Hardest Monster you've ever faced?

[Surrealistik]

Well, you can't slide him back up into a square with the Wall of Fire in it with Earth Roots (assuming I am correct that in understand Earth Roots lets you slide the target 2 squares) since entering a square with Fire in it cost 3 extra squares of movement, even forced movement. Forced movement may ignore difficult terrain, but walls/zones/ect aren't terrain. See PHB FAQ answer:

Yeah true, you're going to need two Wizards, or 1 Wizard and 1 Druid or Wizard. Web/Arcane Whirlwind, Earth Roots/Damage Power (Stinking Cloud for example). Strategist's Epiphany guarantees they both go first.

Earth Roots/Stinking Cloud goes first.
Web/Arcane Whirlwind second, four dings (2x slide 3, forceful implement), (for 1d10+6+2 (Implement) + 2 (Dual Implement) + 2 (Staff of Ruin) + 1 (Siberys Shard of Mage) = 34 average poison damage. Earth Roots can ding twice for 51 average damage. Another 8.5 damage during the Tarrasque's turn because it begins its turn in the zone. More than adequate damage to kill the Tarrasque before the duration of the effects wear off.

Tarrasque in the meanwhile starts out slowed and immobilized. He can reserve an action to run 4, but it won't matter, because he just gets slid 4 squares up right back where he started.

Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca.

Still mad I see.

[Meta]

Yeah true, you're going to need two Wizards, or 1 Wizard and 1 Druid or Wizard. Web/Arcane Whirlwind, Earth Roots/Damage Power (Stinking Cloud for example). Strategist's Epiphany guarantees they both go first.

Earth Roots/Stinking Cloud goes first.
Web/Arcane Whirlwind second, four dings (2x slide 3, forceful implement), (for 1d10+6+2 (Implement) + 2 (Dual Implement) + 2 (Staff of Ruin) + 1 (Siberys Shard of Mage) = 34 average poison damage. Earth Roots can ding twice for 51 average damage. Another 8.5 damage during the Tarrasque's turn because it begins its turn in the zone. More than adequate damage to kill the Tarrasque before the duration of the effects wear off.

Tarrasque in the meanwhile starts out slowed and immobilized. He can reserve an action to run 4, but it won't matter, because he just gets slid 4 squares up right back where he started.




Still mad I see. It makes sense though, since you're apparently one of the people who thought they actually accomplished something by beating such a poorly designed monster at L17, when a tiny two man team of dink, Heroic level controllers can do it effortlessly, using items, feats and powers they'd normally take in the first place.

{Scrubbed}

Also, any monster can get beat handily by the wrong matchup. Vecna is a pretty nasty monster yea? Not so much against a party of revenants.

Anyone can devise a strat to handle a specific monster, but usually those characters becomes too one-two trick pony, so a good DM can capitalize on that specificity.

[Cealocanth]

(4e) The hardest monster I've thrown at my group would have to be a lvl 4ish Spirit of the Desert (homebrewed, really just a Spirit of Winter with level and name changed, as well things like Cold turning to Fire and changing power names to match) against a level 2 Rogue and a level 2 Rouge-ish DMPC. Mind you it was a Solo and thanks to storyline complications a lvl 3ish Elite Raider Nightblade (homebrewed, re-occuring villian, I use a lot of homebrewed monsters.) decided to show his face and duke it out with the pair. Each of them were pushed under 0 HP at least once and they both walked away with 20ish RADS under their belt but they managed to survive. It was also the hardest encounter I've ever thrown at any member of my party, but the upcoming session may change that.

[Surrealistik]

ya got trolled...

Also, any monster can get beat handily by the wrong matchup. Vecna is a pretty nasty monster yea? Not so much against a party of revenants.

Anyone can devise a strat to handle a specific monster, but usually those characters becomes too one-two trick pony, so a good DM can capitalize on that specificity.

Except that these aren't one/two trick ponies so much as well-rounded, powerful controllers picking options/items/powers they normally would anyways. All of those build choices are competitive if not top tier.

