Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Avilan the Grey]

Well, besides the fact that she basically goes into hiding between Act 2 and 3 and you don't want to leave her behind?

Her problem, it's not like she really deserves any help at that point anyway.

He grew up in Lothering. As in, the town that was completely destroyed by the Blight. There is nowhere to return. As of Act 3, Hawke has much more connection to Kirkwall and Amel's legacy, than he has to Ferelden.

---

Oddly enough, I like Carver more He was annoying to no end at first, but then he grew on me. I could understand his problems, his desire to outshine Hawke at least in something. Bethany just seemed flat all throughout the game.

I disagree.... First of all, If I was rich, and my hometown had been burned down, I would use my fortune to rebuild it. Second, even if that wasn't possible, If say Stockholm had been burned down (I grew up in a suburb) I sure would prefer returning to say Gothemburg, because at least it was my home country.

Secondly, I disagree with this too, although different people are different. Of course my main point is that if I could actually have played Hawke as I feel is logical, she would have had act III in ferelden. Act III in Kirkwall would never have happened.

I prefer Bethany because she is a person I would like to be friends with iRL. Carver is a jealous douche.

[Longes]

I disagree.... First of all, If I was rich, and my hometown had been burned down, I would use my fortune to rebuild it. Second, even if that wasn't possible, If say Stockholm had been burned down (I grew up in a suburb) I sure would prefer returning to say Gothemburg, because at least it was my home country.

Secondly, I disagree with this too, although different people are different. Of course my main point is that if I could actually have played Hawke as I feel is logical, she would have had act III in ferelden. Act III in Kirkwall would never have happened.

It is not just burned down. The Blight happened. The whole area is dead, uninhabitable, and is best be avoided.
Secondly, Kirkwall is packed with fereldans. You are probably the owner of the mine, employing some of those fereldans. Would you just leave those people to starve?
Thirdly, Hawke isn't rich. He has a house in Kirkwall and a title. There are no banks in Thedas The money you got from Act 1 expedition went into the mansion, money you loot don't exist In Character (such is the nature of the RPGs ), being a Champion probably doesn't pay all that well.

I prefer Bethany because she is a person I would like to be friends with iRL. Carver is a jealous douche.

He gets better once you resolve his personal quest and he joins the Templars/Wardens.

[Giggling Ghast]

Let's face it... the minute Hawke would have returned to Ferelden would have been the minute the current monarch would have died and the nation would have descended into a brutal succession crisis... and a plague breaks out... and a few hundred rampant Darkspawn happen to show up wherever Hawke tries to settle...

"Ah, it's good to be sailing back to Ferelden. At last my troubles are over."

[Longes]

Also, Carver never betrays you

[Morty]

I do very much hope they did not get burned too much by the reaction towards DA2. I liked the plot. A lot even. I found it more engaging than a lot of other of their games core plots.
There's a lot they need to figure out how to improve. There's a fair few things that did not work so well. And execution is absolutely key (which is what it fell on), but I do hope they bring these experinces forward... not drop them like a rock.

Agreed. I would very much prefer it if they tried something new again, after taking lessons from what went wrong in DA2, than if they decided to throw it all out and re-cook their old plots. Sadly, the fanbase would be probably ecstatic if they did the latter... gamers can be a really conservative bunch.

[Longes]

Spoiler

Show

[Kish]

Weird.

Kind of amusing. But weird in where it misfires and stretches to fit the point it wants to make. (The "four main locations" thing for Baldur's Gate is utterly arbitrary; conversely, in Dragon Age: Origins you have to go to exactly four groups, yet that one's marked in yellow. Visiting the Fade is hardly "falling asleep," nor are your travels there a "dream sequence" in any definition but an obnoxious semantics-are-opposed-to-meaning one. Even though the listing for Baldur's Gate says "Baldur's Gate Series," all the examples given are for Baldur's Gate 1, except the last one, which incorrectly calls the Underdark "a city under the city" in a way that suggests that it means the Undercity where you finally confront Sarevok, which is from Baldur's Gate 1, after all.)

