my gripes with fellow gamers. It seems to be a plague among people of my generation and younger. Well lets add em, again!

Mr. Can't pay attention to save his life-You know the guy. You are not even 4 words into the opening sentence of your campaign, and he already has his phone out and is checking his email or surfing the web. He assures you he can multitask and is still paying attention, but every single time the spotlight moves to him, you need to spend 5-10 minutes explaining what just happened. Don't even get me started on character creation and leveling up...

What irritates me is short in-game attention span. Now, what I'm going to be saying is in reference to the players in my group, and I know one of them reads these forums. So, Matt, if you happen to read this, I'm not mad at you guys or anything. I can roll with it. But I'm just writing this down because...

Ok, so the party is helping a resistance group that's trying to overthrow the evil Empire (the resistance group is also led mainly by blue and green dragons, so it's not all goody-two-shoes either). A new player joins our group and two of the old players decide that they're getting bored of their characters and decide to make new ones. So, conferring with the players who wanted new characters, I decided that an easy way to both introduce the new characters and kill off the old characters was to have a resistance meeting, and have it interrupted by guards. The old, to-be-killed-off characters did an epic "YOU SHALL NOT PASS" style thing, and everyone else escaped. Afterwards they regrouped. This is what happened.

A (Human Ranger/Rogue): Well, I guess the resistance is screwed. Let's go find a dungeon.
Me: Wait...WHAT!?!
A: Yeah. They killed everyone in the resistance. Let's go find a dungeon.
Me: What makes you think that? You know that it's generally stupid to make assumptions...
A: Yeah, well my character is assuming that the resistance is done. I go to the tavern (which had a humorous name that I forgot) and ask my contact Dwarfy McDwarfyDwarf (Not his real name, but I can't remember that either) whether he knows anything about any nearby dungeons.
Dwarfy McDwarfyDwarf (Hereby to be known as DmDD): Sure, I know about dungeons. Did you know that in the last 3 weeks, 1923 people died of starvation in the Emperor's dungeons?
A: Not that kind of dungeon. The kind that has treasure.
DmDD: You mean a treasury? (If you didn't get it, I'm trying to hint that the notion of a "dungeon" in standard RPG terms is a ridiculous one that I have no intent to entertain in my games unless it makes sense)
A: No, a dungeon with monsters and treasure.
DmDD: Pick one or the other. You can have a dungeon with monsters or a dungeon with treasure.
A: (something about dungeons)
Me: FINE! Fine! There's an ancient burial place for the kings of some ancient empire tunneled through the mountains to the west. Tales speak of monsters and treasure. You happy now?

[The Glyphstone]

Sounds less like a short in-game attention span and more an out-of-game attempt to deliberately annoy you by stomping all over your plot.

[SlashRunner]

Sounds less like a short in-game attention span and more an out-of-game attempt to deliberately annoy you by stomping all over your plot.

Thing is, I don't really have a plot. I've sort of got it planned out a bit, but I'm letting them have free reign for a while. If you've every played TES: Oblivion, it's like the Thieves Guild. You have to fence a certain amount of stuff before you get your first mission.
And they sort of went "We're not getting explicit directions regarding what to do. DUNGEONS HERP DERP!"

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thing is, I don't really have a plot. I've sort of got it planned out a bit, but I'm letting them have free reign for a while. If you've every played TES: Oblivion, it's like the Thieves Guild. You have to fence a certain amount of stuff before you get your first mission.
And they sort of went "We're not getting explicit directions regarding what to do. DUNGEONS HERP DERP!"

That... doesn't sound like free rein. Though I also wonder why the guy assumed the resistance was dead. What did the other players do?

[SlashRunner]

That... doesn't sound like free rein. Though I also wonder why the guy assumed the resistance was dead. What did the other players do?

It is free reign. They literally had no one telling them what to do besides "please, help the resistance in any way you can". Maybe, later, I was going to have the resistance attempt to pull some more complicated stuff and they would probably ask them if they wanted in, but I told them that they were free to find things to do that weren't resistance-related. Maybe this whole thing was my fault, for telling them that.

