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2011-08-10, 01:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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[3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
So the thought here was to combine a number of alternate class features for the Fighter from various sources and just apply them directly to the base Fighter, rather than replacing anything. It's a mix of Dungeonscape, PHBII, Pathfinder, the Wizards of the Coast website, and, well, I couldn't help but put in a few of my own ideas as well, as well as implement some suggestions from below.
Incidentally, on that note, I remember a Wizards of the Coast article that focused on giving each class a capstone ability...can't find it though. Anyone remember the article?
The result should be a strong Tier 4 Fighter, maybe even edging into low Tier 3 now that it has a decent skill spread (though that's probably just a pipe dream of mine).
A note on the Reflex Save: A concept borrowed from the Star Wars Revised Core Rulebook. I like the idea of a "medium" save.
Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats: At 1st, 2nd, 4th, and every 2 levels thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat, which can be any feat marked as a Fighter Bonus Feat. A fighter must still meet all prerequisites for a feat, including ability score and base attack bonus minimums.
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear effects. This bonus increases by +1 for every four fighter levels the fighter possesses.
Dungeon Crasher (Ex): You excel at overwhelming traps, smashing through doors, and pushing aside your enemies. At 3rd level, you gain a +2 competence bonus on saves and to your Armor Class when attacked by traps. You also gain a +5 bonus on Strength checks to break a door, wall, or similar obstacle.
In addition, you gain a special benefit when making a bull rush. If you force an opponent to move into a wall or other solid object, he stops as normal. However, your momentum crushes him against it, dealing an amount of bludgeoning damage equal to 4d6 points + twice your Strength bonus (if any).
Physical Prowess (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gets a bonus to some aspect of his ability checks that makes him a better warrior. The fighter gains an additional bonus at 5th level and every two fighter levels thereafter (7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, 17th, and 19th). The bonus must be drawn from the following list.
Applied Force (Ex): A fighter can administer force to the weakest points of inanimate objects effectively, giving the character a +1 bonus on Strength checks to break or burst items.
Combat Bearing (Ex): A fighter can steady himself to fight in precarious situations, giving the character a +1 bonus on Dexterity checks to avoid falling when damaged while balancing or moving quickly across difficult surfaces.
Stamina Reserve (Ex): A fighter can push his body more than normal, giving the character a +1 bonus on Constitution checks to continue running and to avoid nonlethal damage from a forced march.
Retraining: Beginning at 4th level, whenever a fighter gains a bonus feat, they may choose to swap out one of their previous bonus feats and take a new one as well as get their new bonus feat. So, for example, at 4th level, a fighter that took Weapon Focus (longswords) at 2nd level can ‘retrain’ and take Dodge instead. He must still meet any prerequisites for the feat he is retraining in.
A fighter cannot choose to retrain a feat that is a prerequisite for a feat, prestige class, or other ability that they possess.
Elusive Attack (Ex): At 5th level, you master a technique of combining offense and defense. As a full-round action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. Until the start of your next turn, attacks against you have a 20% miss chance. This miss chance improves to 40% at 11th level and to 60% at 17th level.
Grit (Ex): Beginning at 5th level, a fighter can resist magical and unusual attacks with great willpower or fortitude. If he makes a successful Fortitude save against an attack that normally would have a lesser effect on a successful save (such as any spell with a saving throw entry of Fortitude partial), he instead completely negates the effect. An unconscious or sleeping fighter does not gain the benefit of mettle.
Improved Dungeon Crasher (Ex): At 7th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps from your Dungeon Crasher ability increase to +4, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +10. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 8d6 points + three times your Strength bonus.
Tough Defense (Ex): Beginning at 8th level, the fighter is able to use sheer physical toughness and pigheadedness to overcome many challenges. A number of times per day equal to half his or her fighter level, the fighter can choose to make a Fortitude save in the place of a Reflex save.
Beginning at 12th level, the fighter gains the additional ability to make Fortitude saves in the place of Will saves. Either usage of Tough Defense is still drawn from the same limit of one-half the fighter’s total level.
The usage of Tough Defense works with the fighter abilities Grit and Greater Grit, as applicable.
Counterattack (Ex): At 9th level, you learn to hold back some of your offensive prowess to enable a potent counterattack. As a standard action, make one melee attack at your highest base attack bonus. At any time before the start of your next turn, you can use an immediate action to make a melee attack (using your highest base attack bonus) against an enemy that attacks you in melee.