Hm, what would an actual column for Shadows of Amn look like?

You hail from humble origins... You're a mid-level adventurer known for preventing a war almost single-handedly. You're also a half-god.
A devastating battle sends your quiet life spinning out of balance. It is unlikely that you imagined you could have a quiet life after the events of the previous game, but you still weren't expecting to be kidnapped by a ruthless--and phenomenally powerful--wizard so soon after you saved Baldur's Gate.
The attack leaves you alone with two companions, of magical and martial prowess. Three, not two, of your earlier traveling companions are imprisoned with you; a completely new companion, Yoshimo, joins before you've completed your escape.
Undaunted by the attack, you recover are[sic] swiftly invited into an elite order that places you in a position of power or authority over the rest of humanity. Still no organizations here. You're the leader of an adventuring party. You may temporarily join or work with other organizations, but the only way you're getting power or authority over humanity is if you eventually become a god like your father.
You discover that you must travel to four main locations in order to save the world/galaxy. Athkatla, various wilderness areas, Brynnlaw, the Underdark, Suldanesselar...Someone sufficiently dedicated to going to as few distinct locations as possible might be able to keep it as low as four, but I doubt anyone ever has.
With your mission well under way, your every effort is thwarted by an evil or sinister organization. I'm dubious that Irenicus is an organization, but he's a better fit than most of these, and they're all blue, so blue it is.
At some point, you fall asleep and there is a dream sequence. As soon as you're no longer his prisoner, Irenicus begins taunting you in your sleep.
Further along in your journeys, you discover the ruins of a sprawling ancient civilization. You find many ruins, and even an ancient and nearly-dead god.

[Androgeus]

Aren't most of the clichés on that chart just a typical Hero's journey?

[Longes]

Aren't most of the clichés on that chart just a typical Hero's journey?

Nope. "I'm a member of an ancient legacy/order", "I have to visit X locations for X MacGuffins", "Evil conspiracy haunts me" and "WHAT A TWIST!" (Revan was his sled, Yojimbo was evil all along, Warden has to sacrifice himself, REAPERS IS PEOPLE!!!) are cliches Bioware loves way too much. Compare it to the good RPGs, like Planescape, KotOR 2, Mask of Betrayer, Vampire the Masquerade. Even Divinity 2 and Dragon Age 2.

[Divayth Fyr]

Compare it to the good RPGs, like Planescape, KotOR 2, Mask of Betrayer, Vampire the Masquerade. Even Divinity 2 and Dragon Age 2.

I think DA2 got on the list of "good" RPGs by accident :P

[GungHo]

Aren't most of the clichés on that chart just a typical Hero's journey?

Yes.

Nope. "I'm a member of an ancient legacy/order", "I have to visit X locations for X MacGuffins", "Evil conspiracy haunts me" and "WHAT A TWIST!" (Revan was his sled, Yojimbo was evil all along, Warden has to sacrifice himself, REAPERS IS PEOPLE!!!) are cliches Bioware loves way too much. Compare it to the good RPGs, like Planescape, KotOR 2, Mask of Betrayer, Vampire the Masquerade. Even Divinity 2 and Dragon Age 2.

Your scope is rather narrow. The cliches around a hero's journey, particularly "humble origins", "devastating battle", "elite order", "sinister organization", "dream sequence, "ancient ruins" are established well outside games on a computer machine. The locational and companion ones, granted, are computer machine contributions, though I've seen the companion additions in literature.

[Morty]

It certainly doesn't follow the list of BioWare cliches, which means it does belong with the others in this context.

[Avilan the Grey]

"Good RPG" "Dragon Age 2"

Confused.

Anyway...


I just realized what Dragon Age 2 reminds me of the most: A very long session of Fiasco!