[big teej]

It is free reign. They literally had no one telling them what to do besides "please, help the resistance in any way you can". Maybe, later, I was going to have the resistance attempt to pull some more complicated stuff and they would probably ask them if they wanted in, but I told them that they were free to find things to do that weren't resistance-related. Maybe this whole thing was my fault, for telling them that.

partly, but if I'm reading the situation correctly it's also fault of the players.

for instance, I assume it's just a matter of time before one of my groups rides away from what I have prepped for 2 simple reasons.

1) I don't railroad
2) I don't prepare beyond 1 session in advance.

basically, lets say the party of righteous do-gooders decided "hey, we should go kill that dragon in the mountians" and they all sounded fairly certain that this was what they wanted to do. at the end the session, if they sound decided upon the dragon thing.

I spend the time between sessions preparing an adventure to go hunt down the dragon.

at no point do I tell the party "okay, now you have to go hunt down the dragon"

so, next week, lets say an absent player arrives and says something along the lines of
" a dragon!? there's no way we can kill that right now, we should go find some sort of macguffin to help us slay it."

and they're free to run off and do so.


however, they do so knowing I've got nothing ready on that.

so as opposed to 'railroading' we have a bit of an unspoken agreement.

"they follow through on what they said they planned to do last week, and they don't have to suffer through me trying to improve a whole adventure"

my players are really nice to me.

I love them.

[LansXero]

partly, but if I'm reading the situation correctly it's also fault of the players.

for instance, I assume it's just a matter of time before one of my groups rides away from what I have prepped for 2 simple reasons.

1) I don't railroad
2) I don't prepare beyond 1 session in advance.

basically, lets say the party of righteous do-gooders decided "hey, we should go kill that dragon in the mountians" and they all sounded fairly certain that this was what they wanted to do. at the end the session, if they sound decided upon the dragon thing.

I spend the time between sessions preparing an adventure to go hunt down the dragon.

at no point do I tell the party "okay, now you have to go hunt down the dragon"

so, next week, lets say an absent player arrives and says something along the lines of
" a dragon!? there's no way we can kill that right now, we should go find some sort of macguffin to help us slay it."

and they're free to run off and do so.


however, they do so knowing I've got nothing ready on that.

so as opposed to 'railroading' we have a bit of an unspoken agreement.

"they follow through on what they said they planned to do last week, and they don't have to suffer through me trying to improve a whole adventure"

my players are really nice to me.

I love them.

Hey you are like a me who has the decency to not subject his players to improvised sessions! weird that, huh. I guess I should try to get into that sort of agreement some time.

I wish I had plot-breakers like you guys do. I DM mostly as a way of mental gymnastics. But its becoming very very tiring to have players trying to figure out how to "please" me and where my plot leads. Well, it used to be that they used to try and figure it out so they could run away from it, but then they gave up (since I dont actually have a plot) and now are trying to find the rails and get back on track. Which is equally futile. I just want them to do what they want to do, and then they go and decide they want to do what I want them to do. Damn players.

[big teej]

Hey you are like a me who has the decency to not subject his players to improvised sessions! weird that, huh. I guess I should try to get into that sort of agreement some time.

I wish I had plot-breakers like you guys do. I DM mostly as a way of mental gymnastics. But its becoming very very tiring to have players trying to figure out how to "please" me and where my plot leads. Well, it used to be that they used to try and figure it out so they could run away from it, but then they gave up (since I dont actually have a plot) and now are trying to find the rails and get back on track. Which is equally futile. I just want them to do what they want to do, and then they go and decide they want to do what I want them to do. Damn players.

to be fair, it wasn't sandbox from the beginning.

since nobody in the group but me had experience with 3.x when I started the group, I used this little "teaching module" with the explicitly stated warning of.

