Firefly (or, Blasphemy to End Thread Necromancy?!?)

[Talya]

I present to you the most heinous sort of blasphemy and sacriledge.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=102

Jeesh, this show wasn't even very good.

Browncoats, unite!

Firefly Forever!

[Eldan]

I thought it was pretty good, after the first two or three episodes, which dragged a bit.

Most of Whedon's other stuff isn't very good, though.

[Moglorosh]

I thought it was pretty good, after the first two or three episodes, which dragged a bit.

Most of Whedon's other stuff isn't very good, though.

He did something other than Firefly and Buffy? Lies.

[Eldan]

Phh. I think at least half of Buffy was pretty bad too

[Talya]

Buffy/Angel, Firefly/Serenity, Titan A.E. and Toy Story were all outstanding. Dollhouse was good but not great, but his ultimate work to date has been Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-long Blog. In 1000 years, that musical will be our generation's Hamlet. :p

I can't wait to see how the Whedon-written/directed Avengers movie will pan out.

[Psyren]

The minute I read that lock-post I knew it would troll somebody around here.

Honestly though, I don't think there's much to say about this show that hasn't already been said. It was cut short in its prime and hopefully, Fox is (slowly) starting to realize the negative impact their impatience can have on viewership of similar shows going forward.

[The Rose Dragon]

I never watched Firefly. I really should, but there are only two possible outcomes, neither of which are positive.

1) I dislike it, rage against the fan hype and promptly turn into an insufferable pariah among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

2) I love it, get annoyed at what could have been and turn into a drooling fanatic among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

So, I am ever wary about watching it.

[Velaryon]

Firefly was a pretty good show, although I didn't even hear about it until well after it was cancelled. It's a shame that it got canned before it had a real chance to shine.

I don't think the movie was all that great though. Better to have that than nothing, but it still fell short of capturing the show's charm at least to me.

[DomaDoma]

I've seen halfway through season four of Buffy. I'm told that I should stop after season five, and given that Buffy's characterization in the one episode of season six I saw (I'm told it's one of the better ones) made Buffy after the Acathla thing look resilient and well-adjusted... I think I will. Even if said episode makes some plot points about season five a little more clear than I would like. (It was the first Buffy episode I saw; I don't just walk into spoilerland knowing full well what I'm getting into.)

[GloatingSwine]

I've seen halfway through season four of Buffy. I'm told that I should stop after season five, and given that Buffy's characterization in the one episode of season six I saw (I'm told it's one of the better ones) made Buffy after the Acathla thing look resilient and well-adjusted... I think I will. Even if said episode makes some plot points about season five a little more clear than I would like. (It was the first Buffy episode I saw; I don't just walk into spoilerland knowing full well what I'm getting into.)

To be honest you can pretty much stop Buffy after season 3 and not lose much.

[Talya]

I've seen halfway through season four of Buffy. I'm told that I should stop after season five, and given that Buffy's characterization in the one episode of season six I saw (I'm told it's one of the better ones) made Buffy after the Acathla thing look resilient and well-adjusted... I think I will. Even if said episode makes some plot points about season five a little more clear than I would like. (It was the first Buffy episode I saw; I don't just walk into spoilerland knowing full well what I'm getting into.)

Two of the top 10 buffy episodes ever happen in season 6 and 7. Actually, season 6 had the best big-bad villain at the end, too. (ha.) No, I wouldn't say stop after five. That would cause you to miss the brilliant "Once More, With Feeling," as well as "Chosen." No, keep watching.

[SuperPanda]

I personally loved Titan AE and Toy Story, though both of those Whedon worked on along with other people. I was unimpressed with Buffy and the general opinion I ran into was that eye-candy was the primary reason for watching it. Apart from on the internet I never found anything to credit Angel as a spectacularly well written deal.

On Firefly itself, I seem to have ruined the experience by being introduced to the series with the movie Serenity amongst all the hype which Firefly fans poured onto it. Was it bad? No it certainly wasn't bad. Was it the most amazing thing I've ever seen? No, not by a long shot.

