LOTR Eagle Theory: I still buy it

[Scowling Dragon]

The common counter argument to the eagle theory Ive heard are:

Artillery

And Evil Dragon thingies.

And that the Eagles are lazy. I can't counter that one.

The artillery argument makes no sense as no arrow can shoot that high, same goes for artillery. And no army is going to be able to quickly shoot artillery at a quick moving target.

And the Dragon things: Are *******. They die under light taps, and the Eagles seem to be a match for them.

Just have Gandalf magi-kill them in flight. Shoot arrows at them, or other stuff like that.

Point is that this plan is workable. You can have some eagles lure the Dragon things, and then quickly fly over the Mountain with another group.


Remember, the evil Dragon thingies started flying to the mountain only when the Eye noticed the ring being put on.

I still enjoy LOTR, but I still think the eagles theory is more credible.

[Water_Bear]

I'm not sure if you're basing this on the books or the movie, but either way you've kind of missed some serious issues.

Firstly, the entire point of the "Nine Walkers" plan; stealth. Sauron was already homing in on the Ring; tracking it with his spy networks, his most elite demi-god agents, and his personal magical connection to it. Even being as incognito as possible, taking the most circuitous dangerous routes, he still nearly finds the ring about a half-dozen times. Put it on the back on an Eagle flying in a clear sky? Boom, he's found it.

Secondly, the Fellowship was completely outmatched by the forces against them. The Nazgul, despite their weakness to Fire, put the fear of Eru into Gandalf (wielder of the Ring of Fire!) and drove him off Weathertop without their full numbers, and even Aragorn had trouble fending a few off under ideal conditions. That's before taking into account that they would be on their Fell Beasts, uncloaked, and in their full numbers with the Witch King in command... against a bunch of guys held in the claws of eagles.

That brings me to the Thirdly; the eagles are not flying motorcycles. Every time someone is carried by the eagles in any of the books, it's being held in their claws, virtually immobile, and the eagles have to carry their heavy asses wherever they need to go. They're fast, especially since they can fly in straight lines, but it's still going to be weeks to get to Mordor, being attacked by waves of Nazgul on Fell Beasts, Giant Bats, Crebain, and whatever else Sauron can muster.

And finally, what happens once they get there? You can't fly over an active volcano on a bird; you'll be roasted alive before you get anywhere near it. So they'd need to land, and then fight their way through Sauron's entire armies up the mountain and then, after all that, actually muster the will to drop it in. Remember, Frodo couldn't do it; if it wasn't for Gollum, he'd have turned right around like Isildur and walked out with it. And, other than Sam, Frodo was the least affected by the ring; the others were already fantasizing about what they could do with it without ever having touched it.

TL;DR: The "Why Don't They Use the Eagles?" thing is funny as a joke, but makes less than no sense if you actually think about it.

[Eakin]

Gandalf might not be able to glow-stick away the dragons in the heart of Mordor with Sauron's full attention on them. The Eye also would have noticed the Eagles coming a whole lot sooner than it noticed the hobbits.

As for artillery/archers it isn't a matter of a single arrow finding the target. Launch enough stuff up and SOMEthing will hit.

The Eagle would still have to drop the ring into the volcano, no idea what the ring's effect on an Eagle would be.

Also, it would have been a crappy story.

[GloatingSwine]

Apart from the "you will get ****ing ruled if you try" aspect, the Eagles don't serve you. They might just not do this because your puny concerns are not theirs, and although Gandalf is their mate (because he once healed the king of the eagles after an arrow wound. Oh, wait, you will get ruled because arrows) he's not their boss.

[warty goblin]

There's no damn story by that hypothesis. Between good logic and no story, and needing to ignore one counterfactual nerd hypothesis and having a good story, I know which one I'll take.

[JoshL]

There's an implication (it might even be stated) that the more magic you are, the faster the One Ring corrupts. That's why they had a hobbit carry it...they have so little magic (and even then, they aren't immune, it just takes a while). Giant talking eagles definitely count as magic!

