LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Coidzor]

Just telling her (or me, if that is to whom you are targeting your remarks) to have an attitude adjustment won't work, unless your words are inherently filled with mind altering magic.

In and of itself, no. But considering she needs a major reality check anyway given her situation, getting rid of the aspect of things is only to her benefit.

Further, her feeling that way is no excuse for feeding her negative emotions. You don't encourage depression or anxiety in people you care about either.

But either way, it doesn't matter if it is or is not lying, but rather whether or not it makes her feel bad.

The facts of the matter always have some bearing on the situation at hand and whether one should be feeling the way one is feeling.

See above. It doesn't have to do with maliciousness or intent, it has to do with the person feeling like they are deceiving another person, even if unintentionally, or in this case with the other party being a complete jerk about it, by not letting that person know who they fully are.

Someone who abuses one's self does not deserve to know who one fully is. And that misguided idea is but one of many things that needs to be dealt with in order to get her to the place where she can secure her safety and future if there's any kind of seriousness to the risks and threats involved.

As a teenager, sexuality seriously does a lot to define you

Not, generally, to one's parents, as one is best served by having the expression of one's sexuality and one's parents separate. If one's parents are good, then one's sexuality is irrelevant to them. If they're bad, then mixing sex and one's parents only leads to sorrow for the offspring.

Not being open (even if you aren't actively lying) about that part of yourself feels like you are concealing it from others, and that, given that those people are really close to you (even if you don't want to be close to those people), you feel guilty about it, it doesn't matter whether or not you are "really" lying about something.

It does for combatting this kind of negativity that does nothing but hold one back, cause frustration, and lead to the desire to say things that are only going to bring one grief.

I could care less whether she is really lying about it, or half lying about it, or even telling her parents about it. All I care about is her physical and emotional well being, which means that I can and should be factoring how she feels into it, which to me is more important than whether or not she is lying. How she feels depends entirely upon her outlook right now, and is not something that can easily (or, really, at all) changed.

Then you definitely shouldn't be encouraging and accepting such negative emotions, even in your way of dealing with discussing it with us.

[Fox Box Socks]

I'm sure this is old news, but congratulations, bisexual men! You exist!

In related news, follow-up studies hope to reveal what color the sky is and whether fun toys are indeed fun.

[golentan]

Basically, how is one an effective beard?

Don't be? Seriously, don't be. It can only make life worse in the long run. If she's gay, she's taking a step backwards emotionally and undermining her parent's trust and ability to come around by going back in the closet. If she's bi, then dating a guy isn't effective as a beard anyway, and pretending to date a guy who isn't an option rather than one she would like is a pointless and emotionally damaging lie for both of you.

In general, bearding is way worse than being in the closet in every way in that it forces a friend to lie for you or lying to a friend who will feel betrayed and rightfully so when they find out. DON'T DO IT!

[WarKitty]

Those who would misuse the truth don't deserve to have it.

I know, it doesn't help a lot. But that may be the best attitude to take. Parents do not get respect simply by having a child. Her parents haven't earned the truth.

[Lyesmith]

Don't be? Seriously, don't be. It can only make life worse in the long run. If she's gay, she's taking a step backwards emotionally and undermining her parent's trust and ability to come around by going back in the closet. If she's bi, then dating a guy isn't effective as a beard anyway, and pretending to date a guy who isn't an option rather than one she would like is a pointless and emotionally damaging lie for both of you.

In general, bearding is way worse than being in the closet in every way in that it forces a friend to lie for you or lying to a friend who will feel betrayed and rightfully so when they find out. DON'T DO IT!

Either we run a smoke-and-mirrors on her parents, or she degenerates into a self-hatred spiral and winds up banging married dudes to try and turn herself straight. No actual dating will be required, hell, even meeting the parents may not be needed. She wants to have a good relationship with her parents, and isn't seeing any other way to do it. Yeah, it sucks, but from where she's standing she's got no other options. Are there any? Because that'd be nice.

[Coidzor]

And, on the neat subject of plots and deceptions, my freind claimed to have been weighing up the pros and cons of an affair with a married man in order to repair her (severely damaged post-coming-out) relationship with her parents. She's unwilling to lose them, so I advised her to try getting a beard.

Someone in this situation is in serious need of help if being the other woman in a marriage is something that's even considered as a possibility for repairing one's relationship with one's parents.

Especially if it's over issues of sexuality in the first place.

Lying to them or demonstrating that she's a cheater do not seem conducive to repairing a relationship, especially if it still exists at all post-coming out.