[Longes]

Your scope is rather narrow. The cliches around a hero's journey, particularly "humble origins", "devastating battle", "elite order", "sinister organization", "dream sequence, "ancient ruins" are established well outside games on a computer machine. The locational and companion ones, granted, are computer machine contributions, though I've seen the companion additions in literature.

Maybe. But one author usually doesn't repeat all the cliches throughout all his books.

[ImperiousLeader]

He gets better once you resolve his personal quest and he joins the Templars/Wardens.

I find it really difficult not to play the sarcastic mage Hawke, and that relationship with Carver is fricking hilarious. Unlike the other companions, where you quickly get to a high friendship/rivalry, my Hawke is constantly pissing off Carver, but then making overtures. It's a great brotherly bond, they both manage to bug the crap out of each other, but they also have each other's back.

I played DA2 first, I've only started into DA:O, and Hawke is much preferable to the mute Warden. He's frequently hilarious, and it's easier to get into his head.

[Dienekes]

DA2 had the potential to be a truly great game. Watching your actions and choices change the city as you play the political game and rise to power is a fantastic story.

Except, your choices have little to no impact on how the city develops, you barely touch the political game, and everyone deserves my foot in their ass. That and how repetitive everything was.

It's a real pity, my favorite parts of DAO was the Dwarf Noble origin, the Dwarf quest (outside the Deep Roads), and trying to out-politic Logaine. A game dedicated to maneuvering around Kirkwall's political bodies could have been awesome.

You do remember, that by the Act 3 Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall? He isn't just rich, he also has a lot of responsibilities. Peoples lifes depend on him. He is the only reason Kirkwall doesn't explode right here and now. Saying "Screw you guys I'm going home" would be the equialent of Batman saying "**** this, I'm off to Australia".

By act 3? I would have probably left before my mom died. Seriously everyone in that city (except Ser Thrask the Great) is bonkers.

[Morty]

Yeah, whatever one may think about the plot of DA2, there's just no excuse for the endlessly repeating locations.

[Aux-Ash]

I just realized what Dragon Age 2 reminds me of the most: A very long session of Fiasco!

Huh... you know what... I absolutely agree. DA2 is what a Dragon Age Fiasco game would look like.

Part of the reason I like it so much I suppose

Dienekes:
I agree with more focus on Kirkwalls politics and more emphasis on your actions shaping the city would have been great.

It's what I'm hoping for in DAI (DA3 for Zevox ) since there seems to be rumours hinting towards it. But given that I got the exact same hints for DA2 I'll be keeping my expectations low in that regard.

[Avilan the Grey]

DA2 had the potential to be a truly great game. Watching your actions and choices change the city as you play the political game and rise to power is a fantastic story.

Except, your choices have little to no impact on how the city develops, you barely touch the political game, and everyone deserves my foot in their ass. That and how repetitive everything was.

This, so much. They* promised us your first paragraph. Every preview, every buzz, every sneak peak and every rumor said "Rise to power! Be the most important man in Thedas history! Choose if you want to be a despot, a backstabber or a just and honest man in your political climb!

Then you got... the second paragraph.

Huh... you know what... I absolutely agree. DA2 is what a Dragon Age Fiasco game would look like.

Part of the reason I like it so much I suppose

So who gave Hawke about two thirds black dice? That's the worst possible outcome, I think...
(Only played it twice, both time all black die, and by rolling high on a single scale (white or black) you get the much sought after "happy while everyone is destroyed" ending).

*"They" being both Bioware, EA, and every single game site, magazine and Youtube show.

[TheLaughingMan]

Aren't most of the clichés on that chart just a typical Hero's journey?

It depends, a bit. BioWare's plots a generally attempts at translating the Hero's Journey into RPG form, and as nearly each game tries to accomplish the same goal, similarities, some more specific than others, are going to crop up. If we had a Venn diagram with one hoop being the Hero's Journey and the other Bioware's own plot cliches, these would rest somewhere vaguely in the middle.

