LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[nerd-7i+42e]

Welcome, Al'izh'deg. First allow me to provide a disclaimer: I know very little about transgender-iness (including, as you can see, what the noun form of transgender is), so take everything from here on out with a grain of salt. That being said, my understanding of it is that you don't need SRS or surgery to be a "real" trandgender. It's perfectly fine to just think of yourself as a girl in a guy's body and act accordingly — however that means for you. If that's all it takes for you to be happy, then do that.

Now, as for your wife... does she just not want you to have SRS or take hormones, or does she want you to act like the "man of the house" too?

[Gardener]

I'm just going to leave this here. Especially point 6.

[rayne_dragon]

There's a shoe advertisement that specifically advertises "Gender-Colored shoes". Every time I see it, my fist clenches, I think. Blue is male and pink is female, if I remember correctly.

Hyenas are awesome. I had to do a presentation on them for AP Bio maybe? Rest of the class was grossed out, but the teacher thought it was, ahem, in-depth and enlightening.

~ ♅

Gender colour-coding isn't new, but I'm surprised that they'd advertise it like a feature. Can't say I blame you for being irked by it.

Of course, that makes me wonder what colour my shoes would be since I'm genderqueer. Or does that mean I have to run around barefoot?

I'm just going to leave this here. Especially point 6.

Was that linked recently, or did I just stumble across that myself from another recent link? Either way, good stuff to link to.

The even had a post on intersex not being trans, but I didn't think it was really that informative or enlightening on the subject.

[Dogmantra]

Of course, that makes me wonder what colour my shoes would be since I'm genderqueer. Or does that mean I have to run around barefoot?

You wear the shoes on your hands.

[rayne_dragon]

You wear the shoes on your hands.

Ohhh... that's an idea! Still leaves the question of what colour, though.

Also wanted to add a link from the trans 101 link posted above, since it's on the topic of self-determining the words used to identify oneself. I love the word "heteroqueer."

[Knaight]

Of course, that makes me wonder what colour my shoes would be since I'm genderqueer. Or does that mean I have to run around barefoot?

Obviously, you use one of each color.

[Serpentine]

Uh... Purple seems the obvious choice to me?
Either that or white. BE ALL THE COLOURS!

[Gardener]

Ohhh... that's an idea! Still leaves the question of what colour, though.

Also wanted to add a link from the trans 101 link posted above, since it's on the topic of self-determining the words used to identify oneself. I love the word "heteroqueer."

That was a good article. "Or Theo for short" particularly seems like a good sentiment - there's no such thing as a lossless compression, so it's important to let the person themselves decide what parts are more or less important to them.

I really liked A Cliche Trapped in a Metaphor's Body myself. They both have a lot to say about the importance of words, and not letting yourself get caught up in other people's language and conceptions.

"Heteroqueer" is a good word. I'll have to remember it - probably more for a few of my friends than myself, though. Personally, I'm going to start giving "geek" a lot more prominence in my self-identification. It's something I'm a lot more invested in than any directly gendered facets. Ignore my geekiness, and you ignore a huge part of my experiences, so I think it deserves a place in the gamut of adjectives I use to describe myself.

Sorry if I started rambling...

[rayne_dragon]

That was a good article. "Or Theo for short" particularly seems like a good sentiment - there's no such thing as a lossless compression, so it's important to let the person themselves decide what parts are more or less important to them.

I really liked A Cliche Trapped in a Metaphor's Body myself. They both have a lot to say about the importance of words, and not letting yourself get caught up in other people's language and conceptions.

"Heteroqueer" is a good word. I'll have to remember it - probably more for a few of my friends than myself, though. Personally, I'm going to start giving "geek" a lot more prominence in my self-identification. It's something I'm a lot more invested in than any directly gendered facets. Ignore my geekiness, and you ignore a huge part of my experiences, so I think it deserves a place in the gamut of adjectives I use to describe myself.

Sorry if I started rambling...

Cliche Trapped in a Metaphor's Body was good, but not exactly something I can related to. I've always felt trapped by being in a gendered body so that metaphor has always seemed particularly apt to me. Of course, it doesn't fit for every person who isn't what they might be percieved as.

