LGBTAitp - Part Fifteen

[Heliomance]

You know, this is this kind of pretty MtF who have some of us "become" bisexual. or more exactly, find out they were bisexual.

Well, she's no longer making me question my sexuality, now that she presents as pretty much unambiguously female. It's okay to think she's hot now! :P

[LaZodiac]

Well, she's no longer making me question my sexuality, now that she presents as pretty much unambiguously female. It's okay to think she's hot now! :P

Er, not to be rude, but aren't you the guy that just bought a nice elegant dress?

[Nix Nihila]

As I understand it, Helio is MtF and a Lesbian. I could be confused though..

And I wanna see your dress!

[KingOfLaughter]

As I understand it, Helio is MtF and a Lesbian. I could be confused though..

And I wanna see your dress!

I understand it the same way.

Same! Dress pictures! :P

[Lissou]

I think the other part is I just don't feel that comfortable flirting with cis men in a situation where sex would normally be considered to be somewhere down the line. I just feel like I'm being a tease, showing sexual interest in a guy and then saying "sorry I don't actually like that."

I can imagine it would be a tricky situation. You can't really wear a shirt that says "I don't like penis (but I do like men)" or something. Good luck, although I have no clue how I could help.

I've also met some bisexuals who believed that everyone was really bisexual... implying that I, and all other straight men - and all lesbians - just hadn't met the right man... and the same for gay men, straight women and the right woman.

My guess is that they're projecting. I've seen lots of poly people who go "everyone is poly, it's just that some haven't questioned monogamy yet" but that's not true.
It could also be because everyone being bisexual would make sense and solve a lot of stuff. When I was growing up I kept wishing I could be bisexual, or really I kept wishing everyone could be bisexual, because it just made the most sense to me. But I'm straight, there is no way around it.

I can't see how a rape can be corrective. This is moronic to so many levels i cannot even account them.

I think it's a mix of two things.
One: "corrective" is a word that can be used for punishments. At least I've heard it used for spanking. The idea isn't that the person will like being spanked, but that they'll stop what caused the spanking. Here, since the woman is going to have sex with a man anyway, the idea is that she'll do it on her own rather than be raped, I imagine. In that way, it's meant to be unpleasant.

The other idea that exists is that men are so awesome a woman can only be a lesbian because she has never known a man. So if you rape her she'll be like "OMG I didn't realise sex with a man was so awesome. I'm totally straight now."
You might think it's stupid, but as a vegetarian I've experienced the exact same thing a lot with people in other contexts. For instance if I'm not interested in sports or a specific series or a game, they'll show it to me anyways thinking if I see it I'll like it or push me to play it until I do to make them shut up, and of course hate it even if I would have loved it otherwise.
That's because the person likes it and projects, so they believe you'll have to like it. But of course when there is already a dislike a lack of want, and then you're forced, any potential enjoyment vanishes. If you're raped by someone you love, have had sex with before and would have sex with again (but not right now), you're not going to enjoy it, because it's rape. I think people are missing that crucial point here.

[golentan]

Speaking of beautiful transwomen... I have nothing to add to the conversation but just wanted to bring up the fact that I've been seeing a beautiful gal again.

[LaZodiac]

Hooray for Golentan. Infact, hooray for everyone. It seems like everyone is getting up in the world *knock on wood*

[DeadManSleeping]

I can imagine it would be a tricky situation. You can't really wear a shirt that says "I don't like penis (but I do like men)" or something. Good luck, although I have no clue how I could help.

A custom t-shirt costs at most $15, and that's if you don't know where to find good prices.

Or did you mean for some other reason?

[Dogmantra]

Spoiler

Show

so... I just watched a documentary about a 16 year old boy trying to "come out" as a drag queen. His situation isn't the most similar to mine (I guess we're both out as not exactly being straight but he was pretty comfortably cis which I guess couldn't be further from the truth with me?)

It got me wondering though. I awkwardly bought some girl clothes with a friend the other day (it only took like one minute of painfully dry throat to talk!) and before you ask no you can't have pictures (I'm too pretty I'd break your brainface) but I really want to actually make sure my parents uh... know.

RECAP: I'm male-bodied, pansexual (or bisexual if you prefer to think of pansexual as another word for bi let's not get into arguments about THAT again), almost certainly not male but only maybe female. I don't even know dude. Don't even know.

