Using Cantrips to break the game more

[Moose Man]

People keep saying it can be done, but how?

[HalfDragonCube]

Prestidigitation canheat somthing up by about 35F or something like that. Get a piece of Tungsten and cast the spell around 100 times. Now you have a fission candle that ignites the atmosphere.

[Hirax]

Fell drain + easy metamagic feat + sonic snap = negative level being delivered by a level 1 character with no attack roll, no save.

[TroubleBrewing]

Fell drain + easy metamagic feat + sonic snap = negative level being delivered by a level 1 character with no attack roll, no save.

This. This is why I love optimization.

Because that up there is as close as we get to effing alchemy.

[nedz]

Rogue/Sorceror or Scout/Sorceror using Acid Splash isn't game breaking, but it is a touch attack, no save, no SR for a number of dice.

[AslanCross]

Prestidigitation is pretty much a Wish spell at level 0. If you're creative enough with it (and your DM is lax enough) you can do incredibly silly things like the aforementioned fission candle. (Btw, how does a fission candle work exactly? Been trying to read up on it but I can't find anything on the Net.)

[TroubleBrewing]

Fission basics.

The bit where they talk about a "fission candle" effect is about halfway down the page, in the paragraph that begins "If you have ever tried to blow out a self-lighting birthday candle..."

[Lonely Tylenol]

See, combos like the Sonic Snap/Fell Drain combo are the type of things I wish I knew when I started playing with my Wizard at level 1 (granted, my Wizard was my first character, so that would have been unlikely.

Pretty much a one-shot-one-kill at level 1 (when you're fighting mostly level 1 enemies)... And Fell Drain doesn't stop being useful later, since even if you don't blast, spells like Enervation (which are extremely useful to have) still deal damage. Heck, I don't think a negative level as a level 1 spell EVER stops being useful.

[Moose Man]

Prestidigitation says it can lift one pound of material slowly, correct? Supercompress any material. It eventually becomes a tiny black hole.

[ubergeek63]

well it is not a cantrip, but how about fell drain with thunderhead?

[maysarahs]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so,

[TroubleBrewing]

I don't think so. You're already using one reducer to bring it back from a 2nd level spell to a 1st, but I could be mistaken on this.

This would be more a of a question for the FAQ by RAW thread.

[Divide by Zero]

Can you combine with arcane thesis and use of +0 metamagics (invisible is a favorite) to bring it back to a cantrip? (I play Pathfinder, explaining my interest in this particular combo) If so,

By RAW, yes, although if you were using Easy Metamagic, it wouldn't matter since it would already be a +0 adjustment.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I don't think so. You're already using one reducer to bring it back from a 2nd level spell to a 1st, but I could be mistaken on this.

This would be more a of a question for the FAQ by RAW thread.

You should be able to. Arcane Thesis (and many other metamagic reducers) stack whenever applicable. The only restriction on Arcane Thesis is that the spell cannot be reduced to below its original level.

With this in mind, you CAN have an Arcane Thesis'd, Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained Sonic Snap as a cantrip, which can be awesome if your DM has house rules about cantrips (like unlimited use and whatnot); otherwise, it's a three-feat investment which you can't get until level 3 at the earliest, when it stops being an instant kill (as monsters with more than 1 HD aren't going to drop to level 0 without multiple uses). Also, unless you find practical, mid- or late- game applications for Sonic Snap, the Arcane Thesis (Sonic Snap) feat will be wasted.

[TroubleBrewing]

Well, then I stand corrected!

Learn something new every day.

[big teej]

not to derail, but I must ask...

what book is "fell drain" out of?

I'm rolling a wizard so this thread is of great interest to me.

[TroubleBrewing]

Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror.

I'm AFB ATM, so... *shrug*

[holywhippet]

Libris Mortis

[Lamech]

Create a small amount of something edible with prestidigitation, and put it in someones food. (Water should work.) In an hour it will be absorbed into their cells, and hopefully DNA. Especially things that get misplaced easily like the protons and electrons. It goes away creating a ton of radicals, breaking bonds whatever; like big dose of radiation.
And no the "no damage shouldn't apply because prestidigitation does no damage. Its the lack of it that does the damage.

[TroubleBrewing]

See, as great as it would be to give someone cancer with a cantrip, the game doesn't support rules for this. Otherwise, "Create Food and Water" would be the deadliest spell known to man.

[Fineous Orlon]

Fission basics.

The bit where they talk about a "fission candle" effect is about halfway down the page, in the paragraph that begins "If you have ever tried to blow out a self-lighting birthday candle..."

That page is really poorly edited as to spelling and technical content. Using it as an informative source for nuclear reactions or accurate history would be a bad choice.

Tungsten forming a fission candle is not particularly well explained by that page, but may be better explained by mentioning that Tungsten has the second highest melting point of any element, implying that it can be heated hot enough [before it melts] that it would ignite many things that may be in close proximity. Should the atmosphere ignite around Tungsten hot enough to be incandescent, certainly a circulating air cell might form to feed fresh air to the tungsten rapidly.

