Relationship Woes and Advice XX: One X Short of an Awesome Title

[Glass Mouse]

From word construction, "my lord" does denote a form of ownership, and indeed, as the peasants usually expected things in return from their lords (such as protection), often actually does mean a form of of possession.

If we can define ownership that broadly, wouldn't "my boy/girlfriend" just allude to the "affection for affection" nature of relationships? If possessive pronouns can be used for bargain relationships (which IMO defines every relationship ever), doesn't that kinda circumvent the problem? Or does it raise new problems by being too cynical?

Oh well. I respect your choice to be careful about wording. As someone who's mindful/anal about everything from "transpeople pronouns should be based on gender, not sex" to "it's Bob and I, not me and Bob!", I can understand


Edit: Please don't take the last paragraph as me comparing those two. I was deliberately looking for something very and self-evidently important, and something entirely superflous, to represent both ends of the scale. No disrespect intended to anyone (except grammar nazis, but that's okay because I'm "in").

[Frozen_Feet]

So, my social life has taken several steps from non-existent to puzzling. I've got acquianted with two girls and am now wondering what direction to go to.

Spoiler

Show

First is a childhood friend I recently got re-acquianted with, and have dated her a couple of times. Last time we met, we had a little chat of whether we're going anywhere, and she said she won't mind at all if I keep pursuing her, so for the moment I have a green light. I don't know how far we'll go yet, but part of me really wants to be with her. She's boyish and plain-looking, but she's great company and keeps triggering my romantic side - she's in a similar(ly sucky) position with her family, and I want to give her a reprieve from that and see her smile.

Second is a new friend I met this Halloween. When we met, she was engaged, though contemplating breaking up with him. Back then, I kissed her goodbye, and thought that the end of it unless she actually followed through, though we kept meeting as friends. Well, now she's done it. She (rather loudly) proclaimed to me she's single, and clearly finds my company pleasant. I'm obviously not the only one she's interested in (or who is interested in her); I've seen her flirt with a good deal of guys, and she has an old flame in her ex-fiancé's best friend (awkward, that). She's also a bit flawed, to put it mildly, in that she smokes and drinks waaaayyyy too much for her own health. (Last time, I had to haul her drunken ass out of snow twice, and when I let my eyes off her for a second, she glued herself to one less-interested males who had to drag her home [poor guy]. Later, she came to me asking what happened, since she barely remembers a thing of what happened after we got to the bar). There are two sides to my feelings towards her: for one, I'm very attracted physically towards her and would like to plow her like a prize field, like Reluctance's euphenism goes. Second, as a friend, I just want to help her somehow. Watch over her and possibly keep her in check - see what happened priorly to understand why. She's just had a kid, and I dread to think what kind of a mother she'll end up being if she continues on her current tracks.

My gut reaction is to just keep seeing both of them and see what happens. It's entirely possible Miss #1 will get cold feet, or that Miss #2 finds someone else; but I'd rather not have both dump or hate me because I have feelings for both. I don't want to lie to either of that important detail if/when it becomes topical to talk about it, but if I'm to be open, how to do that without breaking ties with two great persons?

[AtlanteanTroll]

The plowing! It's reached meme levels! *coughs* Maybe you should avoid seeing them alone, and try to hang out with them in a group of friends?

[Morph Bark]

So, my social life has taken several steps from non-existent to puzzling. I've got acquianted with two girls and am now wondering what direction to go to.

Spoiler

Show

First is a childhood friend I recently got re-acquianted with, and have dated her a couple of times. Last time we met, we had a little chat of whether we're going anywhere, and she said she won't mind at all if I keep pursuing her, so for the moment I have a green light. I don't know how far we'll go yet, but part of me really wants to be with her. She's boyish and plain-looking, but she's great company and keeps triggering my romantic side - she's in a similar(ly sucky) position with her family, and I want to give her a reprieve from that and see her smile.