Also Vecna's nothing compared to any save penalizing controller. He just dominates Vecna, stacking on every imaginable penalty to his saving throw, then has him deactivate his aura as a minor on his turn. Everyone can go to town, and attack him with impunity.

[Meta]

Except that these aren't one/two trick ponies so much as well-rounded, powerful controllers picking options/items/powers they normally would anyways. All of those build choices are competitive if not top tier.

Also Vecna's nothing compared to any save penalizing controller. He just dominates Vecna, stacking on every imaginable penalty to his saving throw, then has him deactivate his aura as a minor on his turn. Everyone can go to town, and attack him with impunity.

Maybe nothing to a level 30 save penalizer controller in a party, but that kinda goes without saying and isn't that impressive. Solos are already underpowered in 4e so letting a party fight a boss with all or even most of its resources is usually gonna be silly unless you have built the monster around countering PCs.

And those two pcs are good at taking out one melee foe but a bunch of lower level monsters from multiple sides for the average 4-5 encounters a day? They're gonna get beat. Certainly good builds but not that well rounded. Controllers in general are pretty much glass cannons that get messed up when Plan A and B doesn't work

[Surrealistik]

Maybe nothing to a level 30 save penalizer controller in a party, but that kinda goes without saying and isn't that impressive. Solos are already underpowered in 4e so letting a party fight a boss with all or even most of its resources is usually gonna be silly unless you have built the monster around countering PCs.

At Epic regaining Dailies tends to be quite easy and consistently doable. I never said godspanking with an optimized save penalizer was impressive either.

That said Solos aren't necessarily underpowered; it all depends on design, specifically the number of actions they get, and the resistance they have to debilitating conditions. Tiamat is an example of a (relatively) well designed solo as contrasted to Vecna.

And those two pcs are good at taking out one melee foe but a bunch of lower level monsters from multiple sides for the average 4-5 encounters a day? They're gonna get beat. Certainly good builds but not that well rounded. Controllers in general are pretty much glass cannons that get messed up when Plan A and B doesn't work

No one has ever said that two controllers, even two well built controllers such as these are would make a good standard adventuring party by themselves, but these would be effective in the context of a same level party, and do their job well. By well-rounded I don't mean they can literally 'do it all', so much as they can do a variety of things within their role well.

[Meta]

At Epic regaining Dailies tends to be quite easy and consistently doable. I never said godspanking with an optimized save penalizer was impressive either.

That said Solos aren't necessarily underpowered; it all depends on design, specifically the number of actions they get, and the resistance they have to debilitating conditions. Tiamat is an example of a (relatively) well designed solo as contrasted to Vecna.



No one has ever said that two controllers, even two well built controllers such as these are would make a good standard adventuring party by themselves, but these would be effective in the context of a same level party, and do their job well. By well-rounded I don't mean they can literally 'do it all', so much as they can do a variety of things within their role well.

I see, I thought we were still talking solo heroes. Really, almost every character can be effective in a party, even classes weak at their role like seekers or assassins can find success.

[Surrealistik]

I see, I thought we were still talking solo heroes. Really, almost every character can be effective in a party, even classes weak at their role like seekers or assassins can find success.

I'm pretty sure I was never arguing or advocating that a controller could be a capable solo adventurer.

Also, yes, almost every character can be effective; 4e makes it hard to build a truly bad character. These controllers are fairly optimized however; they will do their jobs far better than a substantial majority of builds.

[Crossfiyah]

{Scrubbed}

[Surrealistik]

And everyone is thoroughly impressed. Done now?

{{scrubbed}}

Also the intent of that post wasn't to impress so much as to correct Meta's misunderstanding; the builds are fairly optimized, but as a whole they are not revolutionary (though they will spank a Tarrasque).

[Meta]

Wait, wasn't that _your_ aim, what with the whole "I beat Tarrasque at level 17 bit"? Lul. Still bitter I see.

Also the intent of that post wasn't to impress so much as to correct Meta's misunderstanding; the builds are fairly optimized, but as a whole they are not revolutionary (though they will spank a Tarrasque).

