I obviously don't understand a wizard's power

[danzibr]

Or any other tier 1 for that matter.

I mean, I know they're strong, but it seems to me that an uber charger who wins initiative and has some magic defense piercing would kill anything. Surely I'm missing something, as Wizard is tier 1 and Barbarian is tier 4.

[Greenish]

Charging is easy to block. Not all magic can be pierced.

That's assuming the wizard can actually be hurt by mere damage, which isn't a given.

[Edit]: Not that 1 vs. 1 combat has much to do with how the classes are tiered.

[Telonius]

Or any other tier 1 for that matter.

I mean, I know they're strong, but it seems to me that an uber charger who wins initiative and has some magic defense piercing would kill anything. Surely I'm missing something, as Wizard is tier 1 and Barbarian is tier 4.

You're missing the Celerity spell line from PHB2. The spells' casting time is "one immediate action." This mean that, if it ever really matters, the wizard doesn't lose initiative. He casts Celerity, then moves out of the way of the charge, to a place that would be inaccessible to the enemies until his next turn. Or he Plane Shifts. Or casts Time Stop. Or does any number of things to ruin the charger's day. (One of my favorites, just for comedic effect, is "Wall of Iron" cast three inches from the charger's face).

[Yora]

As I understand the common classifications of tiers, the system does not actually state that a higher tier class will always win in a fight against a lower tier class.
Tier 4 classes have only a single trick, but this trick might actually be very effective. On the other hand, tier 1 classes have solutions for about every possible situation.

So yes, if a barbarian gets an opportunity to make a first strike against a wizard, he might quite likely kill him. But only then! If he doesn't kill him before the wizard gets his turn, the wizard has dozens of ways to find the time to buff up and dispose of the barbarian from a safe distance.
On the other hand, if the wizard gets the first action and it fails, that's not really a problem since he is able to take his time and try other things.

Also, the main focus of the game is not characters of equal level against each other, but characters working together against monsters. If you face a monster that doesn't care if it has a huge axe in it's face, and there are a lot of them, the barbarian is pretty much out of options. A decent wizard is never out of options. There's at least in theory a spell that should deal with the problem without much trouble.

[LordBlades]

Simplest way to address your case: contingent teleport in case wizard loses initiative. Ubercharger wins initiative, wizard teleports away. Next round he (quickened preferably but not mandatory) Teleports back in, activates Celerity (and Timestop if high enough level) and proceeds to kill said uberchager.

On the most general chase: ubercharger is a powerful trick when it works, but it only works in quite a limited number of cases: you need to have a charge line to the enemy, and you need to be able to get through the enemy's defenses (miss chances, AC and the like). Wizard on the other hand has a spell combo that's at least as devastating as ubercharging for probably any possible situation in the game.

[KillianHawkeye]

Tiers aren't about power, they're about versatility.

Sure, and uber-charger can do a shed load of damage, but that's about all they're good for. Wizards can eliminate threats without dealing damage at all, plus take care of the party's transportation needs, safe places to rest, bypass obstacles, etc., etc., etc.

[Yuki Akuma]

You're missing the Celerity spell line from PHB2. The spells' casting time is "one immediate action."

You're aware that you can't take immediate actions when you're flat-footed, right..?

[LordBlades]

You're aware that you can't take immediate actions when you're flat-footed, right..?

Not until lvl 17. After that there is just no excuse not to have Foresight up at all times.

[ILM]

Or any other tier 1 for that matter.

I mean, I know they're strong, but it seems to me that an uber charger who wins initiative and has some magic defense piercing would kill anything. Surely I'm missing something, as Wizard is tier 1 and Barbarian is tier 4.

Wizards (full casters in general) have so many tricks to prevent that from happening that a well-played one will be able to keep that from happening, ever. Celerity just puts the nail in the coffin, but really all you needed in your scenario above is Fly, a spell any wizard gets at level 5. Hell, levitate would work in most cases and you'd get that at level 3. Displacement, Mirror Image, line-of-sight obsuring tricks and the like make it pretty hard for the barbarian to hit the wizard. Sure, the barb has ways to defeat each layer of defense a wizard puts up, but he'll always be playing catch-up.

Of course, you could always set up the perfect ambush but then, even a commoner with a heavy pick or something can coup de grâce an overconfident level 20 in his sleep, yet nobody's claiming commoner > epic-ready PC.

Plus, a caster has so many options for all the other situations that don't involve HULK SMASH moments.

[Greenish]

The tier system is explained here, and you might also want to take a look at here and at some popular wizard guides.

[ILM]

Not until lvl 17. After that there is just no excuse not to have Foresight up at all times.

Yes there is: 10 min/CL duration.

[Cog]

Two hours covers a lot of adventuring.

[Eldan]

But it's not always.

Anyways, even at low levels, simple things like Grease, Glitterdust and Levitation make life hell for a charger.

[Claudius Maximus]

It's hardly impossible to hit CL 72. You can even get away with the admittedly much more manageable 36 if you cast it twice.

Anyway wizards and the like consistently beat melee types in the Test of Spite, even in the more melee-friendly cases when there were, for example, no buff rounds. Class tier was actually a pretty decent judge of expected performance.

[Eldan]

With a few notable exceptions, like the Samurai intimidator.

[McSmack]

The tier system isn't about power. It's about power AND versatility. A high level wizard has access to so many spells and abilities that they have literally dozens of ways of dealing with any situation. They can fill the same role as many other classes and in most cases do their job better than the original.

So with tier 1's they not only have the power to deal with any situation. They have the versatility to have options in how they deal with those situations.

[Calintares]

What if this wizard cast overland flight this morning, as most wizards at a high level would? What if the wizard used some sort of divination to know he'd encounter a hostile charger and prepared a contengiency casting improved invisibility/teleport/whatever at sight of an enemy? what if the wizard cast wall of stone arround your charger?