[Xondoure]

There's an implication (it might even be stated) that the more magic you are, the faster the One Ring corrupts. That's why they had a hobbit carry it...they have so little magic (and even then, they aren't immune, it just takes a while). Giant talking eagles definitely count as magic!

That's not true. Hobbits have innate magic that allows them to hide better than the other races.

[Wyntonian]

Also, recall when Frodo offered the ring to Gandalf? Or Galadriel? And how they went on that powertrip about how it would increase their already immense power?

Yeah, from what I understand the Eagles are cut from the same cloth, as aspects/avatars/somethings of Manwe. It's possible that they would have reacted the same way, and I certainly wouldn't want them to be having second thoughts when dangling in their claws at cruising altitude.

[Eakin]

There's an implication (it might even be stated) that the more magic you are, the faster the One Ring corrupts. That's why they had a hobbit carry it...they have so little magic (and even then, they aren't immune, it just takes a while). Giant talking eagles definitely count as magic!

I don't think it's 'how magic you are' but rather how ambitious you are or how much you value power. Hobbits weren't immune to the ring because they couldn't hear its offers, they were resistant because the ring didn't offer them anything that they wanted. Even so, Frodo gave in eventually because the ring is Just That Good.

[Tavar]

Also because proximity matters(at least, that's what I think Tolkien said at one point).

[ThiagoMartell]

Tolkien went on record soon after the release and said "because I didn't think of it and it would be a poor story".

[zlefin]

so many haters in this thread :P
the eagle plan is definitely viable, viable isn't the same thing as would succeed; it certainly has some risks.
It also depends on several questions and points:
1) visibility; waiting for some nice cloud coverage would make it a little easier; but how detectable are high power individuals? e.g. gandalf, galadriel. Regardless of sight, if you have a bunch of powerful people in a group, they may be far easier to note.
While the naz got close to the ring, after the fellowship broke up, sauron had little idea where the ring was; so the signal it gives off isn't that glaring most of the time; it's mostly when the ring is worn that it gives off a strong signal. some of the times of almost being caught weren't because of sauron actively looking for trhe ring there; but just because there's a lot of bad guys all over the place.
2) base defenses; how heavily defended is moutn doom normally? By good's estimates, sauron didn't consider ring drop a possibility; so while mordor in general would be rather full, how well guarded mount doom is is an open question; esp how many archers, and how high up the defenderse are; since the strike force just has to land and work its way to the magma chamber; it doesn't need to deal with garrisons lower down.

Also, based on sauron's reactions in the book; if he detected an eagle force full of big names heading towards the area; he woudln't guess a ring drop immediately, but an attempt to send an uber-assassin squad against him;
also, depending on eagle flight path, and how often he has sight of them, there might only be hours worth of warning.

3) eagles' willingness to help: big open question obviously.
4) strike force strength: a well designed strike force woudnl't consist of the fellowship, half of those guys are weak; it'd consist of around 15-30 people, them being the good fighters in the fellowship + galadriel, elrond, glorfindel, and anyone else they can gather who's a top notch fighter (there must be some more pretty good elves in rivendell and lorien). some would have magic; all would be equipped with the best gear the good guys can muster.
it's pretty clear that such a strike force would be stronger than the naz; based on how most of the naz can't 1v1 any of the big names.

5) time; i checked some lotr maps; and from the map legends i'm seeing rivendell to mt doom is around 1000 miles. typical eagle flight speeds are aroudn 30 mph for cruising based on online searches; these giant eagles are noted as being fast, though they would be laden; so they'd probably still be at least 25 ish, maybe considerably higher. It's not clear how long these eagles can normally carry people for; i don't recall them being migratory; but migratory birds do cross oceans, so the eagles doing all 1000 miles in one go should be feasible (especially if tehy can be fuelled with lembas, or beorn honey, or something the elves can make).
So once the operation starts it should be 40 hours or less until they reach mt doom; could be as little as 20-30 hours.
If the birds are normally migratory, they might be able to conceal their objective some by going along such a path.