[D_Man_7733]

Hmmm, if you visibly changed kirkwall by playing the game it would make the final act all that more... heartbreaking. If for example you played a neutral-ish character (helping mages, but believing the circle is the right place for them), during the day you would see a mage/templar duo wandering lowtown and hightown purchasing things, and the gallows started to look less menacing. But supporting either side caused them to wander around town freely and even offer support in battles at night.

So as Kirkwall changes to be a beacon of hope... then **** hits the fan, Meredith goes off the deep end, Anders mana-bombs the chantry, Orsino goes flesh golem, and Hawke is left to clean up the mess. Only it will never be the same, because it started the war.

Wow... that would make the game alot better, even act 2 when the qunari attack, you would have parts of the city destroyed, and just as it's gotten rebuilt better than ever... well you know the rest.

But if we get caught up in what could have been, we'll never be able to appreciate it for what it is; a good RPG, with somewhat lacking resources, but with an overall good overarching plot with occassional poor application.

[Avilan the Grey]

But if we get caught up in what could have been, we'll never be able to appreciate it for what it is; a good RPG, with somewhat lacking resources, but with an overall good overarching plot with occassional poor application.

Ahem.



I would rather describe it as follows:

An interesting idea that failed in implementation completely for various reasons, and resulted in a mediocre RPG with some interesting but unlikable NPCs with quite funny banter and a combat system that feels disjointed from the story.

[Mx.Silver]

An interesting idea that failed in implementation completely for various reasons, and resulted in a mediocre RPG with some interesting but unlikable NPCs with quite funny banter and a combat system that feels disjointed from the story.

Oh, are we talking about Origins as well now?
Because if we're interested in gameplay-story segregation (or 'ludonarrative dissonance' if you prefer) then I'd imagine there's a fair amount to be said about the Grey Wardens in that game...

[Avilan the Grey]

Oh, are we talking about Origins as well now?
Because if we're interested in gameplay-story segregation (or 'ludonarrative dissonance' if you prefer) then I'd imagine there's a fair amount to be said about the Grey Wardens in that game...

Honestly, no. As in I actually don't know what you are hinting at?

[Aux-Ash]

This, so much. They* promised us your first paragraph. Every preview, every buzz, every sneak peak and every rumor said "Rise to power! Be the most important man in Thedas history! Choose if you want to be a despot, a backstabber or a just and honest man in your political climb!

Then you got... the second paragraph.

Certain unfortunate shortcuts (such as reused areas and too many filler fights) aside, I think the marketing and story structure was actually very deliberate. You were supposed to think that Hawke was the most awesome and important thing that ever happened to Thedas. To buy into the same hype that Thedas itself did. Only to discover the truth as you played. Varric is not just telling Cassandra she got it all wrong... but us, the players, as well.

I did a more thorough analysis of this a bunch of pages back in this thread.

In hindsight though... it was probably not the best use of a marketing campaign. Artistic. But not very honest.
I do not think they'd do themselves any favours by trying that again... If anything, the smartest move Bioware can do now in terms of marketing is being as honest as they possible can be.

So who gave Hawke about two thirds black dice? That's the worst possible outcome, I think...
(Only played it twice, both time all black die, and by rolling high on a single scale (white or black) you get the much sought after "happy while everyone is destroyed" ending).

I don't know... but I suspect he/she got most of them as early as act 1. Partnering up with Javaris, saving Seamus, working for Petrice* and helping Isabela and Anders out all led Hawke earning black dice methinks. Bartrand is black dice for everyone (even those not involved in the expedition).... and especially for him.

Feynriel is white dice though... as is Fenris (for you, not him).

[Longes]

Certain unfortunate shortcuts (such as reused areas and too many filler fights) aside, I think the marketing and story structure was actually very deliberate. You were supposed to think that Hawke was the most awesome and important thing that ever happened to Thedas. To buy into the same hype that Thedas itself did. Only to discover the truth as you played. Varric is not just telling Cassandra she got it all wrong... but us, the players, as well.

