Dragon Age II, Part 2: The Qun is pretty deep, you wouldn't understand it.

[Dienekes]

In regards to the mage you mentioned, the one that was being surrounded by templars? I would ask if you've ever been in a situation in which people that meant you genuine harm have cornered you? I was in that situation when I was 8, and I assure you that not many people think clearly in that situation. When the flight response is cut off, you resort to fighting in anyway you can. For me that meant biting, kicking and eye-gouging the teenagers trying to beat me into the asphalt, and it worked. For a mage in this setting, it means turning into an abomination to kill the bastards that are trying to kill you.

Actually, yes I have. The difference is, I had the frame of mind not to murder myself when I fought and lost. When you go abomination that's it. You can't be saved, to me that seems like murdering yourself anyway, while also confirming peoples fears about mages. Does it make sense from an emotional perspective, sure I guess. But all it means is they're dead already and need to be destroyed anyway. I've never had much pity for people who let their emotions get the better of them like that.

As to my number of murdered civilians, it's possible that hundreds is a bit extreme, but that was the feeling I got. In one glimpse of one room I counted 6 people, and that building was huge. I saw no evidence to think it was deserted. Then there is the debris.

So, I'm curious. Out of you guys, how many of you supported mages or templars in the final confrontation? Because I have a feeling the mage side is going to have more people, myself included.

[Avilan the Grey]

Actually, yes I have. The difference is, I had the frame of mind not to murder myself when I fought and lost. When you go abomination that's it. You can't be saved, to me that seems like murdering yourself anyway, while also confirming peoples fears about mages. Does it make sense from an emotional perspective, sure I guess. But all it means is they're dead already and need to be destroyed anyway.

Exactly. Not only do you commit suicide, you do it in a way that damn your soul forever, AND cause MORE problems for your kind as a whole. Better just fight to the death. You don't lose yourself, the very essence of your soul, and you will hopefully take at least a few of them with you anyway.

[Psyren]

And they wouldn't be exploited if they joined the Circle. I don't see the problem here.

Wrong, they still are. They are locked up, and the only chance they get to even taste freedom is to fight a Blight or at the whim of this or that Noble. And they leap to do these things, for little to no compensation mind you, simply to get some fresh air. Either way they're being used, and discarded when no longer needed.

If even healing Mages were compensated to the degree that their talents warranted, they would have the lifestyle of skilled surgeons. Their children could serve in office if their political skill and education warranted. They could hold property. Being denied these things through no fault of their own IS exploitation.

And furthermore, what about the land and titles that get stripped from them when they are bundled off to the circle? It's very naive to believe that nobody is profiting from those vacuums - exploitation again.

Uncle Gamlen talking up your abilities also played into it. (Also, having you work off Gamlen's debts is preferable to delivering a beating onto Gamlen, as it doesn't accomplish much.)

Sure he talks you up, but they specifically tell you that Bethany/Magehawke is what got their attention. "Ooh, mage on a leash! Let's conduct the interview!" Carver is (further) embittered by this, while Hawke doesn't really care.

Are we debating whether or not the Templar Order is in need of reform, or we debating whether or not the world was better off under Tevinter rule?

I'll concede the first point readily. But the Chantry's quarantine of mages is still far preferable to the outright tyranny of the Imperium.

"Circle > Tevinter" does not translate to "Circle = functional." They are two different things.

[Kish]

I consider anyone being enslaved unacceptable, and "The people I don't identify with being enslaved is far preferable to the people I do identify with being enslaved; the former deserves a ton of euphemisms like 'quarantine,' the latter is tyranny," rather appalling, m'self.

[Dienekes]

That's where things get awkward for me. As far as I can tell, the mages have it better than your average peasant or serf. Not good, by any means at all, but they get to live comfortable lives where they are provided for. Now the suppression of a working class was fairly necessary to get society to function for the medieval age so I can (and I think most players) forget about it until we see something truly horrific (state approved rape being a big one). Are they being exploited? Yeah, that's basically par for the course with this type of setting. Is their treatment inhumane? Because that's where I would draw the line.

On that count I would say, yes it is inhumane, but the game does not present an adequate solution to combat it. Instead, Anders makes the whole situation worse.

[Giggling Ghast]

Which is a point raised by Zevran at the Anvil of the Void. Plenty of regular people "suffer" in Thedas to a degree that mages do not, and none of them have the capability of turning into psychotic monsters on a whim.

If mages weren't able to practice blood magic or become abominations, then their imprisonment would indeed seem intolerably cruel. The Circle was an imperfect solution to an insurmountable problem.

[Psyren]

Again, my problem is not with the existence of the Circle itself. It does serve many vital functions, chief of which is the Harrowing. And some mages do deserve Tranquility.

My problem is with sequestering them there for their entire lives. Not only is it barbaric, it's unnecessary - they already have a global tracking system via the phylacteries, Let them be free with the knowledge that if they try to be criminals or deal with demons, they can be hunted down by a combined force of mages and templars anywhere in Thedas that they try to hide. Have them check in or be evaluated periodically, and if they fail to do so, they are dragged back to the Tower to explain why (and perhaps face confinement.) Or restrict the majority to Tower life, but let those who prove they can be trustworthy live out in the world as a reward (if they choose.) The Aes Sedai have a similar system - You can't leave the tower when you're a novice and the Power might kill you, when you're Accepted (senior student) you can walk the grounds and even visit the city occasionally. When you become full Aes Sedai your freedom is returned to you in full, save for any assignments your Ajah might impose.

