Logical solution to defeat Tarquin

[XxXU2XxX]

The only logical way for Tarquin to suffer a defeat is if Nale takes up the crown as he intended to do two years ago. I mean, he's so incompetent that his kingdom wouldn't last a week.

So think about it. One of Tarquin's sons defeats him, just as he intended (albeit not the ONE he intended), and takes up the throne. Then, Nale gets overthrown and people don't remember Tarquin as a legend, but just as incompetent as his son for 1. fathering such a moron and 2. being defeated by him.

The only way Tarquin could possibly emerge victorious through these means is if he remembered how good he lived up until that point. But everything afterwards would total defeat! Discuss.

[Occasional Sage]

The only way Tarquin could possibly emerge victorious through these means is if he remembered how good he lived up until that point. But everything afterwards would total defeat! Discuss.

But this has always been his win. For decades. Defeat by Elan and becoming a legend is frosting he put on the cake a few hours ago.

He started out thinking a peasant's pitchfork would be his death. Losing to the wrong son is small potatoes after that.

[NerfTW]

But what would stop him from simply starting the same routine over again elsewhere? He's already stated that they switch it up and topple one of the big 3 every few years to throw people off. Losing the Empire of Blood would simply mean he and Malak start the same plan with a new kingdom, just like always. It's not like being randomly overthrown isn't a very major possibility they'd all be planning for. That's the entire point of the patsy, so Tarquin and Malak can simply move on to another ruler.

And if Nale tells everyone the plan, then Tarquin gets his wish. Instant legend for having done if for 20 years.

[martianmister]

Logical solution to defeat Tarquin is just defeat him without caring about his winning/losing rules.

[Incom]

The logical solution to defeat Tarquin... isn't. He's already won having ruled behind the scenes for a long time now, which was his basic goal. It's just a matter of seeing if he can pull off other objectives, like unifying the continent or whatever. I'd link to Xanatos Gambit but tvtropes gets rather overused around here

If you really want to beat Tarquin, you have to change the rules somehow. IMO this takes the form of "Tarquin gets redeemed towards the end of the strip" but maybe there's stuff I'm not thinking about.

[NerfTW]

The other issue with defeating Tarquin is that you have to take out all six members of his group at the same time. This is Dungeons and Dragons we're talking about here. Haley even references the futility of simply killing a villain with a support network when dealing with the Linear Guild. (And again with Tarquin himself)

They likely have a communication network set up. On top of that, they also have the resources of three powerful kingdoms to draw upon. A resurrection or even true resurrection is a simple trip downstairs to the head cleric, and a wizard to cast teleport.

Sure, you can say "I defeated Tarquin by killing him", but he's going to be right back doing the same thing in a few weeks. That's the major issue. It isn't that people are worrying about his winning even if he loses, it's that he's set it up so he CAN'T lose.

If he's overthrown, he sells his services to a new patsy, as he's stated having done before.
If he's imprisoned, he'll be broken out by 4 other powerful characters.
If he's killed, someone will simply revive him, either with a true res, or by stealing the remains back.

You'd need 3 separate parties to take out all 3 groups at the same time to take any one of them down.

[Zevox]

Logical solution to defeat Tarquin is just defeat him without caring about his winning/losing rules.

This. As Tarquin explained to Elan, he already got what he wanted - everything from here is just icing on the cake to him. But unless your goal is to make him unhappy, make him "feel like he lost," or something along those lines, that's irrelevant. Taking out Tarquin should be done to end the tyrannical regimes he and his colleagues are perpetuating and improve the lot of the people of the area, not out of some personal vendetta against him specifically. From that perspective, Tarquin's thoughts on what he did and didn't "win" are irrelevant.

Zevox

[Dr.Epic]

...or you could just slit his throat in his sleep.

It's far more likely than Nale killing him...or anyone for that matter.

[SowZ]

...or you could just slit his throat in his sleep.

It's far more likely than Nale killing him...or anyone for that matter.

His arteries would be functioning again by suppertime.

[Morquard]

The problem with Tarquin's plan for a legacy is the same thing that's it's strength, the very thing that made it work till now:

Noone knows about it. (or only a very few do)

If he just vanishes, the EoB defeated, everyone just sees another empire topple. That's all. Noone will notice that the general didn't show up in anohter kingdom afterwards, because so far noone has noticed that he's doing that.

He'll be a footnote in history. The general that failed to defend one of the thousands of kingdoms that have come and gone on that continent.

[ArcaneSaint]

Hypothetically speaking, if you had the means and levels you could overthrow one duo, eg: Tarquin/Malack, and then use some clever illusions to take their place. Afterwards you can begin to slowly destroy everything Tarquin&co have worked for, so that when your Tarquin "dies" the people will remember him as an incompetent idiot who couldn't even manage a farm. You'd have a couple of years before the parties are shuffled, and by then the damage you have done should be irreversible (if not then you're not doing it right).

Bonus points for not killing true Tarquin and having him witness this all, then sending him out on the streets as a broken man, forced to life the rest of his life in slavery, abandoned by his own party.