Basically, how is one an effective beard?

Good genes, good grooming, avoiding setting fire to one's face or taking significant dermal or sub-dermal damage. I haven't really found many tools to alter the texture of one's beard or encourage it to grow more quickly. have a lot more tools for sculpting it and making it not grow in places we don't want it.

I think Trog and Zeb have garnered some useful information over the years on the subject.

self-hatred spiral and winds up banging married dudes to try and turn herself straight.

...That is definitely an issue, and not one that would be helped at all by lying.

[DeadManSleeping]

Her parents haven't earned the truth.

You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!



Look, as far as the whole 'lying' argument goes, I think it can be resolved with a matter of pros and cons.

Lying
Pros:
-Allows continued financial support
-Reduces attacks from family members
Cons:
-Violates morality
Not Lying
Pros:
-It's the right thing to do!
Cons:
-Possible loss of safe home
-Possible loss of ability to attend college
-Certainty of increased hostility from family

Hmm...wow, that's a tough one! Oh, wait, it's really not. In some cases, honesty builds trust and relationships, even when it's about something negative. This is not one of those cases. We're not like animals, which lie in order to get extra bananas. There really are lies we need to tell for sheer self-preservation.

But make sure you do it right. Getting caught would really suck.

[Cobra_Ikari]

I'd say go with the lying, if the truth leads to, you know...awfulness. But where lying is concerned, I've always found the best ways are to leave out things you know people won't want to hear, and agree with statements they make that you know aren't true. If you start making things up, you'll end up making far too many mistakes.

It seems weird to offer advice on lying, but...that's what I found was the best way to avoid a parent's wrath. Or at least postpone it for a while...

[unosarta]

In and of itself, no. But considering she needs a major reality check anyway given her situation, getting rid of the aspect of things is only to her benefit.

Further, her feeling that way is no excuse for feeding her negative emotions. You don't encourage depression or anxiety in people you care about either.

A good point, however I am unsure of how effective that will be in making her feel less negative emotions.

I am hardly feeding her negative emotions, dude. I haven't even had contact with her (besides Tumblr) in three days, or so. I am trying to see how she would see in this situation by using my own situation as a parallel, but I don't even know. And I can tell you, from the information I have right now, I know I would hardly be any happier if someone told me it "wasn't really lying". Given that that is all the information I have, and that I haven't even gotten in contact with her since then, you can hardly say I am feeding her negative emotions or encouraging her depression/anxiety. In fact, I was pretty explicit about how I don't actually know what she is feeling, and that I was using my own parallel as a way to try to see how she was feeling, using our aforementioned argument as basis for her side.

The facts of the matter always have some bearing on the situation at hand and whether one should be feeling the way one is feeling.

Um... what? Why is whether or not one should be feeling the way one is feeling helpful to her at all? If I tell her that it's okay, you shouldn't be feeling these things because you aren't really lying to your parents, that is highly unlikely to change how she is actually feeling about something.

Not, generally, to one's parents, as one is best served by having the expression of one's sexuality and one's parents separate. If one's parents are good, then one's sexuality is irrelevant to them. If they're bad, then mixing sex and one's parents only leads to sorrow for the offspring.

Sexuality does not solely define relationships. Sexuality also defines, in part, who you are, who you are being your personality. In part, one could say that that is because sexuality defines your relationships, since it defines who you are more likely to build relationships with, how those relationships develop, and that in turn helps to define a person. In addition, that will not stop a parent most certainly worrying about how their child will have sex (look at all the worried parents asking their offspring when they will have children; they are fundamentally worried about the sex, since that is where babies come from). And to be honest, I am just confused by your statement here. How does mixing a bad parent with sex lead to sorrow? And what exactly do you mean by sex, in this instance?

It does for combatting this kind of negativity that does nothing but hold one back, cause frustration, and lead to the desire to say things that are only going to bring one grief.

But it doesn't combat the negativity, it does cause frustration, and it does lead to the desire to say things that are only going to bring one grief. That is literally what I had been saying that whole post.

Then you definitely shouldn't be encouraging and accepting such negative emotions, even in your way of dealing with discussing it with us.

How exactly are you proposing that I combat those negative emotions? If I cannot stop them from happening then I have no choice but to accept them and work around them. How how exactly am I encouraging them, here? Seriously? Are you really accusing me of trying to make my friend feel worse about herself?

[golentan]

Deadman, you're ignoring some of the pros of telling the truth. Telling the truth makes it a controlled circumstance (you determine when, where, and how to disseminate the information), deception adds stress exacerbating existing depression, and emotional and financial dependence on an abusive source puts you at higher risk long term for losing your footing completely (see "controlled situation").