He didn't beat the tarrasque, he dmed. {Scrubbed} But yes, orbizards have been around since PHB 1 and they are a good build. Slightly less abusive after errata but strong.

[Surrealistik]

He didn't beat the tarrasque, he dmed. still trolling you. But yes, orbizards have been around since PHB 1 and they are a good build. Slightly less abusive after errata but strong.

Not even orbizards, just save abusers.

Also, I hope he keeps it up so the mods can upgrade his warning to an infraction (and preferably a ban in time).

[Meta]

Not even orbizards, just save abusers.

Also, I hope he keeps it up so the mods can upgrade his warning to an infraction (and preferably a ban in time).

I would say orb users are the best to utilize save ends effects but given that the standard package is mostly item oriented, most classes can do it

[Surrealistik]

I would say orb users are the best to utilize save ends effects but given that the standard package is mostly item oriented, most classes can do it

That's probably true for Heroic and maybe Paragon; the edge they have when it comes to save penalization at these tiers is small but significant. Beyond however, you can usually stack penalties to the point that the orb feature is inconsequential or even wholly redundant (yes, even for solos). Personally I would rather play an Enchantusionist, and find them overall more powerful (and fun).

[Sipex]

Surreal, you're not being a saint either so you can't talk.

That said, the team of Wizard & Druid would have to know what they're going up against before building their characters. Mind, the trick would work against most single or tightly grouped melee land based creatures but they would be easily countered by a spread out monster party, anything with range or any monster which has an attack which allows it to move X squares as part of the attack.

It would be interesting to see a 5 character party which was based around the whole concept of setting this up and corralling all the monsters into the zone though.

[Surrealistik]

Surreal, you're not being a saint either so you can't talk.

That said, the team of Wizard & Druid would have to know what they're going up against before building their characters. Mind, the trick would work against most single or tightly grouped melee land based creatures but they would be easily countered by a spread out monster party, anything with range or any monster which has an attack which allows it to move X squares as part of the attack.

It would be interesting to see a 5 character party which was based around the whole concept of setting this up and corralling all the monsters into the zone though.

That's not true, because you're completely discounting their at-wills and encounters, which feature plenty of forced movement; I didn't factor these in the Tarrasque battle because most of them need to hit to have any effect. Further, Arcane Whirlwind can chase enemies around with auto-hit forced movement. Web and Architect Staff Earth Roots have huge AoEs, as does Stinking Cloud. Stinking Cloud is also movable like Arcane Whirlwind.

Finally, while they're built to beat the Tarrasque, the powers, feats and items they have are all something you could normally expect to see on relatively optimized characters.

[Sipex]

Oh yeah, don't get me started on web. I used to DM a group with two wizards and that was always the first spell out on the field.

This set up would be amazing for most dungeon sized encounters because of the cramped area ways, you could probably get through some well planned encounters with minimal or no damage.

It does require the burn of two dailies on the wizard's half though but you can almost always bet that they'd save those spells for the hardest fights.

Does the tornado require a sustain minor action or does it stick around like web?

[Surrealistik]

Oh yeah, don't get me started on web. I used to DM a group with two wizards and that was always the first spell out on the field.

This set up would be amazing for most dungeon sized encounters because of the cramped area ways, you could probably get through some well planned encounters with minimal or no damage.

It does require the burn of two dailies on the wizard's half though but you can almost always bet that they'd save those spells for the hardest fights.

Does the tornado require a sustain minor action or does it stick around like web?

It's sustain minor, but you get a slide during the sustain.

[tcrudisi]

That said, the team of Wizard & Druid would have to know what they're going up against before building their characters. Mind, the trick would work against most single or tightly grouped melee land based creatures but they would be easily countered by a spread out monster party, anything with range or any monster which has an attack which allows it to move X squares as part of the attack.

It would be interesting to see a 5 character party which was based around the whole concept of setting this up and corralling all the monsters into the zone though.

Actually, funny you should mention that.

