General Exalted Discussion IV: Roll Join Debate

[Xefas]

please don't be pedantic with me

I'm not being pedantic. And please don't be so melodramatic.

[Lord Raziere]

I'm not being pedantic. And please don't be so melodramatic.

very well, your not pedantic.

but you still cannot deny that a roleplaying game is about taking risks, they just are, unlike other games, more personal since you created the people that are taking the risks and not moved pieces about the board or something.

[Reynard]

Hmm. Well, this roughly reflects my personal measurement for optimization tiers.

Tier 6: You have big die pools.
Tier 5: You have a perfect defense or attack or the closest you can get to it.
Tier 4: You have a combo that includes both attack and defense options.
Tier 3: You have methods to overcome nonstandard attack options, like shaping, illusion, surprise, etc.
Tier 2: You combo them into your standard combat suite.
Tier 1: Paranoia combat.

...well, that's optimization for either (Social or physical) combat, which... should really not be the focus of the game, if only for sanity's sake. But if you want that:

Combat Tier 5: You're a 'support' character, and die instantly if JB is rolled in your vicinity.
Combat Tier 4: As 6, but you splurged some of your charms/bp/xp on getting the easiest-to-access Perfect Defense, and so don't die.
Combat Tier 3: A modicum of combat charms, mostly just an Excellency a couple of assorted treats (incl PD), but you rely on avoiding combat more than winning it.
Combat Tier 2: Decently focused on combat. While there are one or two things that aren't combat-related that you can do, more than a few of your charms and Xp has gone towards being a better fighter.
Combat Tier 1: Your basic, un-charm-enhanced attack is scary enough that anyone you turn your attention to has to PD or die. Outside of combat, you sit around waiting for combat, counting sheep and staying off-scene, training for more charms that you'll never use seriously because of your all-consuming base dice pool and the paranoia that you'll die if you activate any Charm that isn't a PD.

[Yuki Akuma]

Every time you do something thats a challenge you roll dice to see if you succeed, sounds like taking risks to me, that is how life is, that is how roleplaying games are, so you could say that you are playing a role, since you are taking risks like everyone does in real life. No risk, no real point to the role.

I guess you've never played a diceless roleplaying game then, huh?

[Kylarra]

stuff

Huh, my group would be a 4,3, 2x2 and a 1 by those numbers. Interesting. Although our 4 is currently in the process of

training for more charms that you'll never use seriously because of your all-consuming base dice pool and the paranoia that you'll die if you activate any Charm that isn't a PD.

[Lord Raziere]

I guess you've never played a diceless roleplaying game then, huh?

I've played lot of freeform roleplay, but that still doesn't mean there is no risk, there is risk in everything, believing that there isn't is the highest foolishness, for you cannot go through life without acknowledging it.

my first freeform roleplaying game? my character died seventeen times. I was angry at first, but I eventually accepted it and it became a funny running gag.

[DragonSinged]

I've played lot of freeform roleplay, but that still doesn't mean there is no risk, there is risk in everything, believing that there isn't is the highest foolishness, for you cannot go through life without acknowledging it.

my first freeform roleplaying game? my character died seventeen times. I was angry at first, but I eventually accepted it and it became a funny running gag.

If your character died 17 times, then I'm a bit confused as to what the risk is. That it'll be 18? If he's still around after the previous 17, I don't think that's a big deal.

And anyways, it sounds like the point you're trying to make is that there's risk in everything, all the time, but also that there's risk in roleplaying games, and so that risk is what defines roleplaying games? But if there's risk in everything, then of course there's risk in roleplaying games, so that can't really be what defines them. I'm gonna throw my voice in with Xefas here. A roleplaying game is defined by the roleplaying.

[Xefas]

but you still cannot deny that a roleplaying game is about taking risks, they just are, unlike other games, more personal since you created the people that are taking the risks and not moved pieces about the board or something.

To avoid a semantic miscommunication, and hopefully a full thread derailment, I'll simply state that it depends on your definitions of "roleplaying", "game", "risks", etc. And no, I'm not being pedantic. Game design is a legitimate academic field. It is complex.

See Game Theory
Crane and Sorenson's panel, Game Design Is Mind Control
The Forge
The Forge Provisional Glossary

If you want to start a thread on the topic, feel free to do so, but it's off-topic for this one.

[Yuki Akuma]

I've played lot of freeform roleplay, but that still doesn't mean there is no risk, there is risk in everything, believing that there isn't is the highest foolishness, for you cannot go through life without acknowledging it.

my first freeform roleplaying game? my character died seventeen times. I was angry at first, but I eventually accepted it and it became a funny running gag.

Hahah, no.

I mean an actual diceless RPG.

Like Nobilis, for instance.