It would clearly be a pretty risky operation, but so was the plan they used anyways; mostly it woulda been boring though (or at least really short)

PS i just checked eagle flight heights a bit online, around 2 miles is their max; not sure where giant eagles would have for a max flying height; and not sure how high the mountains around mordor are; but 1-2 miles high most of the way will be safe vs anything that doesn't fly that high; might also be darn hard to see on a cloudy day.

[Anarion]

I think Water_Bear's point about Frodo being unable to bring himself to drop the ring is the critical problem with the eagle plan. All the big names agree that beating Sauron isn't possible as long as the ring is around because it's got too much of his essence in it. They either use the ring and replace him or they destroy the ring.

So, sure, you could send a concentrated force of elves, wizards, and leaders of men and probably fight their way to Mt. Doom. But what happens then? Frodo can't drop the ring and probably tries to leave or claim it for himself. Or both. At that point someone tries to take it from him. I'd put my money on Gandalf personally, but I think Galadriel is close, so let's say one of those two ends up with it. They overthrow Sauron and take his place, then conquer the world and usher in an era of darkness. Or some hero cuts off one of their fingers and we repeat the process a couple ages down the road.

[Dr.Epic]

And that the Eagles are lazy. I can't counter that one.

The eagles are their own independent race that didn't want to be dragged into a war. Just like the ents.

[Friv]

Tolkien went on record soon after the release and said "because I didn't think of it and it would be a poor story".

I think you are wrong. I can't find any reference to that, although I have found references to Tolkien never having been asked about the eagles in the first place on the Tolkien wiki.

Anyway.

When you have a host of evidence that suggests that something is not possible, and a theory that it is possible, and no one did it, you have not got a plot hole, you have evidence that the thing in question is not, in fact, possible.

*EDIT* In conclusion, Operation Eagle Drop is about as realistic as the Endorian holocaust, and is actually very similar - it's funny, you can manipulate the facts to make it work, but it is clearly not intended to be a reasonable solution given the information in the primary work.

[ThiagoMartell]

I think you are wrong. I can't find any reference to that, although I have found references to Tolkien never having been asked about the eagles in the first place on the Tolkien wiki.

Anyway.

When you have a host of evidence that suggests that something is not possible, and a theory that it is possible, and no one did it, you have not got a plot hole, you have evidence that the thing in question is not, in fact, possible.

I could be wrong, I think I read that on Cracked. I don't care enough to look it up.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I never considered the idea of the Ring corrupting an eagle.

That. Is. Terrifying.

[The_Snark]

Further issue with this plan: how exactly do you get ahold of the Eagles? Not only are we unsure whether they'd be willing/able to carry somebody that far, nobody has any reliable way of contacting them to ask. The Eagles usually just turn up when they think they're needed, and they're not omniscient.

I suppose the Council could have decided to wait and hope an eagle showed up at Rivendell, but that doesn't sound like a very promising plan with Sauron on the move.

[Anarion]

Further issue with this plan: how exactly do you get ahold of the Eagles? Not only are we unsure whether they'd be willing/able to carry somebody that far, nobody has any reliable way of contacting them to ask. The Eagles usually just turn up when they think they're needed, and they're not omniscient.

I suppose the Council could have decided to wait and hope an eagle showed up at Rivendell, but that doesn't sound like a very promising plan with Sauron on the move.

Lock Gandalf in a tall tower without a covered roof. It worked once, it should work again.

[Hopeless]

Remember that bit about the gaze of Sauron?

Great big lidless eyes looking around and you saw Sam and Frodo trying to stay out of its view?