Greater Grit (Ex): At 13th level, you gain Greater Grit. This functions like Grit, except that even on a failed saving throw the character takes only half the effect of the attack or spells (such as half damage)
Overpowering Attack (Ex): At 15th level, you can focus your attention in combat to deliver a single deadly attack. As a standard action, make one attack at your highest base attack bonus. That attack deals double damage, as do any other attacks you make before the start of your next turn. The double damage from making an Overpowering Attack is multiplied before any critical multipliers are performed.
Master Dungeon Crasher (Ex): At 16th level, the bonuses when dealing with traps from your Dungeon Crasher ability increase to +8, and the bonus on Strength checks to break objects increases to +20. The damage you deal when bull rushing an opponent into a wall increases to 12d6 points + four times your Strength bonus.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (×2 becomes ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.
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2011-08-10, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
It's probably a reasonable Tier 4, yes.
Originally Posted by KKL
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2011-08-10, 01:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
I know weapon mastery is gained at 20th level... but it doesn't get ToB maneuvers... it seems alright. Go go scythe master?
Is there anything beyond Improved Dungeon Crasher? What about a superior dungeon crasher at 16th or so?
Physical prowess seems...to not quite work. It seems like too small a bonus to get periodically, but not interesting or varied enough to show up 9 times.
Elusive Attack is way cool. Combine with Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit (PH 2 pg 82) for sheer awesomeness.
Does Overpowering Attack stack with criticals? You might want to add those rules in for clarification (I assume it does), because multipliers in D&D are wonky in that (Z x2)x2 --> Zx3. Restrictive math is confusing. Anyways, you might want to clarify there.
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2011-08-10, 01:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Quick off the cuff observations:
-I'd make elusive attack a miss chance rather than an AC bonus. It's cool in concept, but the bonus to AC doesn't make a huge difference, especially at the cost of a full attack. Make the miss chance 10%x the AC bonus you have currently (so start at 20%, end at 60%)
-Tough defense I'd cut down the uses to 1/4th fighter level, but let it be encounter based. Makes them more useful out of combat (combine with dungeoncrasher and you have a guy who just bullrushes his way through traps), and makes people less leery of using it in combat waiting to save it for that save or die 2 encounters down the road.
-Counter Attack is once again too little benefit for giving up a full attack. Remember, you're forcing the fighter to stand in one place for a full round making only a single attack.If you want the effects to be as weak as they are, you should make them a standard action. But as a full round action, I'd change it from being an immediate action (of which the fighter gets only one per round, so you're trading a full round of attacks for a single counter attack) to a free action, or attack of opportunity. Attack of Opportunity is more standard, but there's actually already 2 feats that do basically this without costing you a full round action.
So I would suggest actually making this an upgrade from Elusive Attack. Elusive Attack starts as it is now, but with a miss chance instead of a AC bonus as suggested above. Then at level 9 you get Counter Attack, which gives you a free action attack against anyone who misses due to the miss chance from Elusive Attack.
-Overpowering Attack is again not worth giving up a full round attack for. Just make this one a standard action and it's halfway decent, but basically a feat from pathfinder available 10 levels earlier and considered mediocre at best. As a full round action it's useless.If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-08-10, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
I dunno, I grabbed it from Pathfinder.
Is there anything beyond Improved Dungeon Crasher? What about a superior dungeon crasher at 16th or so?
Nevertheless, Dungeon Crasher as an ability bumps the regular Fighter up to Tier 4 all by itself, and there is no "Greater" version of it that I'm aware of.
Do you think I should try my hand at making one?
Physical prowess seems...to not quite work. It seems like too small a bonus to get periodically, but not interesting or varied enough to show up 9 times.
I view it as a fluffy ability that will come into play every now and then, but is really just there for the sake of adding to the "feel" of the class. Like the druid's Nature Sense and Timeless Body, or the Monk's...um...well, the Monk's class features.
Elusive Attack is way cool. Combine with Combat Reflexes and Robilar's Gambit (PH 2 pg 82) for sheer awesomeness.
Does Overpowering Attack stack with criticals? You might want to add those rules in for clarification (I assume it does), because multipliers in D&D are wonky in that (Z x2)x2 --> Zx3. Restrictive math is confusing. Anyways, you might want to clarify there.
Will do.
-Tough defense I'd cut down the uses to 1/4th fighter level, but let it be encounter based. Makes them more useful out of combat (combine with dungeoncrasher and you have a guy who just bullrushes his way through traps), and makes people less leery of using it in combat waiting to save it for that save or die 2 encounters down the road.
