Alignments of the stick

[The Pilgrim]

Ah Okay. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Nothing at all. I'll try to make better use of punctuation next time.

[zero]

Also, the dragons were evil, so YMMV about whether it's a good or an evil act to kill them.

Wait WHAT? That was the single evilest act ever depicted in OOtS!!

[Kish]

Also, the dragons were evil, so YMMV about whether it's a good or an evil act to kill them.

Manifestly, many people's mileage on whether the horrific Xykonish atrocity was actually a good deed does vary.

It doesn't matter; Rich Burlew isn't one of them.

[SowZ]

Wait WHAT? That was the single evilest act ever depicted in OOtS!!

With the exception, perhaps, of the entire World being devoured of all life-forms, including their souls...

[Craft (Cheese)]

When has Elan ever done anything Chaotic, other than his Chaotic Stupid tendencies that are played for laughs (I'm invisible!) ? The only serious, Chaotic thing I remember him doing is when he broke into that store in Cliffport to steal new clothes.

If it wasn't for his alignment restriction, I'd swear he was Lawful.

[lio45]

Okay, we have like 20,000 threads about each characters alignment. Why don't we all put them on one thread.

Why? Because it's already messy enough when each discussion has its own thread... :P

Also, the dragons were evil, so YMMV about whether it's a good or an evil act to kill them.

I can think murdering baby halflings is not an evil act if I want.

So what if all of them were Evil aligned? V did not know that they were necessarily murderers nor cared about their alignment.

[Kish]

When has Elan ever done anything Chaotic, other than his Chaotic Stupid tendencies that are played for laughs (I'm invisible!) ? The only serious, Chaotic thing I remember him doing is when he broke into that store in Cliffport to steal new clothes.

It appears that you're thinking of Chaotic as "law-breaking."

The only character in the comic who compares to Elan for spontaneity and randomness is Xykon.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Elan seemed pretty dead-set on dragging Kubota through the legal process instead of just dealing with him; V had to do that part for him. That's arguably more Lawful than anything Roy's ever done.

[Kish]

He was unwilling to kill someone who had surrendered. Not about the Lawful/Chaotic axis of alignment.

[SowZ]

Elan seemed pretty dead-set on dragging Kubota through the legal process instead of just dealing with him; V had to do that part for him. That's arguably more Lawful than anything Roy's ever done.

Also, Elan very much tries to be the traditional hero. Not being able to kill a villian who surrenders is a classic cause for frustration in adventure stories.

[Rhothaerill]

Didn't see an entry for Julia, Roy's sister. I believe she straight up mentioned that she was true neutral.

[SowZ]

Didn't see an entry for Julia, Roy's sister. I believe she straight up mentioned that she was true neutral.

I think it is mentioned or at least implied multiple times and explicitly states it at least once, yeah.

[Snails]

Pilgrim, V doing evil acts , whether under false impression or not, means that V was swimming in the NE side of the alignment pool. If it STAYED there or not is the question.

Sure, it is certainly possible that single monstrous act could cause an immediate and permanent shift. But we have ample evidence that V did not develop a taste for it.

V practically handed over his own life to help a dying paladin when he the means for an easy escape, and then spent what were likely to be his last breaths attempting the save the world.

In fact, even paladins are not required in D&D to act so bravely and so selflessly.

Obviously a Good act does not necessarily balance an Evil act. But the fact that V so quickly racked up Good karma so quickly strongly suggests that corruption did not find fertile ground.

[Snails]

Elan seemed pretty dead-set on dragging Kubota through the legal process instead of just dealing with him; V had to do that part for him. That's arguably more Lawful than anything Roy's ever done.

That is a possible interpretation.

But my interpretation is Elan is simply wrapped up in the idea that Good Guys never have unnecessary blood on their hands, even when it is justified, and the Bad Guys get to take advantage.

It is a classic dramatic convention. That is Elan's schtick.

It is an aspect of that same convention to overlook the sentient monsters that got chopped up in the dungeon (or guards that got blown to the next incarnation by a hail of accurate gunfire). The convention being stretched to the point it is not necessarily justified by actual logic or even the law is also part of the dramatic convention.

[FujinAkari]

When has Elan ever done anything Chaotic, other than his Chaotic Stupid tendencies that are played for laughs (I'm invisible!) ? The only serious, Chaotic thing I remember him doing is when he broke into that store in Cliffport to steal new clothes.

If it wasn't for his alignment restriction, I'd swear he was Lawful.

What about where Elan explicitly says he's Chaotic in the 'Oh buddy Roy' song?

As Kish said, Chaotic doesn't mean 'doesn't respect laws' Chaotic means 'inconsistant.'

When has Elan ever been predictable in his approach to problems?

[Burner28]

And as Elan has been confirmed to be CG, can we talk about characters who haven't been guiven an alignment by Rich Burlew?