Of course, the main driving weakness behind this plan is the illusion, which could only be pulled off by an Epic Illusionist who doesn't care too much for a Lawful person. Too bad we don't know someone like that eh?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

You'd need 3 separate parties to take out all 3 groups at the same time to take any one of them down.

No, you don’t need three parties. One sufficiently strong party and getting all the bad guys in the same room at once would suffice.

Heck, you don’t even need synchronicity. You just need to get the rest of the party before they can manage to raise the ones you killed first. If they can get access to greater teleport, they could even possibly get the last pair before they even knew anything was wrong.

Not that I count on the Order being savvy enough to manage that, but the point stands.

[Ulysses WkAmil]

If you were to defeat Tarquin, you would probly want to kill Malak in his sleep, keep his body (bag of holding), then take out Tarquin, keep his body, and so on with the rest of the party. Although you should probably do it quick so the rest of the party couldn't replace anyone...

[Stille_Nacht]

and how exactly do you get nale to defeat tarquin?

the arrogant-yet-slow one who cannot even combat the order of the stick beating the genius who has gained control of an entire continent?

not to mention that each member of tarquin's party is powerful enough to command a very high position of power in a land where nations get toppled through violence every year, and tarquin, being party leader, is probably the strongest of them all.

[Occasional Sage]

and how exactly do you get nale to defeat tarquin?

the arrogant-yet-slow one who cannot even combat the order of the stick beating the genius who has gained control of an entire continent?

not to mention that each member of tarquin's party is powerful enough to command a very high position of power in a land where nations get toppled through violence every year, and tarquin, being party leader, is probably the strongest of them all.

Just for the sake of argument, who said he was the party leader? He described Malack as an old adventuring buddy, which hardly makes him sound like the Big Boss. Sure this game of three-card monty is his idea, but that doesn't tell us anything really.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

He described Malack as an old adventuring buddy, which hardly makes him sound like the Big Boss.

What? The leader can’t be buddies or can’t have been buddies with underlings?

On the Origins of PCs

Spoiler

Show

Roy and Durkon were simply adventuring buddies before forming the Order of the Stick, but that doesn’t keep Roy from being the group leader. With Haley as Second in Command, even.

[kanachi]

Sure, you can say "I defeated Tarquin by killing him", but he's going to be right back doing the same thing in a few weeks. That's the major issue. It isn't that people are worrying about his winning even if he loses, it's that he's set it up so he CAN'T lose. .

This is why i believe Tarquin will somehow be:

A) Defeated by Xykon and turned into an undead minion
B) Somehow consumed by the Snarl

[Ulysses WkAmil]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html
7th panel. "I was the leader..."

[faustin]

If he's overthrown, he sells his services to a new patsy, as he's stated having done before.
If he's imprisoned, he'll be broken out by 4 other powerful characters.
If he's killed, someone will simply revive him, either with a true res, or by stealing the remains back.

If he is defeated or captured, and then thrown thorugh a Gate to the Snarl.... game over

[Ulysses WkAmil]

If he is defeated or captured, and then thrown thorugh a Gate to the Snarl.... game over

Not to be the technicality guy, but it would be pretty hard to sail across the sea, and walk right into Gobbotopia and say "Hey, I killed a couple hundred of your people, do you mind if i throw this body into the giant gaping hole over there and be on my way? Thanks."...

[faustin]

Not to be the technicality guy, but it would be pretty hard to sail across the sea, and walk right into Gobbotopia and say "Hey, I killed a couple hundred of your people, do you mind if i throw this body into the giant gaping hole over there and be on my way? Thanks."...

Girard´s Gate is there, in the dessert. The Order will eventually find out where, with or without Tarquin´s Help (Remember, Railroad Plot).

[Occasional Sage]

What? The leader can’t be buddies or can’t have been buddies with underlings?

On the Origins of PCs

Spoiler

Show

Roy and Durkon were simply adventuring buddies before forming the Order of the Stick, but that doesn’t keep Roy from being the group leader. With Haley as Second in Command, even.

Not that there can't be, I'm just saying the phrase doesn't suggest any kind of comparative status.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0758.html
7th panel. "I was the leader..."

That one does though.

[\A/_Sarlock_\A/]

The snarl cannot be accesed directly (im pretty sure) through the gate, so they would have to destroy it, which is a pretty lame reason to destroy something that protects existence.

[faustin]

The snarl cannot be accesed directly (im pretty sure) through the gate, so they would have to destroy it, which is a pretty lame reason to destroy something that protects existence.

Isn´t obvious that the Order and/or Team Evil most likely are going to
make a mess again and eventually blow this gate too, so we they have an excuse to travel to Durkon´s home?

[Silva Stormrage]

Isn´t obvious that the Order and/or Team Evil most likely are going to
make a mess again and eventually blow this gate too, so we they have an excuse to travel to Durkon´s home?

Ya its probably going to be blown sky high. That just isn't a very good reason to blow it up though .

[Ekul]

I believe Tarquin can be reasoned with. Seeing how reprehensible soul binding someone is I doubt they would try to snarl him. They're the GOOD guys, not the knight templars. Yeah, I know it's kinda idealistic, but that's what Elan, Haley, Durkon and Roy are all about. Heck, Roy refused to slit Belkar's throat. Elan refused to kill Nale. TWICE! One of those times, he even saved him from a karmic death. Roy has spared Nale three times.

