General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[a_humble_lich]

The Scroll of Errata very clearly says they can learn spirit Charms.

Wow, you're right. I don't like that--I see spirit charms not as something that can be learned but as something that is part of a god's job and being. Arcanoi on the other hand are tricks that a ghost learns. Also spirit charms are much better, why would any ghost learn Arcanoi when spirit charms do the same thing but cheaper and better?

[Kylarra]

Where does it say that, might I ask? The only part I found is that they have no access to Excellencies (which, technically, still holds true).

Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 112
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

[a_humble_lich]

Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 141
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

Hmmm, I like this better (But I have that quote on page 112 )

[The Rose Dragon]

Roll of Glorious Divinity II p 141
"Ghosts may not learn the Charms of Exalts or spirits."

That page says no such thing for me. In fact, it has one and a half Arcanoi descriptions, and the beginning of the Shifting Ghost-Clay Path.

Doing a quick search for that sentence reveals it does say so in page 112, but then the question is how is it amusing for errata to fix earlier stuff that was in fault?

[Kylarra]

Hmmm, I like this better (But I have that quote on page 112 )

Argh. Sorry. I have no idea how 141 got up there. It is indeed 112.

[Rockphed]

Yeah.

"Gonna kill a god with your fists and a paperclip? Go ahead! An artifact that obeys the laws of thermodynamics? Sorry, not welcome."

Is not one of the laws of thermodynamics that things always get, in general, less ordered? Is not another that you cannot create energy without taking it from somewhere? I can see an artifact that absorbs your enemies and turns them into motes for you to use as being reasonable, yes?

I think the only reason the writers stipulate that all Exalted must be heroic in some manner is because they don't want Solars who just want to live quiet lives on a farm somewhere in the middle of nowhere.

I think you have insufficient imagination if you think "Live a quiet life on a farm in the middle of nowhere" is not a heroic motivation. There was, after all, that greek guy who led 40,000 troops out of Persia after all their generals got killed. He didn't lose a single soldier. Or consider George Washington who after ruling the US like a king for 8 years walked away from it all to spend time on his farm. Or consider Odysseus who spent 10 years trying to get home. In short, wanting to live a quiet life is only non-heroic if you already are living a quiet life. If you are in the middle of a war, wanting to get home to the family farm can lead to lots of heroism.

All this talk of "You Can Be More" has kinda got me thinking: If some crazy group of Solars somehow managed to YCBM say.. half of the mortals in Creation, what do you think would be the result? What about if they somehow got to like.. 95% of the mortals? Do you think everyone would starve? Or maybe all the heroicness running rampant means /someone/ comes up with a perpetual food source.

Either way it seems like a pretty awesome motivation.

Far from starving, creation would probably enjoy a food surplus not seen in a thousand years. As I understand it, "Heroic" means more "large scale and impressive" than "beat people up and take their stuff." So a heroically motivated farmer will look at his measly farm and the acres sitting unused next to it and figure out how to make them all blossom without his needing much more effort. Or he will just put in 20 hour days, work his cows nearly to death, and farm the whole thing the old way. His brother might decide to see the world, or at least the next town over, and next thing ya know, there is a new trade route open. Their cousin might decide to "heroically" sleep with every woman in town who he isn't related to. Make sense?

[Rikandur Azebol]

In short, don't try to steal sheep from Heroic Farmer Bob !

World where everyone is capable of heroism certainly have a nice ring to it. Of course there would be a LOOT more "heroically lazy" folks too.

[Xefas]

I think the closest you would get to Heroically Lazy would be Heroically Hedonistic.

[Rikandur Azebol]

I think the closest you would get to Heroically Lazy would be Heroically Hedonistic.

I'm talking here about "kill them and take their stuff" type of heroically lazy.^^

[Cyborg Mage]

Tavar, can I ask that this be added to the Recruiting Games list?

[IcarusWings]

We need someone to run a game with five players, who just take control of five Deathlords, they forsake absolutely all resources, connections, and authority aside from what is physically on their person at the time, and just form a Circle and go personally wipe out Creation by wandering around killing things and taking their stuff.

EDIT: For easy mode, you could even have it happen before the Great Contagion. Instead of "giant world-ending plague followed by fair folk crusade", the Deathlords ultimate evil scheme for ending the world could be "Become adventuring hobos".