[Guancyto]

Anyway, buying a Shaping defense and a surprise negator isn't particularly paranoid or risk-averse in Exalted, since Shaping and surprise attacks are two things that will seriously wreck your day if not defended against and are built on the idea that defenses against them are readily available.

If you do a lot of fighting, it's just good sense.

[Turalisj]

Anyway, buying a Shaping defense and a surprise negator isn't particularly paranoid or risk-averse in Exalted, since Shaping and surprise attacks are two things that will seriously wreck your day if not defended against and are built on the idea that defenses against them are readily available.

If you do a lot of fighting, it's just good sense.

Zenith with Solar Hero Style in a sandbox game with fae, lunars and sidereals. Shaping defense is 'have or be screwed around with'.

[Lord Raziere]

Anyway, buying a Shaping defense and a surprise negator isn't particularly paranoid or risk-averse in Exalted, since Shaping and surprise attacks are two things that will seriously wreck your day if not defended against and are built on the idea that defenses against them are readily available.

If you do a lot of fighting, it's just good sense.

really? so I guess if I'm an ST and I see that everyone just has one perfect dodge or something, I'm supposed to throwing a shaping at them? good to know I'm allowed to be a jerk and do instant TPKs [/sarcasm]

[DragonSinged]

really? so I guess if I'm an ST and I see that everyone just has one perfect dodge or something, I'm supposed to throwing a shaping at them? good to know I'm allowed to be a jerk and do instant TPKs [/sarcasm]

Or, taking a more reasonable approach, maybe the ST thinks, "Man. Fair Folk are really interesting! I'd like to have some of them in my game."

And if you think that in an existence where everything is a risk all the time, no one is ever going to think, "Those damn Exalts are wrecking everything! Let's set an ambush for them!"

...Then I guess it's no surprise that your character died 17 times?


EDIT: Not to mention, all it takes to be perfectly defended against Shaping is, what, 1 dot in Integrity and a single charm. Not exactly strenuous requirements.

[Guancyto]

Nice to know my positions are instantly being converted to the most extreme form they could possibly be construed as. It's always fun to see that in the morning.

As always, it depends on the campaign. A Sidereal with Pattern Spider Touch will screw anyone without a Shaping defense. A fae... well, basically any fae ever is ten times more dangerous to someone without one. Heck, even Dragon-Bloods can do incredibly dangerous things with Shaping (see: Essence-Igniting Nerve Strike, Essence Disruption Attack). If you never meet those things, sure, you have no reason to care.

But if you do, the purchase of one (1) Charm with no prereqs and an ability requirement of 1? Is a steal to be able to say 'no' to all that.

[MickJay]

A fairly basic question: if I have a PD, but I'm taken by surprise (which as far as I remember makes normal dodge/parry impossible and sends DVs to 0), is activating PD still possible (assuming it's a parry or dodge based PD)?

[Yuki Akuma]

really? so I guess if I'm an ST and I see that everyone just has one perfect dodge or something, I'm supposed to throwing a shaping at them? good to know I'm allowed to be a jerk and do instant TPKs [/sarcasm]

Hahah wow.

You are aware that the most horrific "you're screwed" effects in the game are Shaping, right? There's a reason for that: Shaping defenses are cheap and easy to get.

Good lord, must you read everything as a personal attack?

A fairly basic question: if I have a PD, but I'm taken by surprise (which as far as I remember makes normal dodge/parry impossible and sends DVs to 0), is activating PD still possible (assuming it's a parry or dodge based PD)?

Yes. If it's a Solar-level PD.

Other PDs restrict you more. If it says it doesn't defend against unblockable/undodgeable attacks, for instance, it doesn't defend against surprise attacks.

[Xefas]

really? so I guess if I'm an ST and I see that everyone just has one perfect dodge or something, I'm supposed to throwing a shaping at them? good to know I'm allowed to be a jerk and do instant TPKs [/sarcasm]

While your assertion is correct (people shouldn't be jerks to each other), this stems from pretty poor game design in general.

If you want some awesome examples of games where it's pretty much impossible for the GM to be a jerkass to his players (accidentally or otherwise) without outright disregarding the mechanics of the game, see the various Vincent Baker games (In a Wicked Age, Poison'd, Apocalypse World, Dogs in the Vineyard).

I think Integrity Protecting Prana and the whole way the Shaping keyword is handled is some of the most egregiously poor design in the entire Exalted system. Not just because it's especially awful, but because it's so obviously so. I'll be the first to deride my 12-year-old brothers intelligence, but I have absolutely no doubt he would be capable of looking at Integrity Protecting Prana and saying "That is some ****ing crap design."