[Alchemistmerlin]

Or any other tier 1 for that matter.

I mean, I know they're strong, but it seems to me that an uber charger who wins initiative and has some magic defense piercing would kill anything. Surely I'm missing something, as Wizard is tier 1 and Barbarian is tier 4.

Every time you use the word "Tier" in a non-competitive game environment, fun dies a horrible, painful death.

God, what has happened to this game, I feel like I'm on the smash bros. forums and people are banana-gaming all over the place.

[Yora]

True, true. I've never been to dicefreaks, but I think they can't be any more into power gaming than this forum.

[Tyndmyr]

You're aware that you can't take immediate actions when you're flat-footed, right..?

Contingent celerity is a solid way to fix this until you get foresight. Alternately, be a dire tortoise to always act in the surprise round.

This is at least moderate levels of optimization, though. Much like uberchargers who kill in a round. The tier system is really more about flexibility, not who can one shot who.

[Greenish]

Every time you use the word "Tier" in a non-competitive game environment, fun dies a horrible, painful death.

Tiers were defined for fun, by people who don't enjoy a game where someone has a canoe and another a carrier.

But of course you're entitled to your condescension.

[Eldan]

True, true. I've never been to dicefreaks, but I think they can't be any more into power gaming than this forum.

Eh. I think most people are not really "into" power gaming. As far as I see it, this discussion, and discussions like it aren't "you are doing it wrong if you aren't playing a wizard!", they are more "these are problems with 3.5 balance, you should watch out for them."

[Alchemistmerlin]

Tiers were defined for fun, by people who don't enjoy a game where someone has a canoe and another a carrier.

But of course you're entitled to your condescension.

As you are entitled to your No Items, Fox Only, Final Destination.

[Yuki Akuma]

Every time you use the word "Tier" in a non-competitive game environment, fun dies a horrible, painful death.

God, what has happened to this game, I feel like I'm on the smash bros. forums and people are banana-gaming all over the place.

What word would you prefer, then? Rank? Level?

Tiers are designed so people can see that, oh, wait, maybe a party made up of a Wizard, an Artificer, a Druid and a Monk isn't the best plan.

[Vladislav]

In summary, the ubercharger is Tier 4, because that's all he can do - charge. Any problem that can't be solved by charging and hitting with a pointy chunk of metal, he can't solve.

A social encounter? He has nothing, while the Wizard has Charm Person, Suggestion, Detect Thoughts, etc.
A door too strong to be physically broken? He has nothing, while the Wizard has Knock and Dimension Door.
The bad guy turned invisible and fled in an unknown direction? He has nothing, while the Wizard has a plethora of divination spells.
Surrounded by a clan of Stone Giants, too many to fight toe to toe? He has nothing, while the Wizard can go Invisible or Teleport or cast Confusion, or Gaseous Form.

And so on. The list could be easily extended.

[Cog]

Meh. I can understand the frustration. All too often I see comments like "Battle Sorcerer is a trap!" when it's tier 3 or more probably low tier 2.

The intent of the tier system is to help people play together on the same level and get along without overshadowing. There's plenty of people here who respect it on that level, too. There's just plenty who don't as well.

[shadow_archmagi]

Or any other tier 1 for that matter.

I mean, I know they're strong, but it seems to me that an uber charger who wins initiative and has some magic defense piercing would kill anything. Surely I'm missing something, as Wizard is tier 1 and Barbarian is tier 4.

The tier system is designed to measure power within the normal game framework. Your Ubercharger is on an adventure, he comes to a chasm. What does he do?

Your Ubercharger comes to a village where the people are plagued by disease. What does he do?

Your Ubercharger comes to a city, and is commissioned by the mayor to hunt down the local Slaneesh cult. What does he do?

Your Ubercharger now has to defend the city from a massive demonic invasion. What does he do?


The Barbarian is Tier 4 because even if you Optimize one really well, he can still only participate by dealing lots of damage.

Wizards can cure plagues, move mountains, build walls, burn forests, interrogate the dead, banish the demons, and so on. And builds like The Mailman are still happy to deal out lots and lots of damage.

Tier rating is perhaps best measured this way:

When the DM starts describing a problem, how likely is it that you'll be able to contribute, and how much?

[Feytalist]

What word would you prefer, then? Rank? Level?

Tiers are designed so people can see that, oh, wait, maybe a party made up of a Wizard, an Artificer, a Druid and a Monk isn't the best plan.

It's fine if they want to play that. The issue is with optimization over enjoyment. If the group as a whole enjoys the game as they play it, then there is no harm, and coincidentally, the whole point of D&D is realized.

It's only when gamers come in with their power gaming tactics that the game gets broken. I imagine that's why the tiers were invented. For the optimizers.

The point of the game is (was?) not who gets to press the save-or-die button first, but simply fun. And that's possible with any combination of characters and classes, if the players have the right mindset.

[Eldan]

Obviously:

Your Ubercharger is on an adventure, he comes to a chasm. What does he do?

Charge a cliff to create a landslide to fill the chasm.

Your Ubercharger comes to a village where the people are plagued by disease. What does he do?


I charge the bacteria.

Your Ubercharger comes to a city, and is commissioned by the mayor to hunt down the local Slaneesh cult. What does he do?


Charge the mayor. It's always the mayor.

Your Ubercharger now has to defend the city from a massive demonic invasion. What does he do?

Charge the demons.

I fail to see the problem
Charging is like explosives: if it can't solve a problem, you need more of it.

[Cog]

I imagine that's why the tiers were invented. For the optimizers.

Well, there's your problem. You're imagining instead of finding out, or even just listening to the people here telling you otherwise.