The problem with these things is that while there might be all sorts of supportive information and organizations, there's still a large portion of the world where one can't be certain that one's defiance of heteronormativity will be accepted or even tolerated. One can call themselves whatever they want, but other people will still slap on whatever label they feel like, regardless of how hurtful it may be and those people might be strangers, or they might be people one knows and thought were friends.

[Gardener]

Cliche Trapped in a Metaphor's Body was good, but not exactly something I can related to. I've always felt trapped by being in a gendered body so that metaphor has always seemed particularly apt to me. Of course, it doesn't fit for every person who isn't what they might be percieved as.

The problem with these things is that while there might be all sorts of supportive information and organizations, there's still a large portion of the world where one can't be certain that one's defiance of heteronormativity will be accepted or even tolerated. One can call themselves whatever they want, but other people will still slap on whatever label they feel like, regardless of how hurtful it may be and those people might be strangers, or they might be people one knows and thought were friends.

To me, it's my body. There are lots of ways it isn't to my liking, not all related to gender, and I'll probably never fix all of them, but that's okay on one level. It's like a house you want to renovate. Even if you don't actually fix the leaky roof, add the extensions you're thinking about, or redecorate, it's a lot easier to live in the house to know that the house is yours and if you really felt a need to, you could change any or all of these things - compared to being "trapped" in a bad rental agreement (disempowering self-conception).

Did I just use a metaphor for a metaphor?

Anyway, it's all a deeply personal thing. I was always a little put off by the fact that my "inner girl" isn't very girly, so that article helped me think about just being me, instead of being any of society's expectations.

Re other people being hurtful: Yes, but that's their problem. I just have to deal with being hurt/upset/whatever. I don't have to worry about being wrong about my own identity, too.

[Lissou]

I certainly don't feel trapped in my body. It's not horrifying or ugly, and as I grew I got to like it more and more. I really hated it when I was a teen, I hated that I had breasts now and it made everything less practical, I hated that I started being treated differently than the boys when it didn't use to make a difference, and I hated that I couldn't pretend to be one or the other depending on my mood as I used to be able to.

But now, it's like, that's the body I have. Does it change who I am inside? No way. I liked the "or Theo for short" because I've always felt that when people ask me if I'm male of female, gender-wise I always want to answer "I'm ME". My body is female, I'm just me.

But I like my body, now that I know how it works, and how to use it, and how to get pleasure from it. I like that the people I'm attracted to (males) tend to react to my female body. I would have a higher chance to hate it if I liked females.

I like how my body gets people to tell me I'm very feminine, and my actions can get people to tell me I'm "such a guy". Because I want to be both or neither, not restricted to being just one. Ultimately I wish nobody described my mentality as either, only my body, because my body is obviously a female body and that's how I believe it should be described, but inside I'm just me and I wish it transcended male and female words. People don't tell me my brain is white or black, or short or tall, or fat or thin. They shouldn't feel it's male or female, either, because it's my mind, and it's immaterial, and it's none of these physical things.

But as a physical representation of me, my body isn't the best thing ever, and shape-shifting would be an awesome power to have. But it'll do. I got used to it by now.

On the other hand, from a purely physical point of view... yeah, we're all trapped in our bodies. Our minds are inside our bodies and they're not getting anywhere. So I totally get that turn of phrase too.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Looks like I have some reading to do.

An update with my wife. I brought up the subject of gender again last night, but wasn't happy with the results. Maybe I'm just reading more into her statements than she intends, but every suggestion, no matter how "hidden" or mundane was rejected at first. Then I would express displeasure and she would acquiesce. It just felt like she was totally okay with this as long as I did it behind a closet, out of sight, and didn't mention it at all.

I guess this shouldn't be surprising, but this is the same woman who's exploits in her 20's were very much akin to Chasing Amy. Experimentation with multiple partners of both sexes, sexual orientation, etc. I'm just... ugh, this is really terrible.

[Qaera]

Ohhh... that's an idea! Still leaves the question of what colour, though.

Also wanted to add a link from the trans 101 link posted above, since it's on the topic of self-determining the words used to identify oneself. I love the word "heteroqueer."

Rainbow, of course! White is also good, or black~

On the "man/woman trapped in a woman/man's body" always made it sounds like it was two people to me... So would SRS be considered homoicide?

~ ♅

[Mina Kobold]

Of course, that makes me wonder what colour my shoes would be since I'm genderqueer. Or does that mean I have to run around barefoot?