[DeadManSleeping]

Deadman, you're ignoring some of the pros of telling the truth. Telling the truth makes it a controlled circumstance (you determine when, where, and how to disseminate the information), deception adds stress exacerbating existing depression, and emotional and financial dependence on an abusive source puts you at higher risk long term for losing your footing completely (see "controlled situation").

Except for the fact that, you know, sometimes you're forced to compromise information, which is the opposite of a "controlled situation". If that weren't true then we wouldn't even be having this discussion, now would we?

And you know what also exacerbates depression? Being kicked out of your home and having your family say you're dead to them.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Telling the truth makes it a controlled circumstance (you determine when, where, and how to disseminate the information)

When dealing with irrational people or irrational prejudice, the truth sometimes is the one thing that makes you lose all control entirely over the situation.

[Kneenibble]

When dealing with irrational people or irrational prejudice, the truth sometimes is the one thing that makes you lose all control entirely over the situation.

Are you the truth? For I have lost all control.
*flings self upon in a flurry of feathers and giggling*
I haven't contributed meaningfully to this thread in years. I'm like the washed up drag queen drinking Tom Collins in the corner of the 20s bar.

[golentan]

... You know what? I had an angry half dozen paragraphs all typed up and ready to blast all the ways I think you're wrong, but it's just not worth it. If you think you can con love or support out of people, or that financial dependence on people who hate you (real you) is a solid game plan, or that knowing they hate you and lying about it and living under constant fear of discovery is better than just knowing they hate you... you deserve to make that decision. You deserve to live with those consequences.

Seriously. I can condone taking the time to make contingency plans before acting, because yes, just blurting things out can give the illusion that the truth makes life uncontrollable. I can condone deception in cases where the truth will literally injure or kill you. But I can't believe a life lived in fear and lies is ever preferable to one where you have the courage to stand up for the truth and for yourself.

[Coidzor]

But I can't believe a life lived in fear and lies is ever preferable to one where you have the courage to stand up for the truth and for yourself.

I'm pretty sure that's not what's being advocated here anyway.

edit: Wait. Are we talking about unosarta's friend or lyesmith's friend now?

[DeadManSleeping]

Do you go around announcing to your bosses and your teachers your gender and sexual identity? I bet you don't. And those are people whose control over your life can and will be replaced by someone else's control. Parents are a whole other ball game.

I won't tell anyone to not stand up for themselves. But I won't tell anyone that they have to do it either, especially not when they're young enough that standing up on their own may be a difficult task indeed. There is always a time to stop the hiding and the lies. But that time may not be today, and I don't feel like we have the knowledge or the right to say that it is for this young person.

Whatever she decides, though...she deserves to know that there are people who are behind her. Even if you're not gonna be her beard, Lyesmith, it sounds like you're someone she should be able to count on. Stick close to her, eh?

[unosarta]

Do you go around announcing to your bosses and your teachers your gender and sexual identity? I bet you don't. And those are people whose control over your life can and will be replaced by someone else's control. Parents are a whole other ball game.

Actually, yes, depending on the situation. For bosses, your perceived gender identity and sexuality might change how they treat you (or currently does affect how they treat you), and clarifying that situation is all for the better.

In the case of teachers, I usually let any teachers I have who teach creative writing or English know because that can and will affect my writing. I let some other teachers know if it if the situation becomes necessary.

Those people also do not control your life. Your boss controls your job, to a lesser extent, but cannot control your personal choices. All he controls is how you act on your job, which one would hope is not the full extent of your life, and if your performance on said job is worthy of keeping you hired.

Your teacher controls nothing more than your education and how you act in their class. These are important things, and certainly life-changing, but again not your life. They cannot control your life choices outside of their class-room setting, therefore they do not control your life.

Of course, one could make this same argument with parents. At a young age, while you are a minor, they do effectively have the "right" to control your life choices, to a certain degree (of course this also requires some acceptance on the part of the child, but anywho). However, after you become an adult, they lose any right they have to control your life decisions, outside of extorting those decisions from you in a social context, and even then those means are not guaranteed to work.

[Serpentine]

I can condone taking the time to make contingency plans before acting, because yes, just blurting things out can give the illusion that the truth makes life uncontrollable.