Second is a new friend I met this Halloween. When we met, she was engaged, though contemplating breaking up with him. Back then, I kissed her goodbye, and thought that the end of it unless she actually followed through, though we kept meeting as friends. Well, now she's done it. She (rather loudly) proclaimed to me she's single, and clearly finds my company pleasant. I'm obviously not the only one she's interested in (or who is interested in her); I've seen her flirt with a good deal of guys, and she has an old flame in her ex-fiancé's best friend (awkward, that). She's also a bit flawed, to put it mildly, in that she smokes and drinks waaaayyyy too much for her own health. (Last time, I had to haul her drunken ass out of snow twice, and when I let my eyes off her for a second, she glued herself to one less-interested males who had to drag her home [poor guy]. Later, she came to me asking what happened, since she barely remembers a thing of what happened after we got to the bar). There are two sides to my feelings towards her: for one, I'm very attracted physically towards her and would like to plow her like a prize field, like Reluctance's euphenism goes. Second, as a friend, I just want to help her somehow. Watch over her and possibly keep her in check - see what happened priorly to understand why. She's just had a kid, and I dread to think what kind of a mother she'll end up being if she continues on her current tracks.

My gut reaction is to just keep seeing both of them and see what happens. It's entirely possible Miss #1 will get cold feet, or that Miss #2 finds someone else; but I'd rather not have both dump or hate me because I have feelings for both. I don't want to lie to either of that important detail if/when it becomes topical to talk about it, but if I'm to be open, how to do that without breaking ties with two great persons?

From what I read here, it seems the second one seems to moreso need a friend and some support than to dive into a relationship again. The way you talk about her seems also mostly to be protective/friendly, whilst the way you talk about the first girl is more as someone who is on equal grounds and something that could easily blossom if given the care.

I can't really say much about what they might think of it, but I don't think hanging in the middle for too long is a good idea. Plus, you don't have to break ties with either of them if you just stay friends with the other, though it can happen.

[Frozen_Feet]

@AT: To be fair, "plowing" is a fairly commonly used euphenism here. It's the "prize field" part that's new to me.

What do you mean by not seeing them alone? With Miss #2, I pretty much always meet her surrounded by her friends. With Miss #1, conflicting schedules have prevented that so far (we do share quite a few friends, with her being my bro's girlfriend's best friend), though I've invited her over to karate. The two don't share a circle of friends (outside of me, of course), so having them around at the same time would be bit of a hassle. What's the idea behind your suggestion?

[term1nally s1ck]

RE: Genitive case.

'My owner.'

'My missed opportunity'

Both things you do not and cannot own.

It isn't and cannot only be the possessive. It has more functions than that.

[AtlanteanTroll]

@AT: To be fair, "plowing" is a fairly commonly used euphenism here. It's the "prize field" part that's new to me.

Whatever it is, it's great.

What do you mean by not seeing them alone? With Miss #2, I pretty much always meet her surrounded by her friends. With Miss #1, conflicting schedules have prevented that so far (we do share quite a few friends, with her being my bro's girlfriend's best friend), though I've invited her over to karate. The two don't share a circle of friends (outside of me, of course), so having them around at the same time would be bit of a hassle. What's the idea behind your suggestion?

I dunno' ... When I first read your post I thought you were saying you were going to try and date them both at the same time. But I don't think that's what you meant anymore so it's sort of irrelevant.

[Reluctance]

Frozen_Feet: Girl 2 is the most obvious case, so I'll start with her. Proceed with extreme caution. This is the time to prod every square with your 10' pole, not your 10" one. She thrives on attention and drama. People like that are fireworks; pretty and exciting in the short term, but if you're not careful, you can blow your hand off. Have some fun if you can keep some emotional distance, but this sounds like a crazy ex story waiting to happen.

You won't "save" her and get the girl. I know the appeal of the fantasy. But trying to protect her from the consequences of her actions is the worst thing you can do for her. The longer a person can enjoy the fun of being drama-prone without having to face up to the downsides, the less reason they have to change.

Girl 1 you can date, but proceed with caution. If you have chemistry and compatibility, go ahead and date. Don't feel that you're shallow for wanting to be attracted to someone. But if she's a 6 whose smile makes her an 8, knock yourself out.

The big catch I'm seeing is that here again, you want to save her. Not quite as extreme as Damsel in Distress, but still about being the knight in shining armor. Giving her a safe space is about being a friend. It's kinda incompatible with being a full-time romantic goob. There's nothing wrong with being her friend with flirtation privileges and some other benefits here. Just a reminder to check your own urges to rush out and buy a white charger.

[Heliomance]

And yeah, I've said before that the "natural progression" is by far my favourite form of relationship development. My last relationship started pretty much as described, except with more tickling. And it was confirmed with a "so does this mean you're mine, now?" "What sort of person do you think I am?!"