"hey, since we're all learning here, I'm going to run us through this teaching module, as much as I hate it, I'd like you to do me a huge favor and not hop off the rails for the duration of the module."

however, once the module ended, the rails ended. I told them "well, having cleansed the dwarven halls from grobi filth, and restored the dwarf lord to health, you have several options before you"

and I listed (I think ) 4 adventure paths for them to pick from. they went with "lets go get that dragon" and from that point forward it's been a "what they said last time" game.

[Greyfeld]

The "You didn't say that" GM: This is the GM that only reactions explicitly off of what you say, instead of using a little logic and taking the initiative to assume the PC's baser actions.

Player: I slowly peer around the corner.
GM: You see a blank hallway with a couple doors at the far end, on either side of the hall.
Player: Alright, I carefully make my way down the hall.
GM: You step on a pressure plate, setting off an arrow trap! Roll a reflex save.
Player: Wait, what?? I have a +20 Search modifier, why didn't I see the trap before triggering it??
GM: You didn't say you were looking for traps.
Player: I've been searching for traps through this entire dungeon!!! I'm a rogue for christ sake!!
GM: Then I guess you'll say it next time. Roll your reflex save.

[Shadowknight12]

I wish I had plot-breakers like you guys do. I DM mostly as a way of mental gymnastics. But its becoming very very tiring to have players trying to figure out how to "please" me and where my plot leads. Well, it used to be that they used to try and figure it out so they could run away from it, but then they gave up (since I dont actually have a plot) and now are trying to find the rails and get back on track. Which is equally futile. I just want them to do what they want to do, and then they go and decide they want to do what I want them to do. Damn players.

Players instinctively know how to frustrate DMs. Your experience is the perfect example of that. Railroad, don't railroad, it doesn't really matter.

[Trellan]

Player: I slowly peer around the corner.
GM: You see a blank hallway with a couple doors at the far end, on either side of the hall.
Player: Alright, I carefully make my way down the hall.
GM: You step on a pressure plate, setting off an arrow trap! Roll a reflex save.
Player: Wait, what?? I have a +20 Search modifier, why didn't I see the trap before triggering it??
GM: You didn't say you were looking for traps.
Player: I've been searching for traps through this entire dungeon!!! I'm a rogue for christ sake!!
GM: Then I guess you'll say it next time. Roll your reflex save.

To be fair, searching for traps isn't really a passive skill. Unless you made it clear by saying something like "I'll be searching for traps the whole time in this dungeon", you can't expect your DM to assume you are. You could just as easily get upset with him because he assumed you were searching, moving at a fraction of your normal rate, so the BBEG had ample time to set up a trap or run away.

Not to mention that, if it is assumed you are always searching, there's no point in traps whose spot DC (or whatever mechanic the game uses) is lower than your modifier since you'll just immediately find it with no effort. Sometimes even trained experts get hasty and forget to cover the basics.

[ryu]

The persistent pedantic:

Trellen I think the math is lower than or equal to your modifier plus one right? This is of course assuming no circumstance variable unless you include that in the aforementioned modifier. Sorry I just get really specific over mathematics, and game rules set before me.

I tried an experiment. Chronicle by example. Opinions? Also edited for minor error.

[The Glyphstone]

The persistent pedantic:

Trellen I think the math is lower than or equal to your modifier minus one right? This is of course assuming no circumstance variable unless you include that in the aforementioned modifier. Sorry I just get really specific over mathematics, and game rules set before me.

I tried an experiment. Chronicle by example. Opinions?

Actually, it'd be your modifier plus one, because you don't auto-fail skill checks on a 1.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, we had a guy that would sometimes just not show up. No warning, except MAAAAYBE at the very last minute (usually not, and he'd not answer his phone). Sometimes he'd just come a couple hours late.

[big teej]

heh... I'm one of those "but you didn't say that" DMs

but thats because I try very hard to teach my players "don't take anything for granted"

[navar100]

To be fair, searching for traps isn't really a passive skill. Unless you made it clear by saying something like "I'll be searching for traps the whole time in this dungeon", you can't expect your DM to assume you are. You could just as easily get upset with him because he assumed you were searching, moving at a fraction of your normal rate, so the BBEG had ample time to set up a trap or run away.