The main things being suggested here fall under this category, and are merely coming under the discussion of "lying" because Unosarta believes his friend would feel like that would be lying.
Because while you're "taking the time to make contingency plans", you're keeping that information away from the parents. And that's the main thing that's been suggested: don't tell them until you're able to look after yourself. To which Unosarta responded: she will feel like she's lying. To which the others said: it's not lying, but even if it is, it's the acceptable sort of lying. To which you respond: I can't believe you're telling her to lie. Just don't tell them until she's able to look after herself. Which, you know, brings us back to the start.

[Coidzor]

So how do we break the cycle?

edit: Come to think of it, is there anything that can actually be transmitted to provide guidance about wrestling with this sort of thing or direct to a more static source of information/support resources? Or at least lays it out slightly more organized in presentation than a forum's back and forth of banter?

Or even advice for gauging the kind of situation lyesmith's friend finds herself in, so as to avoid jumping to stress-induced conclusions and instead have a slightly better footing for approaching it?

[Serpentine]

Acknowledge that you're all pretty much talking about the same thing?

[Asta Kask]

What's bearding? It sounds kinky.

[Mono Vertigo]

@Asta Kask: it's not, actually. A beard is someone who goes out with someone else for the express purpose of helping that someone else deceive others (so not out of love, or greed). A common example for a beard is a woman going out with a gay man so he can appear straight to everyone else. And no, sadly, the beard doesn't always have to be aware of their role (so, for example, you can have a married couple with children where one of the spouse is homosexual and the other blissfully ignorant).

[Knaight]

Deadman, you're ignoring some of the pros of telling the truth. Telling the truth makes it a controlled circumstance (you determine when, where, and how to disseminate the information), deception adds stress exacerbating existing depression, and emotional and financial dependence on an abusive source puts you at higher risk long term for losing your footing completely (see "controlled situation").

All telling the truth does in this sort of situation is escalate it. Everything I've seen of bad relationships suggests that telling some people things they don't want to know is a quick way to the wonders of physical abuse, and there is no way that others access to information that is, frankly, none of their business is somehow more important than minimizing injury. The situation is bad enough already, there is no need to make it worse, at this point it is clearly a matter of simply lasting long enough to get out of there.

[Asta Kask]

@Asta Kask: it's not, actually.

Hope springs eternal.

That's more or less what I guessed, and in that case - will it risk your friendship with this woman, will she blame you if you do it... or don't do it. If you care for your friendship with her, you will try to do what's best for her (that's what friendship is). So think about how it will affect your friendship and what to do will follow.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't do it unless she risked actual physical harm.

[golentan]

The main things being suggested here fall under this category, and are merely coming under the discussion of "lying" because Unosarta believes his friend would feel like that would be lying.
Because while you're "taking the time to make contingency plans", you're keeping that information away from the parents. And that's the main thing that's been suggested: don't tell them until you're able to look after yourself. To which Unosarta responded: she will feel like she's lying. To which the others said: it's not lying, but even if it is, it's the acceptable sort of lying. To which you respond: I can't believe you're telling her to lie. Just don't tell them until she's able to look after herself. Which, you know, brings us back to the start.

No, I'm not. I originally gave advice on taking the time to make contingency plans. My angry rants are directed at some comments that sure looked like they were out and out advocating lying.

[KenderWizard]

Either we run a smoke-and-mirrors on her parents, or she degenerates into a self-hatred spiral and winds up banging married dudes to try and turn herself straight. No actual dating will be required, hell, even meeting the parents may not be needed. She wants to have a good relationship with her parents, and isn't seeing any other way to do it. Yeah, it sucks, but from where she's standing she's got no other options. Are there any? Because that'd be nice.

She could tell them she's not looking for a relationship right now to focus on school / career / whatever. But I think the relationship with her parents isn't going to be "good" if it's based on a lie. It might be more cordial, but it won't be "good".

[Asta Kask]

Sometimes cordial is the best you can hope for...

[Danne]

*pokes angry arguments*

I haven't contributed meaningfully to this thread in years. I'm like the washed up drag queen drinking Tom Collins in the corner of the 20s bar.

No worries, dear, we love you anyway.

[Coidzor]

Sometimes cordial is the best you can hope for...

I hear they're great for cold nights, some even have medicinal purposes. Unless we're talking the cherries. In which case I never really got those.

[Hawkflight]

Hey all.

I just wanted to share an amusing anecdote that happened to me today. I was trying to ask someone on campus if there was an LGBT club/alliance on campus, but I kinda fumbled it and said something like this:

"Hey, I was wondering. Is there a Lesbian Bay Bi ... wait. Lesbian Bay, yeah, that would be an interesting Bay, wouldn't it? "

Just thought y'all might get a giggle out of that.