I'd be interested in this

[Volthawk]

Also, on the whole Heroic Mortals living on a farm thing, 'the middle of nowhere' can be kinda dangerous anyway. I mean, shadowlands, the Wyld, the various big beasties, celestial exalts trying to evade the Wyld Hunt, the Wyld Hunt, if you live by a village, the Dowager doing her children kidnapping thing...

[TheCountAlucard]

As an Exalted noob, I humbly request a more thorough explanation of this.

Sure thing.

The Yozi reclamation (barring PC actions in RotSE, etc) is successful.

Err, no, it isn't. The only one who gets out (barring PC actions in RotSE) is the Ebon Dragon. Look at the West; the Western front for the Reclamation actually fails without PC involvement. Even if they succeed, you don't see scenarios in which Malfeas emerges triumphant in the East, transmuting every inch of land into verdegrised brass as he roars his victory to the heavens.

The Reclamation itself is a wash; the Ebon Dragon never intended for any of the Yozis to escape except for himself. The only thing that could've made their impossible escape possible is the Green Sun Princes, and the likelihood of them remaining loyal enough to do so considering what the Yozis do to them makes it even less possible.

Thus, the Yozis except for Ebon Dragon are stupid because they fell for Ebon Dragon's tricks again. And the Ebon Dragon is stupid for a plethora of reasons.

The Deathlords carve out large swaths of Creation for themselves.

...and then do nothing afterward. Nothing. Also consider briefly that "carving out large swaths of Creation for themselves" is far below their capabilities. Well, most of 'em, anyway. Screw Walker in Darkness.

Thorns falls.

Thorns means nothing. Thorns is but a lark, by which Mask of Winters shows off his new enslaved behemoth and gets to tell his bosses that he isn't just sitting on his thumbs.

Not only that, but if we're going with the RotSE discussion, Thorns may very well get nuked by the Realm Defense Grid.

The Silver Prince's necro-fleet approaches completion. What is it that makes them so stupid?

Actually, that one's a little less stupid.

The Deathlords are stupid, cause they didn't start invading sooner. Seriously, the Death Lords according to others are so powerful (solar circle sorcery, sidereal martial arts, all or many solar charms...) that its basically a wonder why they haven't just stormed creation all on their own with the crazy overpowered stuff they have.

Mind you, those of us who generally point this stuff out also think it was a rather bad move to make them so stupidly-powerful, but still...

RotSE assumes that a very low probability event happens: their insane plan to exploit a loophole in a magical contract they swore to that allows them to walk Creation once again...

Not really. See above... Ebby's the only one that manages to escape, and he's stupid for pointlessly-betraying his brothers and sisters; can you imagine the torments they'll inflict on him when the Exalted host tosses him back down there? That's the nice option.

That and they trust the Ebon Dragon. to many people, thats stupidity enough.

This.

as for Neverborn....I don't got any info on them, but I've heard that they are in eternal pain and can't move.....so I'm guessing they are going crazy (well crazier than normal Yozis/Primordials) to the point where they can't stand their pain anymore and want everything destroyed so that it all somehow stops their pain or something. i have honestly no idea.

The Neverborn are stupid for being such petulant, obsessive children who refuse to acknowledge an existence beyond the toy that was taken from them by the bully who knocked them down. If they could stop obsessing over Creation, chances are that they could either fall into Oblivion or reform in the Wyld to go find another playground, whichever suits them.

again, none of this is my opinion, to me they are what villains are supposed to be: competent, clever, but royally screwed up in the head, which makes them the villains.

Well, of course not. The Yozis and Neverborn shouldn't be made to be the setting's antagonists. They've already been defeated; where's the story in that? And the Deathlords? They're training their replacements.

Among the Deathlords, the Silver Prince is probably the most competent, yes.

Eh, I'm sure he's got something stupid up his sleeve.

It is not an environment conducive to forward-thinking cooperation.

Also this.

[Yuki Akuma]

So, on reading up on God-Bloods for this story I'm writing, I've discovered something odd...

Half-Castes are specifically called out as being unable to learn perfect defenses. Makes sense.

God-Bloods (that is, actual children of gods or elementals), however, can learn Divine Dodge(/Melee/Martial Arts) Subordination, which can be used as a 5m, 1 wp perfect dodge(/parry).

I don't quite understand the charm text, though. It says "whether the attack can be blocked or dodged". Does that mean it doesn't work on undodgeable/unblockable attacks?

Either way, a Terrestrial-level PD isn't bad for a God-Blood.