The deal is this:
As far as I know my father understands it as I'm not straight. I'm not sure how far beyond that it goes.
My mother on the other hand I think knows that I don't really "get" gender. At least in terms of attraction. I think some confusion though comes from the fact I thought I was gay (and assumed I was cis) for a long time and I clumsily tried to tell her then. I've since made sure to revise those statements, and we've had some conversations. She even one time asked if I thought I was trans and I said no. I tried to explain what being genderqueer is, but partly because I'm actually confuzed so much about being it myself, and there's not exactly a totally agreed-upon definition that I can tell her to just look up, it didn't go the wellest. I'm not entirely sure that she understands and I think that she might react to my saying "oh yeah I totally have a secret skirt which I wear sometimes when you're not in" as me pointing to myself and yelling "ME NO MANDUDE ME GIRLPERSON" which is hardly accurate (the term is "girlchick", sheesh mum).

On the other hand... I kind of want to clear the air as it were, just so that I can undercut any assumptions and awkward "OH HEY I WAS CLEANING YOUR ROOM EARLIER" conversations that TV has led me to believe happen LITERALLY EVERY TIME someone's keeping a secret from their parents.

So assuming any of that was at least a tiny bit coherent, does anyone have advices or any stories of similar experiences?

[Petrocorus]

It seems like everyone is getting up in the world *knock on wood*

Excuse me, but could you explain this sentence to a non-natural English speaker.

[LaZodiac]

Excuse me, but could you explain this sentence to a non-natural English speaker.

When someone says something that isn't sure to happen, and you want it to happen, it is a superstition to "knock on wood" to make sure it DOES happen.

[Nix Nihila]

Spoiler

Show

so... I just watched a documentary about a 16 year old boy trying to "come out" as a drag queen. His situation isn't the most similar to mine (I guess we're both out as not exactly being straight but he was pretty comfortably cis which I guess couldn't be further from the truth with me?)

It got me wondering though. I awkwardly bought some girl clothes with a friend the other day (it only took like one minute of painfully dry throat to talk!) and before you ask no you can't have pictures (I'm too pretty I'd break your brainface) but I really want to actually make sure my parents uh... know.

RECAP: I'm male-bodied, pansexual (or bisexual if you prefer to think of pansexual as another word for bi let's not get into arguments about THAT again), almost certainly not male but only maybe female. I don't even know dude. Don't even know.

The deal is this:
As far as I know my father understands it as I'm not straight. I'm not sure how far beyond that it goes.
My mother on the other hand I think knows that I don't really "get" gender. At least in terms of attraction. I think some confusion though comes from the fact I thought I was gay (and assumed I was cis) for a long time and I clumsily tried to tell her then. I've since made sure to revise those statements, and we've had some conversations. She even one time asked if I thought I was trans and I said no. I tried to explain what being genderqueer is, but partly because I'm actually confuzed so much about being it myself, and there's not exactly a totally agreed-upon definition that I can tell her to just look up, it didn't go the wellest. I'm not entirely sure that she understands and I think that she might react to my saying "oh yeah I totally have a secret skirt which I wear sometimes when you're not in" as me pointing to myself and yelling "ME NO MANDUDE ME GIRLPERSON" which is hardly accurate (the term is "girlchick", sheesh mum).

On the other hand... I kind of want to clear the air as it were, just so that I can undercut any assumptions and awkward "OH HEY I WAS CLEANING YOUR ROOM EARLIER" conversations that TV has led me to believe happen LITERALLY EVERY TIME someone's keeping a secret from their parents.

So assuming any of that was at least a tiny bit coherent, does anyone have advices or any stories of similar experiences?

Yeah, I've been/am in a similar situation. I thought I was gay for several years, and didn't realize until fairly recently (in the scheme of things) that it was even a possibility that I could be transgendered or genderqueer.

While I now have figured out that I identify as a mostly-female (or maybe as mystique), and thus label myself transsexual for ease of communication, I think my parents still think I'm genderqueer, especially as I'm still in the sort of androgynous stage of transition...

So, I'm not so good on the advice front, but I can relate!

[Gardener]

Yeah, I've been/am in a similar situation. I thought I was gay for several years, and didn't realize until fairly recently (in the scheme of things) that it was even a possibility that I could be transgendered or genderqueer.

While I now have figured out that I identify as a mostly-female (or maybe as mystique), and thus label myself transsexual for ease of communication, I think my parents still think I'm genderqueer, especially as I'm still in the sort of androgynous stage of transition...

So, I'm not so good on the advice front, but I can relate!

I think I identify with Mystique more than I identify as Mystique. She's an awesome character.

Or am I missing something?

[Nix Nihila]

I think I identify with Mystique more than I identify as Mystique. She's an awesome character.