Obviously you wear purple sandals on your hands and orange gloves on your feet.

Being barefoot mean you are a hippie, non-comformist and individual!

...

Wait.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Being barefoot mean you are a hippie, non-comformist and individual!

And here I thought it meant you were a hobbit.

[Mono Vertigo]

I'm a brain trapped in a skull trapped in a woman's body, and I'm using the available interface so I can get some help. No, not really.

[golentan]

I'm a krynch trapped in a man's body...

Also, I think hobbits and hippies may have some overlap.

[turkishproverb]

Eh, I'm probably a catboy trapped in a man's body, but then I'm a catboy so by definition I don't care that much.

[Coidzor]

Eh, I'm probably a catboy trapped in a man's body, but then I'm a catboy so by definition I don't care that much.

Been holding out on us, Turk! And here I'd thought you were a dorf being harassed by eyeballs.

[turkishproverb]

I have? Sorry.



The avatar though, that's a reference to my original custom avatar on the site, now lost to the depths of webbyness...

[golentan]

Made me laugh.

Spoiler

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[Al'izh'dheg]

I've been quiet lately, but I wanted to come here and thank everybody for the help and information given. It was really appreciated.

Things at home are not settled yet, and I don't know if my wife will ever truly understand. The one thing I have told her is that I still love her, and the only change to that is that it grows daily. The rest I'm still figuring out.

[KenderWizard]

Welcome, new... person. I do know that stuff can get confusing: it seems like everyone knew I was bi before I did (family excluded) and it took me forever to come to terms with it despite having nothing against non-heterosexuality at any point. I don't really understand gender problems, but I can only guess they're more confusing (and made more so by lack of knowledge that such things might apply).

Edit: Random note, but does anyone else get really angry at some advertisements? The one that's got me mad at the moment is Miller Light: reinforcing gender stereotypes and insulting people who aren't sufficiently "manly." Never buying your product, guys. Never.

Ooh, I get so angry! Loads of ads are sexist, anti-gay, often mildly racist, sometimes surprisingly racist, and the more I think about them the worse it gets. I'm hoping someday to hit the point where I can go "No, wait, you're reading too much into that. It's a bi-racial gay couple raising children to express their gender identities healthily, but if they had _no_ problems, there wouldn't be a product or service to sell. Their minor problem isn't a slur against them." But so far, no.

Looks like I have some reading to do.

An update with my wife. I brought up the subject of gender again last night, but wasn't happy with the results. Maybe I'm just reading more into her statements than she intends, but every suggestion, no matter how "hidden" or mundane was rejected at first. Then I would express displeasure and she would acquiesce. It just felt like she was totally okay with this as long as I did it behind a closet, out of sight, and didn't mention it at all.

I guess this shouldn't be surprising, but this is the same woman who's exploits in her 20's were very much akin to Chasing Amy. Experimentation with multiple partners of both sexes, sexual orientation, etc. I'm just... ugh, this is really terrible.

How fast is this happening? Obviously, I've never come out to my wife as a female despite having a male body, but if my husband came out to me like that ... and I was a straight woman ... I would need time to come to terms with that. Actually, I think I'd still need time to come to terms with it. I don't know what your wife is thinking, but it's very possible she's trying to be supportive by saying supportive things but isn't comfortable enough to actually make concrete concessions to this potentially huge change to your shared life at this point. Let her know you want her to be happy to talk to you about this the same way you'd talk about any issue that came up, and give her the time she needs. If the two of you are still having trouble, I would be inclined to try some kind of couples counselling with someone trained to help people in this quite rare situation or similar situations.

Also, welcome to the jungle! We've got fun and games here, and also, supportive discussion about gender and sexuality issues from a non-heteronormative viewpoint.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Thanks, Kender. You're right... this is a shock to her, and I should be more understanding of that. I'm just so... twisted up inside, and I need help sorting my feelings. Naturally, my wife is the person I turn to for help with this. But I'm so terrified of losing her, I cannot describe it. And then there's the evil voice in my head telling me that I'm worthless or a freak (this isn't a new development, I've struggled with what Christopher Titus calls my "Inner Idiot" for most of my life), and that if my own WIFE balks at this, then what hope is there for the rest of society?