My fiancée and I have been playing a Wizard/Druid combo for LFR for the past few months. We just hit level 11, so I can comment on my experiences through the heroic tier. I play the Wizard and she plays the Druid.

We have 0 problems in combat. In fact, if the monsters are separated, it really doesn't impact us. I'll take one half of the field and she'll take the other half. We lock them down, regardless of their positioning. If they are clumped up, well, they were screwed anyway, now it's just game over in round 1 as opposed to round 2. It's entirely 100% unfair.

The usual group we play with comments about how easy combats are. And our usual group? A Seeker|Warlord hybrid, an Assassin, and the least optimized Warlord ever. If those three don't inspire fear or awe, yeah, that's not surprising. Yet we still steamroll encounters because of the Wizard and Druid locking down the encounters from round 1. At level 10 we had a +19 and +15 to init's with a couple of tricks thrown in to ensure that we always went first. And the only time that it wasn't Wizard, Druid, everyone else was when I'd burn Strategist's Epiphany and let my allies go first for whatever reason.

Yes, we built our characters together, so we have great synergy. Yes, it's LFR so there are (usually) only 3 combats per module, so we just examine the battlefield and figure out which one of us will use dailies for the win. It's such a sickening combination. The funny part? People always talk about how controllers are the least important role. I disagree - if you have a good controller, combats are made easy. If you have two good controllers, combat is never a problem.

We do utilize some zone abuse. Ignoring dailies, I have an at-will to slide the enemy and an encounter power to do it on a miss. The Druid has an at-will slide, and an encounter power push. Forced movement isn't a problem for us, nor is setting up zones to abuse.

[Sipex]

Wow, that's pretty inspiring and slightly scary.

I'm glad I don't DM for your group (no offense). That said, anyone who thinks controllers aren't vital are sorely mistaken. My party has won at least 75% of their fights because the wizard did his job and I sat there going "Okay, well I guess this enemy doesn't do anything this turn."

[Meta]

LFR has a pretty tame reputation when it comes to combat encounters and optimized pcs but an impressive feat nonetheless

[Surrealistik]

Yeah, anyone who asserts Controllers are the least important role clearly has not seen an optimized one in action. They are encounter crushers, especially Wizards.

[Vknight]

Controllers I have stories about them and there amazing ability to make that pleasent field your in covered in razor wire and webbing

[Jack_Banzai]

Visions of Avarice + Fountain of Flame + Stone Blood = WIN.

[Gwic]

No mention of the original needlefang drake swarms?

Glad I'm not the only one. I caused a near-TPK with that monster. Had a 4 PC party: DB Fighter, Elf Rogue, Tiefling Wizard, Elf Ranger. They fought the Needlefang Drake Swarm and, IIRC, 2 guard drakes.

The problem wasn't the monster; it's that this was probably 6th or 7th encounter these players had ever fought. The wizard didn't figure out he needed to use area powers. The melee PC's figured they would just eat the aura. I gave the Rogue a custom, RP'd power to heal, but he felt his character wouldn't use that at this point for RP reasons.

Like most of DnD encounters, it's more about figuring out the puzzle than hacking and slashing. These player's were just too new to realize that. I think most of these killer monsters are just puzzles we didn't/couldn't solve.

Off topic, should we just go ahead and re-title this thread "The finer points of forced movement", since the vast majority of posts have nothing to do with "Hardest Monster you've ever faced?" and it's tough to find those posts in thick of this fight?

[JysusCryst]

While I haven't been playing long enough to really have a hard monster fight of my own (I've only played about 3-4 sessions) I do have some stories that my DM has told me, and one that was supposed to be hard, but turned out being way too easy.