As Science Fiction goes, I think it was about on par with Stargate (movie, SG-1 actually had some amazingly well done Sci Fi to it) and the original Star Wars trilogy. Science is implied in that there is part of the story "In Space!" but any actual science is about as relevant to the story a physics is to a final fantasy game. The "cultural evolution" of the story such that you had a hodgepodge of earth cultures mixed together with no coherent connections (Chinese and japanese writing with English words, wild west with a Samurai/Ninja assassin) creates a beautiful and visually pleasing world, but one that doesn't stand up to much consideration beyond the pure aesthetics of it. I think Titan AE did a much better job of setting up a sci fi future that was more or less believable culture wise.

From what I've seen, Whedon seems to be the George Lucas of this generation. Good ideas and beautiful sense of aesthetics but he benifits far more than he would like to admit by having someone to bounce ideas off of and/or reign him in a bit.

Toy Story was amazing (there were 6 other writers). Titan AE was wonderfully fun and pretty darn clever (co-written) Serenity was, well it was okay. As a film, on its own, it doesn't really stand up very well. Even firefly fans have told me that the film on its own doesn't hold water but when taken with the series is fun and very enjoyable. If the film Serenity was only for that minority audience, then well done Mr. Whedon. If it was for fans and new comers alike, then it was on the average.

I tried watching the first episode of Firefly sometime after seeing Serenity, but the setting just didn't capture my imagination mostly because it seemed so arbitrary. Wonderful aesthetics, poor internal consistency.

On a side note, I've heard similar things said about the Buffy and Angel TV shows. They are fun and visually pleasing, but get way too confusing to explain clearly.

[DomaDoma]

Anyway, the basic rule for Whedon, I think, is that he starts off great, becomes greater, then drags the characters through too many muddy ditches for me to enjoy watching it any more. Dollhouse probably would have developed that problem by the third season, if it had had one. (The compression shaved off most of the angst and left most of the drama, IMO.) As Serenity is essentially the second season of Firefly, I'd say it would probably be best as a three-season show. Though I gotta tell you, seeing First-Twenty-Minutes Jerkass!Mal dragged out over several episodes would make me rage mightily.

[Talya]

I was unimpressed with Buffy and the general opinion I ran into was that eye-candy was the primary reason for watching it. Apart from on the internet I never found anything to credit Angel as a spectacularly well written deal.

Eye candy? Not really. In later seasons, Willow certainly fits the bill. And Faith, in her few appearances, was always hotter than hell. But for the most part, no. I don't even like Sarah Michelle Gellar. Xander? Okay, cute, but not great.

What made Buffy (and Angel, and Firefly -- and was lacking in Dollhouse which kept it from reaching the same levels of awesome), were incredibly interesting characters and most importantly, the best goshdarned dialogue ever written. Buffy wasn't about Buffy herself, though she was certainly important. It was an ensemble cast. Rupert Giles -- Anthony Stewart Head really needs to do more acting. Truth be told, Buffy herself, and Angel himself, while entertaining, were not the most interesting characters on their respective shows. Giles, Willow, Xander, Spike, Fred, Wesley, Gunn...they all outshone their leading lady/man. In all cases, though, the incredibly witty dialogue, that ran the gamut from hilarious to tear-jerking, simply rocked.

Anyway, the basic rule for Whedon, I think, is that he starts off great, becomes greater, then drags the characters through too many muddy ditches for me to enjoy watching it any more. Dollhouse probably would have developed that problem by the third season, if it had had one. (The compression shaved off most of the angst and left most of the drama, IMO.)

Actually, i think that's part of what was missing from Dollhouse. I missed the Whedonangst.

As Serenity is essentially the second season of Firefly, I'd say it would probably be best as a three-season show. Though I gotta tell you, seeing First-Twenty-Minutes Jerkass!Mal dragged out over several episodes would make me rage mightily.