Or am I missing something?

I occasionally use Mystique among my nerdier acquaintances as an example to express my seemingly ever-changing gender identity. Plus she's awesome. And I wanna shapeshift. :[

[Lissou]

Well, Mystique does have a different ring to it than genderfluid. But I worry it's a bit less self-explanatory, especially around non-nerds :P

[Gardener]

I occasionally use Mystique among my nerdier acquaintances as an example to express my seemingly ever-changing gender identity. Plus she's awesome. And I wanna shapeshift. :[

She's definitely awesome, and I want the shapeshifting too. I just hadn't seen her used as a gender identity before and wanted to make sure I was making the right references.

Did you see X-Men: First Class? I just wanted to give her a hug and tell her she was beautiful...

Almost overshadowed the homoerotic implications of the Charles-Eric relationship.

[Nix Nihila]

I mostly just say it cuz I like Mystique. Although it does make it easier to get the point across to some people that if it were possible, I'd like to present as female about 80% of the time, male 10% of the time, and androgynous another 10% of the time.

Edit: @^ Yes, I did! I just wanted to snuggle her!

[turkishproverb]

She's definitely awesome, and I want the shapeshifting too. I just hadn't seen her used as a gender identity before and wanted to make sure I was making the right references.

Did you see X-Men: First Class? I just wanted to give her a hug and tell her she was beautiful...

Almost overshadowed the homoerotic implications of the Charles-Eric relationship.

It was fun. mind you, I'm still a fan of the "Mystique is Nightcrawler's Father" theory, so there's that...

[Lissou]

It was fun. mind you, I'm still a fan of the "Mystique is Nightcrawler's Father" theory, so there's that...

Theory? It's canon as far as I know. Azazel is the father.

EDIT: ooooh, you said father. Heh. I read it as mother :P Nevermind then.

[Coidzor]

Well, Mystique does have a different ring to it than genderfluid. But I worry it's a bit less self-explanatory, especially around non-nerds :P

Well, with nerds Mystique is just a rather... fetishized sex symbol, so I'm not sure if it's really a readily applicable thing to represent gender fluidity to just point to Mystique without having to give the whole expository spiel....

[turkishproverb]

Theory? It's canon as far as I know. Azazel is the father.

EDIT: ooooh, you said father. Heh. I read it as mother :P Nevermind then.

That story is steadily being forcibly pushed out of canon for the good of everyone.

The original intended Mystique related origin was deemed too squicky/controversial. Look it up.

[Lissou]

The original intended Mystique related origin was deemed too squicky/controversial. Look it up.

I did look it up, and here it is for anyone who is interested:

Veteran X-Men writer Chris Claremont had intended for the mutant terrorist Mystique and her lover Destiny to have been Nightcrawler's biological parents. Mystique, being a shapeshifter, would have taken the form of a man and impregnated Destiny. Marvel, however, felt the idea to be too controversial, and an alternative origin was developed.

It is interesting to know what the original plan was, but his origin as told in the comics is different and that's the canon as far as I know. But I totally understand supporting the original idea even if it was discarded.

Didn't Azazel exist (as a character) already? Because... considering how Nightcrawler turned out to be (basically a blue Azazel), I find it hard to believe the character concept wasn't done after they had switched origin stories. In which case the baby Mystique was to have with Destiny is a character who doesn't exist anymore, as Nightcrawler's current form and powers are different from what one could imagine they would have been.

This of course doesn't work if I'm mistaken and Azazel was retroactively introduced to be Nightcrawler's father, and his powers were based on Kurt's and not the other way around.

I guess one way to "fix" that is that the male form Raven took was Azazel's... but that seems a bit weird. Plus I have issues with the idea that shapeshifting allows her to actually change her genes and not just her appearance, giving her the ability to be a fertile male, and transmit someone else's genes than hers. I mean if a paternity test was done and Azazel showed up as the father because Mystique took his form, sucks to be him, you know?

[Gardener]

I guess one way to "fix" that is that the male form Raven took was Azazel's... but that seems a bit weird. Plus I have issues with the idea that shapeshifting allows her to actually change her genes and not just her appearance, giving her the ability to be a fertile male, and transmit someone else's genes than hers. I mean if a paternity test was done and Azazel showed up as the father because Mystique took his form, sucks to be him, you know?

Either that, or sucks to be in the paternity-testing business in a world with shapeshifting mutants.