Everything was all right. AND THEN ELECTRONIC ARTS HAPPENED.

I don't know... but I suspect he/she got most of them as early as act 1. Partnering up with Javaris, saving Seamus, working for Petrice* and helping Isabela and Anders out all led Hawke earning black dice methinks. Bartrand is black dice for everyone (even those not involved in the expedition).... and especially for him.

Feynriel is white dice though... as is Fenris (for you, not him).

Everything happens as it does because you get that idol. Act 2 and 3 are damage controll. Some thing would still happen without the idol, but probably slower and with less panic.

[Avilan the Grey]

Certain unfortunate shortcuts (such as reused areas and too many filler fights) aside, I think the marketing and story structure was actually very deliberate. You were supposed to think that Hawke was the most awesome and important thing that ever happened to Thedas. To buy into the same hype that Thedas itself did. Only to discover the truth as you played. Varric is not just telling Cassandra she got it all wrong... but us, the players, as well.

If that was their intent, it seriously pisses me off to the point I won't buy DA3 out of principle, since I am considering it criminal fraud.

[Aux-Ash]

Everything happens as it does because you get that idol. Act 2 and 3 are damage controll. Some thing would still happen without the idol, but probably slower and with less panic.

Not everything, no. The Arishok incident would have happened with out without Hawke (it's a matter of when, not if) and is unrelated to the idol. Hawke gets involved in it because of working for Javaris and Petrice. Even if the expedition had not been on the table chances are Hawke would have gotten involved anyways to earn some money. Hawke's skill firmly lands him/her in the mercenary line of work after all.

And the Meredith incident only boiled over sooner thanks to the idol. That one has history going at least 10 years back prior to DAO.

If that was their intent, it seriously pisses me off to the point I won't buy DA3 out of principle, since I am considering it criminal fraud.

This I completely understand and I would not fault you in the least. Especially not if we start seeing signs that they're marketing this game the same way (thus far it's too early to tell).

Fraud I wouldn't say, since when you look back at the marketing the signs are all over the place that something like this was going on (admittedly easier to see with hindsight). A lot of the marketing was about Varric telling you the "true story", who "Hawke really was" and comparing it to movies that also work on false premises slowly being made apparent.
But it definantely was dishonest. Not malicously perhaps, but still.

[Morty]

I agree that if their invention was to first set up the story of a world-changing hero and then deconstruct it, they really shouldn't have advertised one thing and gave the players another. Artistic as it may be, when trying to sell a product it's simply false advertising, which is a very ugly thing.

And I have to say I didn't like the Lyrium idol subplot. The idea of some mysterious, special lyrium with even more potent abilities is interesting, and the Primveal Thaig was very nice. But it really shouldn't have got into Meredith's hands. Making it responsible for her going completely off her rocker cheapened the whole thing. Mind you, I think you shouldn't fight Meredith if you side with the Templars, but the finale is pretty problematic all over.

[Beowulf DW]

Bioware went out of its comfort zone with DA2, and whenever we leave our comfort zones, our metaphorical home turf, we're bound to make mistakes. Bioware certainly did make mistakes with DA2, the biggest of which was definitely that they needed more time. This was likely the "root" mistake, as well. If they had more time, they wouldn't have had to reuse the same areas over and over, and they probably would have addressed issues with the plot concerning Hawke's motivation for those who don't like the other characters, or who managed to get their siblings killed. Despite all that, I still think it was a good game, if only for what it tried to do. I suppose that I'll have to agree to disagree with people like Avilan (also, that avatar kind of creeps me out for reasons that escape me, so I find myself a bit frightened of Avilan right now). At any rate, I hope that Bioware continues to attempt to challenge itself like it did with DA2, while learning from their mistakes. They certainly seem to have learned from their biggest mistake: sometimes you just need more time. The amount of time that DA3 has been in production compared to DA2 is something I find rather encouraging.