[Sanguine]

God-Bloods (that is, actual children of gods or elementals), however, can learn Divine Dodge(/Melee/Martial Arts) Subordination, which can be used as a 5m, 1 wp perfect dodge(/parry)

Uhm, no they can't. That's an Essence 5 Charm. God-Bloods only go to Essence 3.

[TheCountAlucard]

Oh, forgot something...

General Exalt Discussion?

[Yuki Akuma]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional.

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

Here's the specific text if you don't believe me.

God-Blooded are not the natural fonts of Essence their parents are. Their permanent Essence begins at 1, though this can be raised during character creation with bonus points. No God-Blooded can begin play with an Essence greater than 3, as their mortal natures limit them in this regard. In truth, few God-Blooded ever rise beyond that level in their entire lives, though players’ characters are exceptional and often buck such trends. To reflect this difficulty in transcending their human limitations, the cost to raise Essence from 2 to 3 is 15 bonus points, and all experience costs to raise Essence to 3 or above for God-Blooded are increased by half-again the normal cost. Storytellers should feel free to cap Essence for God-Blooded at 3 if they wish or put special requirements on advancement such as quests or endowment from powerful magical beings.

So basically STs can cap them at 3 or make them go on arduous quests but they can just let them spend a ton of XP on refining their Essence instead.

[Sanguine]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional.

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

I'm fairly certain it's a hard cap. For instance if a Ghost-Blood hits Essence 4 they die and become a ghost. I'll see if I can find a page reference for that.

Edit: Huh. Don't remember that.

[Yuki Akuma]

So yes.

Truly exceptional God-Bloods can learn a Terrestrial-level PD, while Half-Castes are specifically called out as being absolutely unable to learn PDs.

Discuss.

Edit: I think I found what you were thinking of.

In addition to the increased costs, raising Essence beyond 3 often has special complications for God-Blooded. Most simply cannot surpass this level, and those who do often find they must undergo a transformation that makes them something more supernatural than mortal. For example, a Ghost-Blood who raises her Essence to 4 might find the increase in power kills her and turns her into a full ghost. A God-Blood might transcend and become a full god. In these cases, many mutations will naturally be lost and should be converted into experience to purchase similar Charms available to the type of creature the character is now. (See “Inheritance,” p. 127, for experience values of various mutations.) The loss of negative mutations in this manner will create a similar experience deficit to be paid off with current or future experience. These changes should not be simply a matter of paying the experience and rearranging some numbers.they represent a fundamental and lasting change in the very nature of the God-Blood.

Notice the fact that it uses words like "often", "might" and "may". No definites. Exceptional Essence 5 God-Bloods are possible, just really, really unlikely.

I like to think a protagonist with Destiny 5 qualifies. :P

[Sanguine]

So yes.

Truly exceptional God-Bloods can learn a Terrestrial-level PD, while Half-Castes are specifically called out as being absolutely unable to learn PDs.

Discuss.

That's stupid and the rule against PDs should be universal among God-Bloods. The writers most likely thought Perfects were an Exalt only thing.

[Volthawk]

Can't say I'm too familiar with god-bloods and half-castes, but I suppose it could be something like: Exaltation is an addition to a mortal, while gods have inherent power, so when the god has a child, more power is passed down to the child than the power given to an Exalt's child.

[IcarusWings]

The book says God-Bloods normally only go to Essence 3. Storytellers are encouraged to let PCs be exceptional.

I just find it odd that alf-Castes are specifically caled out as being unable, while God-Bloods only have the fact that most God-Bloods never exceed Essence 3.

Here's the specific text if you don't believe me.



So basically STs can cap them at 3 or make them go on arduous quests but they can just let them spend a ton of XP on refining their Essence instead.

Yeah, but even if they can go above Essence 3, don't they ascend at that point? So a God-blood learning an Essence 5 perfect dodge can do so because he is now a God. But for a Half-Caste, their method of ascension is Exaltation, which doesn't happen normally but does grant Perfects. So for both of them you can get hold of Perfects after ascension, it's just they ascend in different ways.

That's the way I see it anyway.

[Sanguine]

Can't say I'm too familiar with god-bloods and half-castes, but I suppose it could be something like: Exaltation is an addition to a mortal, while gods have inherent power, so when the god has a child, more power is passed down to the child than the power given to an Exalt's child.