[jidasfire]

I am not sure about Nale´s claims about his "Lawful " alignment... He seems pretty Chaotic in his behaviour.
Of course it may be the same case as with Roy, according with the Daeva: "You never stop working to improve it.... That´s what´s is important to us"

I always wondered about this as well. Obviously now that we've met Tarquin, it's clear as to why Nale holds to LE principles. Tarquin, however, is a very clear case of LE. He believes in absolute order without mercy, he doesn't lie, though he twists the truth constantly, he is loyal to those who are loyal to him and ruthless to anyone who crosses him. Nale never quite felt LE to me; I would have assumed him to be NE if it weren't explicitly stated in the comic, but given what we now know about Tarquin, it makes a little more sense. Nale is basically Tarquin's mentally unhinged, screwup son.

Much like his father, he believes in holding power and ruling the world, but he's more concerned with everyone knowing he's in charge than with actual power. Nale is also a halfway decent leader, keeping a fairly tight hold on the various iterations of the Linear Guild. Not that a leader must be lawful exactly, but unlike Xykon, whose leadership style is "Do whatever I say right now and maybe I won't murder you," Nale seems to follow a pretty standard command structure. He's the boss, Sabine's his advisor/lieutenant, Thog is the chief enforcer, and everyone else is on contract. He seems to treat his minions, if not well, at least fairly within the confines of whatever deal he makes with them. The problem is, he uses his leadership skills solely for the purpose of destroying Elan, rather than grabbing any real power.

So I suppose Nale fits LE better than anything else, though he is far from a paragon of it. He is much more evil than lawful, and his father would probably see him as one of those cliche scenery-chewing villains, but it's clear that Nale is working within his framework to follow his father's example, even if he doesn't do it perfectly.

[Logalmier]

Eugene seems TN to me. And I think that Miko turned TN after the fall, as she showed complete disregard for the law when killing Shojo, and killing Shojo was also an evil act.

Also, I think V is TN as well. When has V ever shown any regard for the law? At all? V would rather lie to the paladin then take responsibility for his/her actions.

[SowZ]

Eugene seems TN to me. And I think that Miko turned TN after the fall, as she showed complete disregard for the law when killing Shojo, and killing Shojo was also an evil act.

Also, I think V is TN as well. When has V ever shown any regard for the law? At all? V would rather lie to the paladin then take responsibility for his/her actions.

Lawful is not necessarily regard for the law, (strangely enough,) even though it usually is. You can ignore the law and be lawful and respect the law and be chaotic. It is more about values.

[Dark Matter]

Haley... Stabbing someone over and over, knowing they are going to be rezzed, just to satisfy a childhood rivalry is definitely torture.

She stabbed her to kill her, and thus break the whole "personal nemesis" level-lock thing. If she hadn't then the two of them would still be level-locked, and Crystal would still be destined to kill or be killed by Haley.

With D&D's rules on hitpoints, Haley didn't have Crystal helpless so there was no "quick and painless" option available.

[Chronos]

Therkla (pre-Elan) was definitely Lawful Evil-- Kubota even praises her for her mastery of LE philosophy. I think that there's a good case to be made that Elan inspired an alignment shift in her towards more good and/or chaos (my guess would be to LN), but that's more conjectural.

Miko, of course, will always be a bone of contention, but I agree with the assessment of LG -> LN.

Sabine I think is Lawful, not Chaotic, despite being a demon. But that's based mostly on a subjective impression.

Tsukiko I also see as Lawful, though there's not as much material to work with there, so I won't argue too hard with NE.

The Monster in the Dark is explicitly described by O-Chul as being good, and I'm not arguing with O-Chul.

And some of these, there's not really enough material to judge what their ethical axis is, but since I can't offer any better guesses, I won't dispute those.

[Snails]

Nale can say he is LE, and it is the kind of thing that characters do not usually bother to outright lie about to Good persons in the OotSverse.

But can anyone name a specific choice Nale ever made that demonstrated he is probably not Chaotic?

He alleged Lawfulness was only obviously used as a lame cover story as to why he is betraying his own brother. Really, that has the whiff of an outright lie -- he has clearly loved the idea of being the guy who screws over Elan from the moment they first met, and getting paid for it was merely icing on the cake.

Nale could be LE or NE or CE and still have it in for his father.

[Umberhulk]

This is all completely ridiculous. That being said, I shall add my 2 cents.

Roy: has called himself LG. While he consistently demonstrated his goodness, I cannot recall any lawful-defining moments.

Nale: is supposedly LE to be the opposite of Elan or what? He's a sociopath, and clearly CE.

Red Eye: shows no obviously alignment leanings aside from caring more for his family than the plan, and I can't agree with CG.

Hilgya: plays the part of chaotic, but aside from trying to poison one specific person didn't demonstrate evil traits. I don't think she would poison just anyone. I say CN.

[Kish]

Nale: is supposedly LE to be the opposite of Elan or what? He's a sociopath, and clearly CE.

He's one of the least spontaneous characters in the comic. He makes ridiculously complicated plans and sticks to them through hell and high water. He fixates on a single concept (revenge on Elan) and dedicates himself to it for years on end.

"He's a sociopath" would be a good counterargument were someone to propose that the Evil axis of Nale's alignment is in dispute.