[Feriority]

A fairly basic question: if I have a PD, but I'm taken by surprise (which as far as I remember makes normal dodge/parry impossible and sends DVs to 0), is activating PD still possible (assuming it's a parry or dodge based PD)?

It depends on the PD. Seven Shadows Evasion specifically says that you can't use it with surprise attacks, so you need to use something else to be aware of the attack first, and since it explicitly says that, I would assume there are PDs that do work on unexpected attacks.

[Xefas]

It depends on the PD. Seven Shadows Evasion specifically says that you can't use it with surprise attacks, so you need to use something else to be aware of the attack first, and since it explicitly says that, I would assume there are PDs that do work on unexpected attacks.

Sanguine actually brought this up earlier, and apparently Ablation of Brass and Fire works.

Also, slight tangent, but I just found out that some absolute badass added Dolorous Carnifex Style to the Exalted wiki. I don't know who, but much love, if they're reading this.

[senrath]

According to a statement from one of the Devs that statement in SSE is redundant, and automatically applies to all PDs, whether or not they have that line. It was brought up in a thread on the WW forums about Ablation of Brass and Fire.

[a_humble_lich]

According to a statement from one of the Devs that statement in SSE is redundant, and automatically applies to all PDs, whether or not they have that line. It was brought up in a thread on the WW forums about Ablation of Brass and Fire.

I assume it does not apply to PDs that explicitly say that you have to be aware (like Flowing Body Evasion). OR do the devs want to make all PDs work that way?

[senrath]

A PD would have to explicitly state that it could be used on unexpected attacks for it to work against them.

[Mr.Bookworm]

A PD would have to explicitly state that it could be used on unexpected attacks for it to work against them.

And none of them do, because that would be horribly unbalanced.

Though the possibility of an Isidoros PD that only works against attacks that are unexpected was bandied about, but that's probably on the opposite end of the problem scale.

[Reynard]

A PD would have to explicitly state that it could be used on unexpected attacks for it to work against them.

...Except for the never-errata'd line in core that says the exact opposite?

God effing dammit, White Wolf. God effing damn.

[Lochar]

A PD would have to explicitly state that it could be used on unexpected attacks for it to work against them.

Actually, Swillin's imperfect states that by itself, a Charm with the Imperfection should never protect against a Surprise attack on it's own.

Which means to me that anything that doesn't say that, does.

[Indon]

If having innate charms counts for the purposes of combos, then my first character qualifies for tier 2 just by having SSE and Reflex Sidestep as innate... that seems off to me, because I definitely don't know the rules well enough for my characters to count as highly optimized in any way.

In 3.5 D&D, Wizards are Tier 1, but few people played them in a way so as to overpower everyone else. It's about capability, not actions.

What if you get every charm that can overcome every nonstandard offensive action and then never combo anything?

You get to hang out with the optimized Truenamers from the D&D tier system?

There's not so many things in Exalted with stuff worth taking sadly.

Oh, no, there's lots of things with stuff worth taking, once you take into account artifact components.

The tears of just about anyone you beat is probably good for making something.

Tura, if people worried about everything, then would anyone have any courage to step out of their own homes? everyone knows that roleplaying games are about taking risks, If I was completely safe there would be no point in playing.

Alternately, you're an elder Celestial exalt and your paranoia is an extension of your crazy.

I envision that at the time of the Usurpation, many Solars probably seriously engaged in Paranoia combat, which is why even a mass ambush with overwhelming power left enough Solars alive enough to obliterate the entire city they were fighting in and turn the Usurpation into a brief world war.

...well, that's optimization for either (Social or physical) combat, which... should really not be the focus of the game, if only for sanity's sake. But if you want that:

Well, there's not really much to say about optimization outside of combat mechanics.

[DragonSinged]

Does Protection of Celestial Bliss allow HGD to be used against surprise attacks? Cause it's got that line that says "...in any circumstance where using the charm would be legitimate."
Which kinda makes me wonder what the point of Protection of Celestial Bliss is. According to the Errata, you still need to pay the cost of HGD when the attack occurs, so is it some kind of rules thing that I'm not getting? Like you can use it to use HGD even after you've used another charm that turn or something?

[Reynard]

Well, there's not really much to say about optimization outside of combat mechanics.

No, there is. Take a look at crafting, where the difference between completely useless and completely broken takes only a little bit of effort. Read one of our currently benevolent local Raksha's posts for how much room for optimization lies in the realm of the Fae.

[Lochar]

Yes, because the charm activation is during the activation of Celestial Bliss, not HGD.

[Reynard]

Yes, because the charm activation is during the activation of Celestial Bliss, not HGD.

But only if you've used a Surprise Negator first, as HGD carries that "Thou shalt not use this charm alone against Surprise Attacks" line.