The ring is impervious to fire those Eagles aren't... they try flying to Mount Doom that eye burns them to a crisp and then sends a patrol to check on the remains... Gandalf has the ring of fire big deal Frodo the bearer of the ring doesn't, halflings are small and great at stealth the best chance of getting that ring to that volcano is in the hands of something Sauron nor his minions would consider a threat... thats where the hobbits come in!

Eagles?

Whilst Sauron can "see" them not a chance!

Yes its three movies about alot of walking, thats because it was the only way to remain unseen by Sauron and the Fellowship even with Gandalf wouldn't have stood a chance against all of the Nine Riders thats why Arwen ran rather than stood and fought and even Glorfindel in the book did the same!

[Worira]

... Why do you think Sauron has the power to set fire to things by looking at them? That makes no sense at all.

[Water_Bear]

... Why do you think Sauron has the power to set fire to things by looking at them? That makes no sense at all.

It's one of the big differences between the movies and the books. In the books, Sauron was a corporeal dude chilling off-screen, commanding armies of all kinds of bizarre creatures who acted as a massive living spy network and were often badass enough to harry the Fellowship on their own. In the movies, they cut a lot of those scenes but kept the "he sees everything!" angle, so they made him a giant nuclear eyeball, and in the third movie made his gaze literally burn the ground making stone smoke.

While I actually like the movies more than the books, and I think the "Fiery Eye" thing is more menacing, it makes a lot of stuff less clear. Like, how is he going to wear the Ring? Just drop it in there? Does Barad-Dur have a finger?

[Aotrs Commander]

Remember, the only reason that the Fellowship succeeded in getting the ring in was them banking on the fact that Sauron was either so arrogant he didn't think anyone would want to destroy the ring (or perhaps, sufficiently confident that all the races he knew about were sufficiently susceptible to it's corruption they'd never NOT be corruprted into wanting to use it at some point - and in that regard, he might have been right!) and because they made a big massive distraction by Aragorn going in and shouting "Oi, Sauron, I dare you to kill us in the face!", palantir and army and all.

If they had just flown eagles in (HISHE notwithstanding, as hilarious as that was!), Sauron's gaze would have been on them, and the full weight of Mordor would have been on them. Nevermind the Nazgul coming to turn the eagles into paste, the big danger would be Sauron would just look at the Ringbearer and slap his will on them and bang, job done, one way or another. (Remember just before the parting of the Fellowship, Frodo came within scant inches of being detected and dominated, and was only saved by Sauron looking elsewhere when distracted.)

IF the Fellowship had not been split, then a plan which the army after Pellanor Fields attacked simultaneously with the Eagles making a quick dash to Mount Doom (as they did to rescue Frodo and Sam) MIGHT have worked - but then again, you could argue they only got away with that because Sauron detected them at the last minute and the ring was destroyed before anyone could get there. Maybe.

But, in the end, you would still have needed the massive distraction to keep Sauron's gaze elsewhere, otherwise - shockingly - he would have detected and dealt with the interlopers in short order.

On top of that, you weren't ever going to have been able to drop the Ring into the volcano in the first place. For a kick off, simple physics says that the further you drop it up from, the less chance you can get of hitting it, plus the updraft of the volcano (which would fry and/or suffocate you at low level anyway - note that the Eagles did not actually need to go anywhere near the fumes to rescue Frodo and Sam) would send an item as light as a ring all over the shop. Things do not fall straight down, regardless of what cartoons and TV would have you beleive. The Ring is not a bomb several orders of magnitude heavier and less prone to dispersion (and even unguided bombs that are aerodynamic have appalling accuracy, often measured in "in the right square mile if you're lucky in WW2 with bomb sights and a trained crew.")

And the consequences of what would happen if you missed and the Ring drops down some crevasse somewhere are disasterous. You would be looking for a literal needle in a haystack, and to find it and get it up the slope very quickly, while Sauron not only has Uber Detection Powers if he knows where he's looking (and at that juncture, he would), but he could afford the time the West couldn't.