[Lissou]

Well it also raises the issue of...
If she didn't bear the child,
didn't pass on her own genes,
didn't raise the child (and indeed abandoned him and tried to kill him, unless that was retconned too),

how is she the child's parent again? Does that child have anything to do with her at all? Is it because of the sex? So if I had sex with a woman while wearing a dildo covered with someone's semen, then never cared about the resulting child, it would make me the kid's parent? In virtue of what?

[turkishproverb]

Erm...Lissou, a few things

1: That story was **** terrible, and marvel's been downplaying it since.

2: Nightcrawler was a character LONG before azazel (marvel's version). Azazel's first appearance was in *&^%*&^%*&^%^ 2003. Nightcrawlers? 1975.

Mystique's? 1978

Heck, the guy who came up with the original origin LEFT MARVEL FOR A TIME in the Nineties.

3. MORBO: Mutation via X-GENE does not work that way! Children often end up with more and/or completely different mutations than their parents.

4. "Raven"'s natural form Is blue (and scaly depending upon the artist) much like Nightcrawlwer's, if you're worried about genetic appearance similarities.

5. You posted at best the "sunday school" version of what happened. There was a good story laid out. The lack of publication for the origional story was due to it being to "gay" for the homophobic EIC at the time. It was still treated as accurate to a degree by most writers until Chuck Austin wrote something that (like most of his run) made no sense i the context of the series.

Heck, Nightcrawler DE-AGES by around a DECADE according to that story, or rather he's somehow about a decade younger than he should be (He's claimed as 19 in it!)

Heck, we're talking about a story wherein even the AUTHOR admits mistakes were made, and he's a fairly big "my critics are worthless" type.
And that's without getting into his other horrible stories ("Holy War" for example...)

[Serpentine]

So... I just found out that Stephen Fry is openly gay. Does this mean I wasn't imagining subtext (both in universe and meta) between him and Hugh Laurie?

To echo someone else: You only just discovered this? The other day on an episode of QI, there was a question on homosexuality in Victorian times and their illustrative image was a prettied-up Fry.

I've also met some bisexuals who believed that everyone was really bisexual... implying that I, and all other straight men - and all lesbians - just hadn't met the right man... and the same for gay men, straight women and the right woman.

First of all, I don't think your second part leads from the first. For seconds, I don't entirely disagree with this argument, in that... Well, to go with my sexuality scale, anyone who isn't at the far extreme monosexual ends could be considered at least a little bit "bisexual", and I think the majority of people aren't right hard up against the ends.

[Lissou]

To echo someone else: You only just discovered this?

A few years ago, I witnessed a coworker learn about Elton John's sexual orientation. Everyone else was surprised that she didn't know yet. Her? She was horrified and vowed never to listen to his music again. Le sigh.

[Mono Vertigo]

Word to that. Brofist!

*brofists*

Hey, over here in Belgium, one pretty important political figure right now, Elio di Rupo, who's the head of the French-speaking socialist party, and is currently tasked with the very ungrateful job of negotiating with all other parties, is gay. What's more surprising, however, is that tidbit is massively ignored. Most people here know that, but don't care, and would only mind him as a potential Prime Minister because he's, well, socialist. I've never head any public comment on his sexuality. So many of our neighbours who are aware of our current political situation often miss that detail, because it's never judged relevant and therefore never talked about.
So that's a nice situation in my opinion. After all, we don't hammer how heterosexual whatever celebrity is, right?
We do mock him for wearing an absolutely ridiculous bright red bowtie, though.

[Gardener]

*brofists*

Hey, over here in Belgium, one pretty important political figure right now, Elio di Rupo, who's the head of the French-speaking socialist party, and is currently tasked with the very ungrateful job of negotiating with all other parties, is gay. What's more surprising, however, is that tidbit is massively ignored. Most people here know that, but don't care, and would only mind him as a potential Prime Minister because he's, well, socialist. I've never head any public comment on his sexuality. So many of our neighbours who are aware of our current political situation often miss that detail, because it's never judged relevant and therefore never talked about.
So that's a nice situation in my opinion. After all, we don't hammer how heterosexual whatever celebrity is, right?
We do mock him for wearing an absolutely ridiculous bright red bowtie, though.

Bob Brown, head of the Australian Greens, who have a balance of power in one house of Parliament and one of the five controlling votes maintaining the current government in the other, is gay. No-one cares about that - it's his environmental and social policies that cause a fuss from time to time, not his sexuality.

Hooray for no-one caring!

[Serpentine]

It's great, isn't it? They'll kick up a stink about the PM not being married, but the gay senator... Pfft, whatever.