In short, innocent until proven guilty, not the reverse.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Probably going to throw another rock at the hornet's nest here, but in my opinion, a large part of why the Circle is repressive is a sort of vicarious revenge on the part of the Chantry. Remember that they lay the blame on Tevinter's magisters for the death of their prophet and the creation of the darkspawn. While they COULD be more reasonable and flexible with mages as Psyren suggests, they choose NOT to because they feel magekind needs to be punished for their alleged misdeeds against their religion. While this isn't the case in Tevinter, the mages in Tevinter are the bad example everyone touts as justification for the Circle practices. I don't think there's ever been a Tevinter character in the games or literature who was a decent human being.

[Zevox]

So, I'm curious. Out of you guys, how many of you supported mages or templars in the final confrontation? Because I have a feeling the mage side is going to have more people, myself included.

Mages. Never even a question - I was waiting for the opportunity to do something about their situation ever since finding out about it at the start of the first game.

By the by guys, seeing as how this thread has hit page 54, I think it's safe to say a new one is warranted after all. Name suggestions anyone?

[Psyren]

Here's the one I voted for back on 51:

How about "Dragon Age III: The Thread Nobody was Expecting"

Anyhoo, I think the Tevinter Chantry is onto something. The key difference is one of heterodoxy; the Tevinter Divine interprets "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him" as "magic is to serve the common good" and so magecraft and study are encouraged and rewarded. I'm not thrilled about blood magic being an open secret there - too much potential for subversion of government - but the philosophy itself I find admirable enough.

[Aux-Ash]

Something relevant I discovered mere minutes ago: Bioware launched a survey collecting information on gameplay preferences among it's fans.

Link is here

So if you want to make your voice heard to the series developers, this is a great chance to do so.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Anyhoo, I think the Tevinter Chantry is onto something. The key difference is one of heterodoxy; the Tevinter Divine interprets "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him" as "magic is to serve the common good" and so magecraft and study are encouraged and rewarded. I'm not thrilled about blood magic being an open secret there - too much potential for subversion of government - but the philosophy itself I find admirable enough.

What little information we have indicates that's mostly a buzzword to look good to foreigners. The magisters believe their magic gives them a right to treat people like objects, whether as human/elven livestock and labor, or as bloodbags for their spells. I'm of the opinion that even if Tevinter says magic should serve the common good, their version of the common good is good only for themselves and bad for people they deem their inferiors.

[Psyren]

What little information we have indicates that's mostly a buzzword to look good to foreigners. The magisters believe their magic gives them a right to treat people like objects, whether as human/elven livestock and labor, or as bloodbags for their spells. I'm of the opinion that even if Tevinter says magic should serve the common good, their version of the common good is good only for themselves and bad for people they deem their inferiors.

Oh, I agree - it's the philosophy I like, not so much their implementation of it.

Something relevant I discovered mere minutes ago: Bioware launched a survey collecting information on gameplay preferences among it's fans.

Link is here

So if you want to make your voice heard to the series developers, this is a great chance to do so.

Filled it out. One thing that really bugged me, that I pointed out at the end, is that you basically have to manually control your rogue and have them lead the party to have any hope of spotting traps before someone blunders over them. Because my Hawke was a mage, this resulted in having to clunkily switch back to him once the fight started.

I felt really, really happy at seeing Jade Empire as a choice on the "games you've played" list. Give me some hope Bioware

[Divayth Fyr]

And they wouldn't be exploited if they joined the Circle. I don't see the problem here.

Would your response to someone running away from an oppressive regime because they stood againts it be "you wouldn't need to run if you didn't oppose the regime"?

I'm willing to bet it's still less than the number of innocents that died in annulled Circles over the years.

And I'll say we don't know what Anders would do if he could nuke more than one Chantry. ;P

So, I'm curious. Out of you guys, how many of you supported mages or templars in the final confrontation? Because I have a feeling the mage side is going to have more people, myself included.

Seeing how Meredith was shown not to be the most stable person, I predict the same thing (also joined the mages).

Here's the one I voted for back on 51:

How about "Dragon Age III: The Thread Nobody was Expecting"

Seconded.

Anyhoo, I think the Tevinter Chantry is onto something. The key difference is one of heterodoxy; the Tevinter Divine interprets "Magic is to serve man, not rule over him" as "magic is to serve the common good" and so magecraft and study are encouraged and rewarded.

I completely agree.

I'm not thrilled about blood magic being an open secret there - too much potential for subversion of government

While being an open secret might be a bit too much, I think that completely banning blood magic also isn't the best solution - Legacy shows that it can be used to contain/protect things. It might turn out that at some point it simply will be needed.

[Zevox]

Alrighty then, new thread is ready.

[Avilan the Grey]

Something relevant I discovered mere minutes ago: Bioware launched a survey collecting information on gameplay preferences among it's fans.

Link is here

So if you want to make your voice heard to the series developers, this is a great chance to do so.

Thank you.
Now if they only listened to my data and nobody else's, I would pre-order DA:I