Certainly, if I ran this Fighter class, though, I'd make a bonus feat that gave you additional uses of Tough Defense per day.
-Counter Attack is once again too little benefit for giving up a full attack. Remember, you're forcing the fighter to stand in one place for a full round making only a single attack. If you want the effects to be as weak as they are, you should make them a standard action. But as a full round action, I'd change it from being an immediate action (of which the fighter gets only one per round, so you're trading a full round of attacks for a single counter attack) to a free action, or attack of opportunity. Attack of Opportunity is more standard, but there's actually already 2 feats that do basically this without costing you a full round action.
-Overpowering Attack is again not worth giving up a full round attack for. Just make this one a standard action and it's halfway decent, but basically a feat from pathfinder available 10 levels earlier and considered mediocre at best. As a full round action it's useless.
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2011-08-10, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
You're stuck on 3.0 feats. Ambidexterity doesn't exist. Expertise got renamed. And I hope the feats outside core are still available.
This class doesn't seem like it fits all the fighter concepts. Why does the two weapon fighter with a dexterity of 16+ have Dungeoncrasher? I also think saves should be "two good, one bad" or "one good, one medium, one bad" and it shows medium save progression. Yeah, I know that's how the generic classes deal with saving throws, but the fighter *is* the generic class that should fit any and all warrior concepts. Dungeoncrasher should still be an ACF that replaces the 2nd and 6th level bonus feats.
Also, I think you should add balance, knowledge (history), and tumble to the fighters class skills.
It should also get a way of overcoming DR. My idea is that at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a fighter chooses one alignment that isn't opposed to his or one special material. All weapons and natural weapons the fighter uses are considered that alignment or material. If you choose adamantine, you also overcome hardness of less than 20.Avatar of George the Dragon Slayer, from the upcoming Indivisible!
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2011-08-10, 02:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Buwh? I didn't even notice...I thought I copy/pasted this from the SRD...
Anyway, yes, any feat in 3.5 that is named as a fighter bonus feat (regardless of Core or not) is still available as a bonus feat.
Imma just...remove that list now.
Though on a related note, I'll always miss ambidexterity. I liked being able to have a hand crossbow in one hand and a rapier in the other and attack with either at no penalty.
This class doesn't seem like it fits all the fighter concepts.
Why does the two weapon fighter with a dexterity of 16+ have Dungeoncrasher?
I also think saves should be "two good, one bad" or "one good, one medium, one bad" and it shows medium save progression. Yeah, I know that's how the generic classes deal with saving throws, but the fighter *is* the generic class that should fit any and all warrior concepts. Dungeoncrasher should still be an ACF that replaces the 2nd and 6th level bonus feats.
Also, I think you should add balance, knowledge (history), and tumble to the fighters class skills.
It should also get a way of overcoming DR. My idea is that at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a fighter chooses one alignment that isn't opposed to his or one special material. All weapons and natural weapons the fighter uses are considered that alignment or material. If you choose adamantine, you also overcome hardness of less than 20.
I think I might use this as a basis to create something similar. Fighters should be able to sunder walls, not just weapons. I'll have to review the hardness rules first, though.
Certainly, as well, I think rather than allowing a fighter to get a limited ability to overcome some DR, they'll just get a flat "anti-DR ability" that lets them overcome all damage reduction.
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2011-08-10, 02:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Mettle and Improved Mettle apply to will saves as well. Look it up on the hexblade or crusader.
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2011-08-10, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Meh, I was going by the Sohei.
Hmm...synonyms for Mettle that I like include (but are not limited to): ardor, dauntlessness, grit, guts, indomitability, moxie, pluck, resolution, resolve, and vigor.
So what should Mettle be renamed? Hmm...ardor, grit, and vigor are winning for me right now.
(I don't want to use the Hex/Crusader version of Mettle for two reasons; one, to keep those classes distinct; and two, because Tough Defense becomes less useful if the Fighter gets an Evasion-like ability that can be applied to both Fortitude and Will aready)
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2011-08-10, 06:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
I went with the name "grit" instead of mettle. Which upgrades to Greater Grit. I also added in a Master Dungeon Crasher ability at 16th level because, well, it probably should upgrade again. Though it's crazy good - but on the other hand, if you get that, you're playing a 16th-level Fighter. You should be crazy good at dungeon crashing.
Now, here's the real question.
Without using Tome of Battle, what further additions or changes could be made to this class to make it Tier 3?
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2011-08-10, 08:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Hmm, I'd say it needs some real use for Swift and Immediate actions, and a way to either do relevant damage with a standard action or a way to move and full attack.