And then, even more pertinently, there is a very real possibility the Ring would just say "nope. Y'ain't gonna do that, mate" and not let the ringbearer tak it off to drop it in the first place. (Unless you chucked the ringbearer off the eagle, I suppose, but I'm thinking that seems rather dark for LotR.)

[Renegade Paladin]

*EDIT* In conclusion, Operation Eagle Drop is about as realistic as the Endorian holocaust, and is actually very similar - it's funny, you can manipulate the facts to make it work, but it is clearly not intended to be a reasonable solution given the information in the primary work.

Considerably less so, actually, considering that absent outside interference, destroying a moon-sized object that bears a reactor capable of outputting enough power to destroy a planet in low orbit of a planet would inevitably cause widespread destruction on the planet, whereas eagles carrying the Ring wouldn't make the bearer more likely to chuck the Ring in the volcano. You have to come up with theories for why the Endor Holocaust didn't happen, not pretend that there's no reason why it would. (Fortunately there are at least two very plausible ones.)

[Sinfonian]

It should also be mentioned that the Eagles are likely still prone to ill effects from things like weather, such as the snow on Caradhras that sent them to Moria in the first place, and perhaps even more so than the Walkers. Ever see birds fly through virtually any kind of weather, other than relative calm? It generally doesn't go smoothly. Now imagine that the bird is carrying something that it vitally doesn't want to drop, like a living thing that wants to keep living. Watch the Fellowship get detoured another week out of their way because a low pressure system moved in across Rohan. ADVENTURE HO!

Also, I realize that the summoning of the storm was an invention of the movie, but that sort of thing doesn't seem out of place in the scope of things. I could easily see that being possible for a being like Sauron to pull off, which would drastically impact the Eagle!Fellowship's progress.

[Traab]

The eagles are their own independent race that didn't want to be dragged into a war. Just like the ents.

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[Water_Bear]

Also, I realize that the summoning of the storm was an invention of the movie, but that sort of thing doesn't seem out of place in the scope fo things. I could easily see that being possible for a being like Sauron to pull off, which would drastically impact the Eagle!Fellowship's progress.

Actually, in the book it was heavily implied that Carhadras (the mountain itself!) summoned the storm, a theory Gandalf seemed to accept. Whether it was a "natural" storm, the mountain just being ornery, or it was operating under orders from Sauron is unknown but it's not unreasonable to think Sauron could cause ill weather similar to that, especially in the area around Mordor which was already under his shadow.

[Starbuck_II]

There's an implication (it might even be stated) that the more magic you are, the faster the One Ring corrupts. That's why they had a hobbit carry it...they have so little magic (and even then, they aren't immune, it just takes a while). Giant talking eagles definitely count as magic!

Except Tom B was immune. Tom has more magic than Gandalf (uses it more often as well). But Tom is immune. So since the author denies that Tom is a god, having more magic can't make you corrupt faster.

... Why do you think Sauron has the power to set fire to things by looking at them? That makes no sense at all.

Heck, if he could, why didn't he when he still in full power? Why did he let a manling cut his finger off he could just burn them all to death?

What is he more power when he has less fingers?!

[GloatingSwine]

It's not even slightly implied that there's a link between magic and the temptations of the One. It's all about ambition and desire to control.

Of all the people in the Fellowship the one most tempted was Boromir, an ordinary nonmagical man.

After the defeat of Sauron it was Isildur, the nonmagical man, rather than Elrond or Cirdan, the elves, who was tempted and chose to keep the One.

The only reasons the Hobbits got as far as they did was that the scope of their ambitions is very small, and neither Frodo or Sam ever truly saw the ring as their own whilst they carried it (until the end).

[Cikomyr]

Screw the whole idea of eagles. There is more important issues at hand.

Why didn't Elrond just sucker-pushed Isildur when they were both standing on top of Mount Doom? And then talk about the "Tragic Hero who sacrificed himself"?

I know it would have been Paladin Code violation, but still...