I'll start with the my DM's story first. He's not a member here, so I'll tell it.
He wasn't DM'ing at the time and the characters where at a pretty low level. Well, the DM for this game set up a tunnel maze the character had to get through to fight his big, bad, boss monster. The party ended up taking almost all the right turns in the maze on their way to the boss and the missed out on a lot of the dead-ends and traps/encounters that were in the maze. So they got to the boss in better than expected shape and that's when the typical DM's curse came in to play. The DM took all this time designing this bad*** boss, only to have every PC crit, and the boss crit-fail almost every roll, and he got taken out with relative ease. This is where the good part comes in. The PC's didn't think to make a map of the tunnels, so on their way back they ended up taking a wrong turn in the maze and running into three skeletons. A party that just defeated big-boss man without any difficulty at all, still mostly in good health and with dailies to spare, ran into three, just three, skeletons and got almost completely wiped out. From then on the DM threatened the party with skeletons and the PC ran from or destroyed any random pile of bones they happen to come across in the rest of their adventure.

TL;DR Three skeletons. That's it.

Now for my own experience, which didn't go the way I wanted it to.
This was my only second time playing D&D, and my buddy thought it would be nice to introduce me to DM'ing. He, however, decided to give me a hard time (along w/ the rest of the group) by playing evil or chaotic evil characters, "just to see how I'd handle it." Well, he was a Minotaur Barbarian who decided to go it alone into a cave infested with goblins. So I decided to punish him/teach him a lesson by going WAY over the XP budget and putting far to many goblins in the cave. I was thinking if he didn't run, he'd be beaten and would have to wait for rescue. Well, as soon as he walked in the cave and saw the goblins he used a power (can't remember the name or be bothered to look it up right now) which intimidated EVERY SINGLE GOBLIN that was close to him. The goblins, not wanting to fight this scary Minotaur, immediately turned around and helped him kill their comrades. Not only did the PC get a ton of XP from a fight he wasn't supposed to win, but he also got a small band of goblins that worshiped him, and he rescued all the beer that the goblins raided from the caravans, which is the only reason he wanted to kill the goblins in the first place.

TL;DR Minotaur vs. way to many goblins intimidated them into fighting for him instead of against him.

On the off-topic topic of this thread: Myself and my DM look at Web this way. Whether or not you walk to in it willingly, or are pushed into a giant, sticky web, you're going to get stuck. It fits the story. It just doesn't make sense that "Well, luckily I got pushed onto this web, so it isn't sticky like if I wanted to walk on it."

[gurban]

The most difficult encounter I've run my players through was from the adventure in Dungeon Magazine, Bark at the Moon. First off, it is a wonderful adventure and I recommend leafing through it. One encounter features a Satyr, two wood woads, and some gremlins. First off, the Satyr has an at-will, burst 5, enemies only daze power. The gremlins have an aura 2, which now stack, enemies in the aura take -5 to skill checks and -2 to saves. Not only that, but when the gremlins are adjacent ot an enemy, they become invisible. The wood woads have a power called Nature's mystery, which also has action denial and save penalties tacked onto it. It was really brutal and frustrating. Once the satyr was down to about 10hp, he left the battlefield and everyone was pissed.

[VeliciaL]

In my current 4e campaign, our DM is having trouble finding encounters that can really challenge us, especially since we currently have two leaders with strong healing. He got especially annoyed when we pretty much beat the snot out of a young green dragon after getting lucky initiative rolls.

So, he decided to up the ante a bit, having us go for a rematch against said green - who we'd let go alive - accompanied by a young red dragon. The ensuing battle was probably the closest we've come so far to a TPK.

[Jukebox Hero]

A pack of Dire Wolves or Winter Wolves.

I have never DMed for or been in a group below level 6 that has been able to get past that encounter.

[tynger1234]

3.5 illusions

These little buggers of spells caused almost 2 TPKs on the same party. Oddly enough everyone in that party lived through each fight somehow.

Fight 1
Against a big A** dragon. Turns out the dragon made an illusion of another dragon and he turned himself invisible. While being brutally masacred by the illusion, the party wizard figured out we were fighting thin air and revealed where the real dragon was. NO-ONE died!

Fight 2
The Aboleth with a programmed illusion. The Aboleth made the water in his dungeun appear to sink and a couple of people in the party who could'nt breath under water began to drown without relizing until someone (cant remember who) pointed out that there was an illusion.

I hated my DM for weeks after each of these events.