That's already accounted for by their larger Mote Pools and ability to recover motes. The balancing factor for this is supposed to be that Half-Castes get better Charms. Which doesn't hold true if God-Bloods get PDs.

[Yuki Akuma]

So I edited this into my post before other people posted. Just in case it got missed:

In addition to the increased costs, raising Essence beyond 3 often has special complications for God-Blooded. Most simply cannot surpass this level, and those who do often find they must undergo a transformation that makes them something more supernatural than mortal. For example, a Ghost-Blood who raises her Essence to 4 might find the increase in power kills her and turns her into a full ghost. A God-Blood might transcend and become a full god. In these cases, many mutations will naturally be lost and should be converted into experience to purchase similar Charms available to the type of creature the character is now. (See “Inheritance,” p. 127, for experience values of various mutations.) The loss of negative mutations in this manner will create a similar experience deficit to be paid off with current or future experience. These changes should not be simply a matter of paying the experience and rearranging some numbers.they represent a fundamental and lasting change in the very nature of the God-Blood.

No definites, only possibilities.

Likely possibilities, but still.

That's already accounted for by their larger Mote Pools and ability to recover motes. The balancing factor for this is supposed to be that Half-Castes get better Charms. Which doesn't hold true if God-Bloods get PDs.

Yeah, I do think it's probably just a mistake and that all God-Bloods are meant to be incapable of PDs. Scroll of Heroes is hilariously badly written (Archery, Thrown or Brawl? Come on now). I just like that it doesn't specify that God-Bloods can't elarnt hem in general, because it helps with my quest to make my God-Blooded protagonist awesome. :P

Is he a Mary-Sue? A bit, yeah.

[IcarusWings]

We need someone to run an Alchemical game set in Autocthonia.

Seconded, although it might be prudent to wait until after the full Compass comes out.

[The_Snark]

\...and then do nothing afterward. Nothing. Also consider briefly that "carving out large swaths of Creation for themselves" is far below their capabilities. Well, most of 'em, anyway. Screw Walker in Darkness.

Thorns means nothing. Thorns is but a lark, by which Mask of Winters shows off his new enslaved behemoth and gets to tell his bosses that he isn't just sitting on his thumbs.

I think it's important to remember that many of the Deathlords may not actually be all that enthusiastic about their ostensible goals. They're ghosts who refused to move on; their defining characteristic is their inability to let go of their existence. Sure, it's possible that some of them have been won over, and are genuinely working to bring about the end of everything... but I think it's much more likely that the majority of them are putting on a show for their masters while they enjoy their existence as awesomely powerful immortal beings. Sure, they're spiteful and wouldn't mind killing everyone who ever wronged them (and a lot more people besides), but do they want it enough to give that up? Probably not.

Some of them may even be sabotaging the war effort intentionally; you could certainly interpret the conquest of Thorns as the Mask making sure that Oblivion's enemies are aware of the threat, and if the Dowager is correct about the Fair Folk invasion messing up the Great Contagion then there's a similar argument for the Lion (and maybe Eye and Seven Despairs).

Now, the Bishop is probably a true believer. The Dowager is loyal (or at least too convinced of the inevitability of Oblivion to oppose it), but she's also insane, and prefers to work through masterstrokes of mad genius or not at all. The Lover as presented is working towards Oblivion out of sheer boredom, but not very hard; ennui does not make a good motivator.

The Silver Prince hasn't shown his hand yet; he's building up power, but it's anyone's guess what he intends to do with it. He might be loyal, but I could certainly see him trying to seize power for himself instead. It's hard to say anything about Black Heron, because we haven't seen any schemes of hers that weren't aimed mostly at the Lion. Eye of Seven Despairs is simply self-absorbed or incompetent most of the time... unless he's actually a genius feigning incompetence (always an outside possibility) to lure his enemies into a false sense of security, in which case it's he's a wild card.

But the Lion and the Mask, definitely prime candidates for fifth columnists. They're not bumbling. They know exactly what they're doing, thank you very much.

(Actually, a campaign starring the Mask of Winters and the First and Forsaken Lion with this premise sounds like a lot of fun.)

Edit- Oh, right, forgot about Walker in Darkness because he's sorta boring. He can be loyal too, I guess.

The Neverborn are stupid for being such petulant, obsessive children who refuse to acknowledge an existence beyond the toy that was taken from them by the bully who knocked them down. If they could stop obsessing over Creation, chances are that they could either fall into Oblivion or reform in the Wyld to go find another playground, whichever suits them.