Hilgya: plays the part of chaotic, but aside from trying to one specific person didn't demonstrate evil traits. I don't think she would poison just anyone. I say CN.

I wonder how many people she'd have to poison for you to consider her evil. I think most people would consider most murderers to be evil.

[jidasfire]

This is all completely ridiculous. That being said, I shall add my 2 cents.

Roy: has called himself LG. While he consistently demonstrated his goodness, I cannot recall any lawful-defining moments.

Nale: is supposedly LE to be the opposite of Elan or what? He's a sociopath, and clearly CE.

Red Eye: shows no obviously alignment leanings aside from caring more for his family than the plan, and I can't agree with CG.

Hilgya: plays the part of chaotic, but aside from trying to poison one specific person didn't demonstrate evil traits. I don't think she would poison just anyone. I say CN.

Roy: Well, the comic itself has pointed out that Roy is hardly a perfect example of a lawful character, and his own Deva even says he could be reasonably classified as NG. I won't break out the "he's trying" thing, because honestly I don't think that's quite enough. Miko tried to be LG too. I think Roy fits LG because he demonstrates a strong sense of fairness, loyalty, and duty, even when he doesn't want to. He's not perfect about playing by the rules, but again, the comic acknowledges this.

Nale: Like I said above, Nale is a crazy, only partially-competent version of LE.

Right-Eye: Right-Eye probably started off as CN, as he was always impulsive and lived in the moment, to complement Redcloak, who was probably LN at the time. In his old age, it seems likely to me that he mellowed to TN.

Hilgya: I agree with you on this one. Attempting to kill her husband may not be anywhere resembling good, but trying to kill a dwarf with poison is like trying to kill a human with a rubber mallet. It's basically the equivalent of telling them to go away. Beyond that, we see no evidence that she's evil, especially given her distaste for Nale.

[Snails]

He's one of the least spontaneous characters in the comic. He makes ridiculously complicated plans and sticks to them through hell and high water. He fixates on a single concept (revenge on Elan) and dedicates himself to it for years on end.

The mother of Nale/Elan also makes insanely complicated plans, and it is generally presumed she is CG, just like Elan.

While lack of spontaneity is a factor, Tarquin has a flair for both spontaneous and well-planned horrors. Tarquin needs very little cause, save his atrocities fit reasonably within the vast framework of his horrifying worldview.

I would also note that the details of Nale's seduction of Haley were all on the spur of the moment. Granted, it fit within the framework of his existing plan quite easily.

Nale is indeed obsessive about Elan. But obsessiveness is not necessarily a sign of any meaningful kind of conviction. CE villains can be obsessed to the point of stupidity, as well.

I would also say that Nale's obsessiveness over Elan is very short-sighted. Elan easily could have been (or perhaps could still) turned into a useful ally against their father, as Elan and Tarquin are naturally opposed.

[Snails]

Nale: Like I said above, Nale is a crazy, only partially-competent version of LE.

Put that way, he sounds more NE. Or perhaps even CE.

As written, Therkla has reasonable options other than poisoning; she just found them a little inconvenient. And she had plenty of time to consider her choices and future implications. Evil.

[Zerg Cookie]

I see a lot of people are pissed off over my "YMMV about it being evil" comment.
Look, I find that evil too, but I don't make the rules. If Miko can slay evil beings for showing on her evil radar and still maintain a Lawful Good alignment (Please, no Miko's alignment pre-fall discussion. There's nothing to discuss, she's a 3.5 paladin. Lawful Good), it might not count as evil to kill that many evil beings. It might even count as good.

So no, I don't really think that, I was just pointing out a possible interpretation of the alignment system.
To be honest, in my D&D group, we barely have alignments at all. "It fits my character and my actions so far, do I really have to throw a dart at a 3x3 table?"

[SowZ]

I see a lot of people are pissed off over my "YMMV about it being evil" comment.
Look, I find that evil too, but I don't make the rules. If Miko can slay evil beings for showing on her evil radar and still maintain a Lawful Good alignment (Please, no Miko's alignment pre-fall discussion. There's nothing to discuss, she's a 3.5 paladin. Lawful Good), it might not count as evil to kill that many evil beings. It might even count as good.

So no, I don't really think that, I was just pointing out a possible interpretation of the alignment system.
To be honest, in my D&D group, we barely have alignments at all. "It fits my character and my actions so far, do I really have to throw a dart at a 3x3 table?"

Miko killed evil creatures after they commited a crime AND she did it because she was actually doing it with goodness in mind AND she didn't enjoy mercilessly slaughering what she thought might be good aligned and knew for pretty sure were neutral creatures AND she was fulfilling what she thought was right, not getting off on genocide with entirely selfish reasons. The two are about as comparable as a cop shooting a man running down the street with a gun and a psycopath stabbing all people he knows who owns a gun to get vengeance because his mom was killed by a gun.

[Burner28]

Put that way, he sounds more NE. Or perhaps even CE.

How does being crazy and only partially competent mean that you can't be Lawful?