Also, Dungeoncrasher's base damage scaling is a bit wonky. Also, it would be neat to have something similar for other combat maneuvers. Maybe at least something that prevents you from provoking every time you use one.Quotes:Praise for avatar may be directed to Derjuin.Spoiler
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2011-08-10, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Hmm. I'm feeling those would be feat options. I'll get to work on those next.
Also, Dungeoncrasher's base damage scaling is a bit wonky. Also, it would be neat to have something similar for other combat maneuvers. Maybe at least something that prevents you from provoking every time you use one.
How do you think the damage should scale?
Not provoking an attack of opportunity with the bull rush from dungeon crasher, again, seems like something that would be dealt with via a feat.
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2011-08-10, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-08-10, 11:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-11, 12:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
YES
So, just to clarify, what you are going to say is that it multiplies all damage results from a normal attack by 2, including critical hits? And now for a standard action at level 20? That sounds fair, considering crusaders can fully heal an ally with a single attack at around level 17.
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2011-08-11, 12:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
If my text is blue, I'm being sarcastic.But you already knew that, right?
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2011-08-11, 12:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
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2011-08-11, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Homebrew
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SpoilerSpecial Thanks: Kymme! You and your awesome avatarist skills have made me a Lore Warden in addition to King of Fighter Fixes!
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2011-08-11, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
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2011-08-11, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-08-11, 11:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
The flaw with this reasoning is that any feats that are "good enough" will need to require Fighter class levels as pre-reqs if they're intended to fix Fighter, which makes them class features that are taking up the wrong slot. Additionally, you run into the problem where it doesn't make any sense for other martial-focused characters (rangers, rogues, barbarians, initiators, battle clerics) to not be able to take the feat.
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2011-08-11, 11:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Actually I was planning on tying the feat's prerequisites and effects into BAB for the most part.
(Or modifying Ziegander's so they do, if they don't already. Or whatever).
Though there will be some Fighter-specific feats, or more likely, feats that are better if you have levels in Fighter (+1 to [X], or +3 if you have [X] levels of Fighter).
Also, I retain the belief that the feats are the class feature of Fighter. They just weren't doing the job on their own; hence all the additions above.
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2011-08-11, 11:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
Divine Power. Tenser's Transformation. Sapient animal companions. Wild Cohort, Improved Familiars, Awaken Undead, Awaken Construct.....
There's a lot of ways to use a BAB pre-req feat for a lot less resources than actually including a fighter in the party. Not to mention that it'd also help initiators (thus still leaving Fighter in the dust), 3/4 BAB classes like Cleric, Druid, and Psychic Warrior (which are outclassing fighters already), et cetera, so forth.
Sorry my friend, but like I said above - there's no such thing as a feat-based fix. Everyone gets feats, and there's a lot of ways to access them - hell, phantom HD from spells/bardic music can turn anyone into a fighter for a brief time! Any feat-based fix is only going to maintain the power gap, not close it.
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2011-08-11, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [3.5] Fighter Mix Fix - a little Pathfinder, a little Dungeonscape...
There's a lot of ways to use a BAB pre-req feat for a lot less resources than actually including a fighter in the party. Not to mention that it'd also help initiators (thus still leaving Fighter in the dust), 3/4 BAB classes like Cleric, Druid, and Psychic Warrior (which are outclassing fighters already), et cetera, so forth.
Cleric has recieved a big overhaul in that they can only cast spells from their domains, vastly limiting their capabilities; druid spellcasting, meanwhile, has been changed to work like a bard, as well as getting an animal companion like a ranger and wild shaping taking a full minute to perform; lastly I'm grabbing wild shaping as Pathfinder works it, as I do believe that was a successful nerf.
Further, I'm hoping to make the Fighters win out over the 3/4ths classes by simple quantity of feats. Clerics get 7, 8 if their human. Fighters get 18, 19 if human. In the time it takes for Clerics to complete one feat chain, Fighters could finish two and start work on a third. If each feat chain is, say, four feats deep, then a Fighter could complete nearly five whereas other classes have to make do with two.
So the goal is a combination of,
- Weaker other classes
- Better feats
- Feats that are even better if you have levels in fighter
- Quantity of feats
Sorry my friend, but like I said above - there's no such thing as a feat-based fix. Everyone gets feats, and there's a lot of ways to access them - hell, phantom HD from spells/bardic music can turn anyone into a fighter for a brief time! Any feat-based fix is only going to maintain the power gap, not close it.