A better fission candle explanation would be nice.

[Tvtyrant]

If you fell drained goblins to death wouldn't they come back as much more dangerous Wights? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

[Lonely Tylenol]

not to derail, but I must ask...

what book is "fell drain" out of?

I'm rolling a wizard so this thread is of great interest to me.

Confirming that it's Libris Mortis, along with the other Fell metamagics, which, frankly, aren't as good. Fell Frighten gives the target the Shaken condition for one minute, which is abhorrent when you consider that it bumps it up by the same amount as Fell Drain, which is that much better. Fell Weaken might have been better if it stacked, and if you can convince your DM that it should, more power to you, because an Arcane Thesis'd anything gets Fell Weaken for zero spell levels and allows Split Ray/Twin Spell abuse, which I guess is precisely why it doesn't stack.

Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

Just remember that Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained Sonic Snap is only good because you get it at level 1, and don't have to devote feats just to Sonic Snap. By levels 3-5, you should be moving on to bigger and better things... Like Easy Metamagicked, Fell Drained everything else.

[Coidzor]

If you fell drained goblins to death wouldn't they come back as much more dangerous Wights? Doesn't seem like a good idea to me...

Can't be a wight without a head.

Fell Animate is interesting... It's horribly situational, since it requires a spell to kill, but if you metamagic out Enervate or something, and can fit this in the arrangement, you can deal enough negative levels to kill almost anything, and in the process create an undead which you can (presumably) put under your command. The only problem with this is that the feat investment is so huge, you're probably not playing a necromancer class, and aren't going to get away with much... But if you can pick it up as a rod, why not?

Also, creates zombies which are pretty lackluster. But as said, hey if you can get a rod, cheap as free minions. Though the Azun-Gund(Sunless Citadel)/Nightcaller's Whistle(Libris Mortis) might be cheaper and give more mileage than a rod of fell animate anyway...

Depending upon whether you encounter big critters that'd be good as zombies or would use 'em as traps anyway... And possibly whether you have someone with the command undead spell like a party wizard...

[Lonely Tylenol]

Also, creates zombies which are pretty lackluster. But as said, hey if you can get a rod, cheap as free minions. Though the Azun-Gund(Sunless Citadel)/Nightcaller's Whistle(Libris Mortis) might be cheaper and give more mileage than a rod of fell animate anyway...

Depending upon whether you encounter big critters that'd be good as zombies or would use 'em as traps anyway... And possibly whether you have someone with the command undead spell like a party wizard...

Well, if you're a True Necromancer (Libris Mortis), which is a decent enough path for a Wizard to take, or a Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), you can rebuke and command undead of your own volition. If you're a Dread Necromancer, you can also command a ton of undead--the Summon Undead spells don't count toward the HD limit that the Dread Necromancer can create from his own abilities... And neither do Fell Animated undead, as far as I know. What this means is that you can create a veritable army of the walking dead at your disposal.

So, Fell Animate: Good for dedicated necromancers, "meh" otherwise.

[Moose Man]

See, as great as it would be to give someone cancer with a cantrip, the game doesn't support rules for this. Otherwise, "Create Food and Water" would be the deadliest spell known to man.

Sigging this, to awesome to ignore.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Well, if you're a True Necromancer (Libris Mortis), which is a decent enough path for a Wizard to take, or a Dread Necromancer (Heroes of Horror), you can rebuke and command undead of your own volition. If you're a Dread Necromancer, you can also command a ton of undead--the Summon Undead spells don't count toward the HD limit that the Dread Necromancer can create from his own abilities... And neither do Fell Animated undead, as far as I know. What this means is that you can create a veritable army of the walking dead at your disposal.

So, Fell Animate: Good for dedicated necromancers, "meh" otherwise.

Dude, you are burning... at least 4 (early entry shenanigans) levels of Wizard (or Cleric) casting, plus the Death domain you get is extremely redundant and the only good class feature is the Desecration Aura, which you can get as a ring. So no, True Necromancer is not good for a Necromancer.

AFAIK the consensus is that Cleric Necromancer: Big Powerful Minions which are buffed to Baator and back

Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

[Makiru]

I've never heard of Easy Metamagic before. Where is that feat located?

[Hirax]

Dragon Magazine. It's regarded as pretty cheesy, basically take a metamagic feat which raises spell level by at least 2, and reduce the adjusted spell level by 1. So you can't use it on metamagic that only ups spell level by 1.

[Coidzor]

I've never heard of Easy Metamagic before. Where is that feat located?

Dragon Magazine... 325, was it?

Dread Necromancer: Gigantic Hordes of undead minions

Wizard Necromancer: Mister Negative (AKA as the Debuffer)

Also, Animate Dread Warrior so that the bosses you kill become your butler. Preferably with spell-stitching, but, that's another kettle of fish...