And then there's the logical part of myself telling me that until I actually get my feelings settled down, there's no reason to worry at all as I may not actually want to change anything at all. *sigh* Did I mention before that I despise feelings? They are so... messy.

Oh, on another note, I did join a LGBT-friendly guild in Rift last night and had a blast. It was the most roleplaying I've done in that game thus far, and really cheered me up quite a bit. :)

[Gardener]

People are going to balk. They're going to look at you a bit funny at first. It's unfortunate, but it's just a fact of how people tend to react to surprises. Its doesn't mean they're hateful or unaccepting. They're just surprised. So don't write someone off just because they can't be cheerful about it right away - people who care about you will find a way to work around their own insecurities and be supportive and helpful. And honestly, you might find that the rest of society is more accepting simply because they're less invested in you. To your wife, you're her husband, and likely very important to her life and identity. Your announcement throws that all into doubt, and she might need a little time to reassemble it. To J. Random Citizen, you're just one person, and you're not going to cause too many existential crises in those around you because at worst, they can just ignore you. They've got no established relationship with you, so while you might be weird, as far as they know, you always were.

It'd be better if they did react with immediate enthusiasm, of course, but that's just not always going to happen. And if you're still confused, imagine how your wife feels - from her perspective, everything was more or less fine, and now she's probably thinking if she did anything wrong to suddenly have this great big issue crop up. It's irrational. Hopefully, it'll pass fairly quickly. Try not to get downhearted over it right now.

[KenderWizard]

I agree with Gardener. Also, if you're feeling all emotionally confused and unhappy about this, maybe you could use someone to talk to who isn't invested. A therapist or an LGBT support person or suchlike. Or someone who's gone through a similar adjustment. That might give you the opportunity to sort your head out while giving your wife some space. It sounds like you really love her, I'm sure you can make this work, even if it's a difficult journey.

[Al'izh'dheg]

Thanks guys. To be honest, I'm a bit scared. I know this will work out eventually, I just hope I'm okay at the end of it.

[Coidzor]

Thanks guys. To be honest, I'm a bit scared. I know this will work out eventually, I just hope I'm okay at the end of it.

Where there is life, there is hope, after all.

But yeah, that whole "if my wife has issue, then what about society?!" is basically backwards. This is the sort of thing where it's more likely to have issues with one's mate, as this does actually impact them. Society is ****, of course, because it's made of people and people are, well, idiots and want to imitate weak, stupid prey animals instead of the apex predators that we are.

[Hawkflight]

Speaking of hated things, anyone else forced to become far more familiar than they want to be with Your Favorite Martian? It managed to use those two in the most offensive way possible, to the point of releasing a song called "(censored gendered slur) Got a Penis".

*watches the first few seconds of it*

*proceeds to report it as "offensive"*

There's a shoe advertisement that specifically advertises "Gender-Colored shoes". Every time I see it, my fist clenches, I think. Blue is male and pink is female, if I remember correctly.

Funny if random story. Did you know pink used to be considered a masculine color, since it's a shade of red? And blue used to be considered a feminine color, since it was so calm? I wonder when that changed....

[snip]

I don't have much advice to offer here, as I'm still fairly new to this myself. But you're definitely not the only one in such a position.

Eh, I'm probably a catboy trapped in a man's body, but then I'm a catboy so by definition I don't care that much.

*points at my sig*

Thanks, Kender. You're right... this is a shock to her, and I should be more understanding of that. I'm just so... twisted up inside, and I need help sorting my feelings. Naturally, my wife is the person I turn to for help with this. But I'm so terrified of losing her, I cannot describe it. And then there's the evil voice in my head telling me that I'm worthless or a freak (this isn't a new development, I've struggled with what Christopher Titus calls my "Inner Idiot" for most of my life), and that if my own WIFE balks at this, then what hope is there for the rest of society?

And then there's the logical part of myself telling me that until I actually get my feelings settled down, there's no reason to worry at all as I may not actually want to change anything at all. *sigh* Did I mention before that I despise feelings? They are so... messy.

Have you considered seeing a councilor about this? I am, and it's making all the difference in the world.

[Serpentine]

I've heard, somewhere, that it's because of superstition - the colours were swapped on babies, because fairies and things would want to steal away valuable little boys, and no one cared as much about the girls.