Not to mention that, if it is assumed you are always searching, there's no point in traps whose spot DC (or whatever mechanic the game uses) is lower than your modifier since you'll just immediately find it with no effort. Sometimes even trained experts get hasty and forget to cover the basics.

I could give a pass if the rogue player didn't say he was searching for traps, but I would highly object if the rogue player did say he was looking for traps, the DM asks for specifics, the player answers, and the DM responds with You didn't say you check This Particular Thing, you suffer XdY damage as the Mcthingy hits you.

[Greenish]

And they sort of went "We're not getting explicit directions regarding what to do. DUNGEONS HERP DERP!"

They had lost the trails, and thus were defaulting to dungeoncrawling. Makes perfect sense.

[137beth]

Mr. Why Can't I Use It If It's In The Rules:

But, WotC put the wizard in the PHB for a reason! I should be able to play a wizard and use every spell in every book, even though the other players have a fighter, a samurai, a monk, and a healer. You're just trying to punish me for using good strategy!*

*Where "strategy" refers to to picking a wizard, and then selecting spells based on what the GM has told the players he thinks is overpowered.

[Zerg Cookie]

Mr. I should be able to do everything
My skill modifiers are high because I'm a rogue with 20 dex 14 int.
Your skill modifiers are low because you're a sorcerer with 20 cha 10 int.
Now stop complaining and blast that damn monster, my perception and acrobatics aren't gonna do it for ya.

[Traab]

Mr. I should be able to do everything
My skill modifiers are high because I'm a rogue with 20 dex 14 int.
Your skill modifiers are low because you're a sorcerer with 20 cha 10 int.
Now stop complaining and blast that damn monster, my perception and acrobatics aren't gonna do it for ya.

They could, if you used them right. Use your perception to spot that open spike pit in the floor, then use your acrobatics to make the monster fall into it while you safely leap off his plummeting carcass to be. (Im sure thats not how those skills actually work, I just couldnt resist)

[The Glyphstone]

They could, if you used them right. Use your perception to spot that open spike pit in the floor, then use your acrobatics to make the monster fall into it while you safely leap off his plummeting carcass to be. (Im sure thats not how those skills actually work, I just couldnt resist)

Mr. Why Can't I...
"But I've got max ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble! I should be able to jump over the monster, do a backflip, and stab him in the back of the neck for an automatic critical!"
"The rules don't work that way, now shut up and roll your attack."

[Greyfeld]

Mr. Why Can't I...
"But I've got max ranks in Balance, Jump, and Tumble! I should be able to jump over the monster, do a backflip, and stab him in the back of the neck for an automatic critical!"
"The rules don't work that way, now shut up and roll your attack."

Automatic critical aside, I think a player should be able to pull off that stunt if he wants to. Granted he makes the appropriate jump, balance, and tumble checks. And understands that if he biffs one of them, he's probably going to land on his ass, with a very angry monster standing over him.

[The Glyphstone]

Automatic critical aside, I think a player should be able to pull off that stunt if he wants to. Granted he makes the appropriate jump, balance, and tumble checks. And understands that if he biffs one of them, he's probably going to land on his ass, with a very angry monster standing over him.

Yeah, I'd let them try it too, for sheer cool factor.

[Delwugor]

Yeah nice cool moves don't mean an automatic success. Bur even a failure could be fun to play.
"You jump and flip in midair landing behind the monster, roll your attack"
*1*
"You where so impressed with your cool move that you actually forgot to followup with a strike."

[Traab]

Yeah nice cool moves don't mean an automatic success. Bur even a failure could be fun to play.
"You jump and flip in midair landing behind the monster, roll your attack"
*1*
"You where so impressed with your cool move that you actually forgot to followup with a strike."

"Unfortunately, the vertigo caused by your flip caused you to aim 7 inches to the left of your target. You miss."

"Its at that moment you realize you left your knife in your other holster. ooops."

"Somehow during all the flipping, you reversed your grip on your knife. You just tried to stab him with the hilt."