Even if we say "He's too dangerous to leave alive, and there's no other option!" Yes, there are actually. There are numerous spells that leave someone alive and pacified. Like Baleful Polymorph. That's not even considering the non-arcane ways of incarceration or governmental collapse.

Oh, and my opinion on somebody other than the heroes doing it is, it seems unlikely. Possible, but it seems like at this point Elan and Ian consider it their responsibilities.

[kanachi]

I believe Tarquin can be reasoned with. Seeing how reprehensible soul binding someone is I doubt they would try to snarl him.

Who is to say that his being cast into the snarl would be the known result of whatever action the Order take (and that’s assuming that it will be the order who cause the inevitable destruction of this gate).

We don’t even know where the gate is! it could be anything, even something Tarquin interacts with unknowingly every day. In fact knowing that its hidden by epic illusions I would say that its probably something extremely mundane in visual appearance.

I think there is a high chance of Elan trying to save his father from said destruction and either:

A) Elan will look upon some immediate visual representation of his father’s evil and make the split second choice not to save him.

B) Fail to save him.

C) Be prevented from saving him.

OR

Tarquin will be defeated by team evil and be turned into some kind of mindless or otherwise imprisoned undead. Maybe Xykon will use introduce him to two old enemies he keeps with him at all times (see start of darkness).

[Ulysses WkAmil]

I believe Tarquin can be reasoned with. Seeing how reprehensible soul binding someone is I doubt they would try to snarl him. They're the GOOD guys, not the knight templars. Yeah, I know it's kinda idealistic, but that's what Elan, Haley, Durkon and Roy are all about. Heck, Roy refused to slit Belkar's throat. Elan refused to kill Nale. TWICE! One of those times, he even saved him from a karmic death. Roy has spared Nale three times.

Even if we say "He's too dangerous to leave alive, and there's no other option!" Yes, there are actually. There are numerous spells that leave someone alive and pacified. Like Baleful Polymorph. That's not even considering the non-arcane ways of incarceration or governmental collapse.

Oh, and my opinion on somebody other than the heroes doing it is, it seems unlikely. Possible, but it seems like at this point Elan and Ian consider it their responsibilities.

You probably are right, and keeping Tarquin alive could provide a bunch of sub-plots, but logic and good/evil are two different things. Under the circumstances that the Order does defeat Tarquin, Burlew will probably do something along the lines of what you're saying. Now logically, undoing his existence should probably work...

[Randel]

Well, if you really want to ¨defeat¨ a high level character with access to ressurection magic than nothing says it better than level drain. Xykon has a fondness for using Energy Drain in battle and the Linear Guild has a fiend who can drain levels with a kiss.

If Tarquin suffers permanent level loss before dying then he basically has his lifes work undone or at least can't just go back to ruling nations again. Somehow erasing his memories of his 'living like a god' similarly steals his victory.

Besides, even if somebody dies in the OOTS world then they still get an afterlife based on their alignment. If the goal is 'soul crushing defeat' instead of merely removing him from the mortal plane then find a way to get him a crummy afterlife for all eternity. He's already evil, so truly defeating him would require ensuring that he got a sucky afterlife of being tortured instead of the ones where he becomes a general of the dammed. Level drain him till he's a lvl 1 nobody, then start dissecting his memories and damage his stats [focus on intelligence and charisma] until he's too funtionally worthless for fiends to use in a soul splice. Then flesh to stone, shatter the statue, let a few eons of erosion eventually kill him enough that he goes to a sucky afterlife and laugh as he is reduced to dim witted lvl 1 amnesiac getting chewed on by imps until the end of time.

[Mutant Sheep]

Well, if you really want to ¨defeat¨ a high level character with access to ressurection magic than nothing says it better than level drain. Xykon has a fondness for using Energy Drain in battle and the Linear Guild has a fiend who can drain levels with a kiss.

If Tarquin suffers permanent level loss before dying then he basically has his lifes work undone or at least can't just go back to ruling nations again. Somehow erasing his memories of his 'living like a god' similarly steals his victory.

Besides, even if somebody dies in the OOTS world then they still get an afterlife based on their alignment. If the goal is 'soul crushing defeat' instead of merely removing him from the mortal plane then find a way to get him a crummy afterlife for all eternity. He's already evil, so truly defeating him would require ensuring that he got a sucky afterlife of being tortured instead of the ones where he becomes a general of the dammed. Level drain him till he's a lvl 1 nobody, then start dissecting his memories and damage his stats [focus on intelligence and charisma] until he's too funtionally worthless for fiends to use in a soul splice. Then flesh to stone, shatter the statue, let a few eons of erosion eventually kill him enough that he goes to a sucky afterlife and laugh as he is reduced to dim witted lvl 1 amnesiac getting chewed on by imps until the end of time.

That is mean. Very mean. Not very nice. Just stab Tarquin alot, stab his party members alot, they all die. Who cares what they think, they died. Cant hurt anyone anymore. Because they are dead.