You must be the type of person who actually dislikes Belkar. Mal Reynolds is a jerk. A magnificent jerk. If he's not being a jerk, he's not Mal. Mal the jerk is the Mal I love. Now, he's not an evil son-of-a-you-know-what like the wonderfully bad Jayne Cobb, but he's still a jerk.

[DomaDoma]

You must be the type of person who actually dislikes Belkar. Mal Reynolds is a jerk. A magnificent jerk. If he's not being a jerk, he's not Mal. Mal the jerk is the Mal I love. Now, he's not an evil son-of-a-you-know-what like the wonderfully bad Jayne Cobb, but he's still a jerk.

Oh yeah, Mal is definitely a jerk. But normally, he's a fun jerk, not a hard-edged and cruel one.

I do dislike Belkar, though, so you do have something of a point. :p

[Psyren]

You must be the type of person who actually dislikes Belkar.

Are you trying to get this thread to 50 pages?

[Talya]

Are you trying to get this thread to 50 pages?

Hey, that'd be great. ;)

Seriously, I suspect there's a pattern...

my favorite characters on:
OotS - Belkar Bitterleaf
Firefly - Jayne Cobb
Buffy - Spike (before season 7, anyway)
Angel - Lorne (okay, that doesn't fit the pattern)

[The Rose Dragon]

Angel - Lorne (okay, that doesn't fit the pattern)

Poor Andy Hallett. May he rest in peace.

[Talya]

Poor Andy Hallett. May he rest in peace.

Yeah, that was sad.

The guy that played Doyle died too.

[Dienekes]

It was a good show with clever characters. Not every episode was absolutely amazing (Heart of Gold very lame episode in my opinion) but at it's worst it was just "meh" and at it's best it's a fun little romp.

However I am confused by how popular it is, and Josh Whedon is in general. Now I don't think he's a bad writer but far from amazing, and not everything he touches turns to gold as some of his fans would have you believe.

If you haven't seen it yet I definitely recommend you do, for Jayne Cobb if nothing else.

[Flame of Anor]

I never watched Firefly. I really should, but there are only two possible outcomes, neither of which are positive.

1) I dislike it, rage against the fan hype and promptly turn into an insufferable pariah among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

2) I love it, get annoyed at what could have been and turn into a drooling fanatic among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

So, I am ever wary about watching it.

Well, you know, it's like love. There are two possible outcomes, neither of which is positive.

1) You get your heart broken, rage against the media hype and promptly turn into an insufferable pariah among twenty-somethings, and waste precious time on it.

2) You fall in love, get angsty about mortality, and turn into a raging existentialist, and waste precious time on it.


So you see, there's no point in either of them.



sarcasm mode disengage

[Jallorn]

I think what a lot of anti-firefly fans don't get is that what's so brilliant about Firefly, sadly, was the potential. There are so many plot threads and character conflicts woven into those 14 episodes that remain unexplored, not to mention they themselves are still wonderful and fun to watch and hold up well under repeated viewings. It's not that those 14 episodes are the best show ever made, it's that they're damn incredible and could have become the best show ever made.

Edit: Also, I think it's telling of the maturity of these forums that no one has broken out into a full on nerd rage yet.

[Moglorosh]

I never watched Firefly. I really should, but there are only two possible outcomes, neither of which are positive.

1) I dislike it, rage against the fan hype and promptly turn into an insufferable pariah among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

2) I love it, get annoyed at what could have been and turn into a drooling fanatic among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

So, I am ever wary about watching it.

Third option: You could watch it on netflix (because lets face it, you should already have netflix), thereby bypassing having to spend dollars on it. Then, love it or hate it, you've answered one of life's mysteries.

Also? Summer Glau.

[The Rose Dragon]

Third option: You could watch it on netflix (because lets face it, you should already have netflix), thereby bypassing having to spend dollars on it. Then, love it or hate it, you've answered one of life's mysteries.

Also? Summer Glau.

Tell you what: you get Netflix to accept users outside the United States, and I will get right on it.