That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.

Succumbing to Oblivion is another story; if you think of them as ghosts with Creation as their fetter, I suppose you could make the argument that it's only their attachment that keeps them in their state of tormented half-existence. But I don't think it's fair to say "just get over it already." It's like expecting someone with severe depression or PTSD to just get over it; of course it would be better if they could wish their problems away, but it's not that easy.

[TheCountAlucard]

I think it's important to remember that many of the Deathlords may not actually be all that enthusiastic about their ostensible goals.

One more reason I find their statting out of the Deathlords to be so silly - do you think Mask of Winters' Motivation is really accurate? Think a being as powerful as he is would really fail to bring about the end of existence if it was his Motivation? Either his power level is wrong, or his writeup is wrong.

Sure, it's possible that some of them have been won over, and are genuinely working to bring about the end of everything... but I think it's much more likely that the majority of them are putting on a show for their masters while they enjoy their existence as awesomely powerful immortal beings.

Agreed. Again, though, if that was the case, it should be in their writeup. As it is, however, their writeup implies that they're loyal, but are tremendously-incompetent at their jobs; unfortunately, it's not hard to see the inherent failings here.

Sure, they're spiteful and wouldn't mind killing everyone who ever wronged them (and a lot more people besides), but do they want it enough to give that up? Probably not.

See above.

Some of them may even be sabotaging the war effort intentionally; you could certainly interpret the conquest of Thorns as the Mask making sure that Oblivion's enemies are aware of the threat, and if the Dowager is correct about the Fair Folk invasion messing up the Great Contagion then there's a similar argument for the Lion (and maybe Eye and Seven Despairs).

If the First and Forsaken Lion wanted to, he could Black Faith his way into the Jade Pleasure Dome, and lay some serious whup on the Unconquered Sun, at no personal risk to himself. Either he doesn't really care about ending Creation, or he's even more of a colossal, short-sighted moron than we can imagine. Again, either the Deathlords need to be less-powerful, or their goals aren't really centered on bringing about the end of all things. Or both, that would be acceptable.

The Dowager is loyal (or at least too convinced of the inevitability of Oblivion to oppose it), but she's also insane, and prefers to work through masterstrokes of mad genius or not at all.

Actually, this was how I was running her in my game.

The Silver Prince hasn't shown his hand yet; he's building up power, but it's anyone's guess what he intends to do with it. He might be loyal, but I could certainly see him trying to seize power for himself instead.

I throw my support to this one, simply because it's the more interesting one.

It's hard to say anything about Black Heron, because we haven't seen any schemes of hers that weren't aimed mostly at the Lion.

Sad but true; why even have her be a Deathlord if she's not going to have an impact on the setting?

But the Lion and the Mask, definitely prime candidates for fifth columnists. They're not bumbling. They know exactly what they're doing, thank you very much.

See my previous bit on Mask and FaFL.

That's an... interesting interpretation, but I don't think I've ever seen anything that suggests they could magically come back to life just by wishing it.

I know I've seen it somewhere, and now it's gonna bug me if I don't spend half my day hunting it down.

Succumbing to Oblivion is another story; if you think of them as ghosts with Creation as their fetter, I suppose you could make the argument that it's only their attachment that keeps them in their state of tormented half-existence. But I don't think it's fair to say "just get over it already." It's like expecting someone with severe depression or PTSD to just get over it; of course it would be better if they could wish their problems away, but it's not that easy.

I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

[Jokasti]

Being grounded is fun. What have I missed?
Also, AP exams are in a couple weeks but after that I'll see if I can throw up a recruitment thread.

[Mr.Bookworm]

Eh. 2500 XP is a bit less then what Deathlords actually get, and is a little less then what a 1000 year old Exalted gets. I'd go with the Charms simply for ease of use.

That said, restricting it to Essence 5- Charms, and then having unique panoply Charms for high Essence effects might be a good idea. I'm open to suggestions, if anyone has them.

[Guancyto]

I never meant to imply it was easy, but given that this is Exalted, it's likely far from impossible, especially if the Exalted actually had had the good sense in the First Age to help them let go, instead of going down to their tombs and teabagging them.

That's ridiculous, that is. Helping the Neverborn to move on deprives you of Necromancy, probably makes Soulsteel a nonrenewable resource and the effects on the Underworld itself are completely unknown. Why would anyone try to destroy such a useful resource whose dangers are so very contained?