[Mystic Muse]

Third option: You could watch it on netflix (because lets face it, you should already have netflix), thereby bypassing having to spend dollars on it. Then, love it or hate it, you've answered one of life's mysteries.

Also? Summer Glau.

Yeah. Get one month of Netflix, you spend 10 bucks or so, and you can get plenty of other stuff on there too.


EDIT:

Tell you what: you get Netflix to accept users outside the United States, and I will get right on it.

Yeah, that's a problem. Never mind.

[warty goblin]

I like Firefly, the characters are generally interesting, the dialog is funny, and the plotlines are pretty good, with lots of little details popping up on repeated viewing. It's not the greatest TV show or Sci-Fi show ever (that I reserve for Season 4 of Babylon 5), but it's absolutely enjoyable and well done. I like Serenity as well, and think it works pretty well as a standalone movie - that's how I watched it and I understood and enjoyed it just fine. You certainly get more out of it if you've watched the series, but it's hardly a necessary prerequisite.

Since this seems to be a discussion of most things Whedon, I also like Buffy. Well, all of it except maybe the last third or so of Season 7. It just felt...rushed, like they had a different conclusion in mind and suddenly had to pull a radical course correction to wrap things up since there wasn't going to be a Season 8. The last episode in particular was just plain bad IMHO. It's a pity, because some of the first episodes of S7 are good, and there was a lot of potential there.

Of course Season 6 is probably my favorite, so maybe there's just something wrong with me. Sure the overarching evil thing plotline was weak, but to me that stuff wasn't really the interesting part of Buffy. That was the interplay of characters, plot, and symbolism, and that worked very well in S6.

I've not finished Angel yet (got to, IIRC, Season 3 a while ago, then for some reason stopped watching pretty much anything for about a year), but I like that rather well also. I'm in rewatching mode now, further bulletins as events warrant.

[GolemsVoice]

My only problem with Firefly is that a friend of mine can't STOP telling me how great any of Wheadon's stuff is. Any of it. Dr. Horrible, Dollhouse, Angel, Buffy, Firefly, What-have-you. Great! I really do like that friend, but it get's really annoying when you can't have a normal conversation without him mentioning some episode of Whedon that in some way touches the topic we are talking about. And the internet is not much better, in a way. Dare not speak out agains Firefly or Planescape. Torment.

Now, I try not to let it control me, and I currently play in a Serenity Roleplaying game with him, and it's great, but sometimes I get the feeling we're his actors, and he just shoves us around to get his perfect post-mortem Firefly episode.

[Serpentine]

Meh. It's okay, engaging enough. Feels too deliberately stuffed-full of oh-so quotable quotables to me, though, and the fandom, well...
It does sound like the makers (and the fans) got ridiculously ripped-off, but I'm far, far more miffed about Pushing Daisies getting screwed over.

[warty goblin]

Meh. It's okay, engaging enough. Feels too deliberately stuffed-full of oh-so quotable quotables to me, though, and the fandom, well...

If one starts hating based on fandoms, everything becomes terrible. The problem isn't with the thing in question in the overwhelming majority of cases, the problem is that fans and fandoms seem to naturally tend towards the annoying and stupid. Hell I like Firefly and the fans still piss me off no end, particularly when the bitching about the show being cancelled starts up yet again.

It's one of those few times where the phrase 'get a life' feels completely appropriate.

[The_JJ]

I never watched Firefly. I really should, but there are only two possible outcomes, neither of which are positive.

1) I dislike it, rage against the fan hype and promptly turn into an insufferable pariah among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

2) I love it, get annoyed at what could have been and turn into a drooling fanatic among the sci-fi geeks, and waste precious dollars on it.

So, I am ever wary about watching it.

Or, like me, you could like it, but be bothered by a few episodes, generally meh at other Whedon stuff, and shelve it up there with the rest of your assorted geekery. Some of the episodes were pretty forgettable, the Message bugged me with its so easy to resolve problem, and I though that the Heart of Gold was terrifically meh, though I did think that Inara's response to the whole situation was terribly... human, which was nice. You don't often get that on TV.