Oh, there was tickling involved. I left that part out ^_^

Oh well. I respect your choice to be careful about wording. As someone who's mindful/anal about everything from "transpeople pronouns should be based on gender, not sex" to "it's Bob and I, not me and Bob!", I can understand

Actually, that depends on context. "It belongs to Bob and I" is incorrect, for example. It should be "It belongs to Bob and me."

[Sholos]

Three, she leans into your hand. If this one happens, and you don't immediately cup her face and kiss her I will come to your house and play skrillex for 17 and a half MONTHS. On full volume.

This happened to me last night. Right up to the part I could have kissed her anyways. Too bad she's dating one guy (is planning on breaking up with him, just hasn't done it yet) and is quasi-dating another guy (the guy she's theoretically planning on moving to, as well as a friend of mine). I didn't kiss her. Even though it would have been really, really easy to. I have the worst luck...

[Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll]

This happened to me last night. Right up to the part I could have kissed her anyways. Too bad she's dating one guy (is planning on breaking up with him, just hasn't done it yet) and is quasi-dating another guy (the guy she's theoretically planning on moving to, as well as a friend of mine). I didn't kiss her. Even though it would have been really, really easy to. I have the worst luck...

Welp.
Rinse and Repeat.

[Ancano]

An opportunity to kiss a girl was dropped into your lap and you chose not to go through with it. How are you unlucky exactly?

[Glass Mouse]

Actually, that depends on context. "It belongs to Bob and I" is incorrect, for example. It should be "It belongs to Bob and me."

Oh, I know, but thanks for clarifying. If I didn't know, I definitely would've appreciated learning.

[Serpentine]

I think the idea that possession is intended to be romantic is a major warning sign to some people.

Put it this way: After ten minutes of unexpected but highly desired make-outs, it was the quickest, easiest and most readily-to-mind means of establishing the nature of our relationship. And, moreover, he at least certainly didn't take it to be me saying "you belong to me now! Mwahahahaha!", and he's the sort of guy (and I the sort of girl) who would notice that sort of thing

[DeadManSleeping]

On one hand, from a certain point of view, "my" does always indicate possession.

On the other hand, we seem to be mistaking possession with ownership.

I have a birthday. I possess a birthday. That day is my birthday. But I certainly don't own any days. I don't stake any claim to any day of the year and defend it to the death.
I have parents. I possess parents. Those two people are my parents. But I don't own a set of parents. I don't even own one!
I have a native language. I possess a native language. English is my native language. But I don't own a native language. I do not pretend to reserve the rights to the English language, or take any use of it as a violation of my rights (oh, there's another one).

See what I mean? So, yes, I have a girlfriend. I possess a girlfriend. She is my girlfriend. I'd even say she is mine. Doesn't mean I think I own her. Heck, it doesn't mean she can't be anyone else's girlfriend (similar to all my examples above), though I prefer an exclusive relationship at this point.

Genitives are funny things (giggity).

I'm not saying that there aren't people under the impression that they DO possess rights to a significant other, but I think avoiding reliable phrase constructions because of their faults is conceding too much.

[Coidzor]

An opportunity to kiss a girl was dropped into your lap and you chose not to go through with it. How are you unlucky exactly?

Could've been an eligible lady rather than dangerous goods.

Put it this way: After ten minutes of unexpected but highly desired make-outs, it was the quickest, easiest and most readily-to-mind means of establishing the nature of our relationship. And, moreover, he at least certainly didn't take it to be me saying "you belong to me now! Mwahahahaha!", and he's the sort of guy (and I the sort of girl) who would notice that sort of thing

Indeed. Because intent does matter, which is what seems to be getting forgotten here.

If someone asked me that, I'd probably never look that someone in the face again.
I don't belong to anyone. yuck.

Why would you be in the mood to deliberately misinterpret the words of the person you'd just seduced and been making out with and who had just sought clarification as to the nature of the liaison?

So, my social life has taken several steps from non-existent to puzzling. I've got acquianted with two girls and am now wondering what direction to go to.

Spoiler

Show

First is a childhood friend I recently got re-acquianted with, and have dated her a couple of times. Last time we met, we had a little chat of whether we're going anywhere, and she said she won't mind at all if I keep pursuing her, so for the moment I have a green light. I don't know how far we'll go yet, but part of me really wants to be with her. She's boyish and plain-looking, but she's great company and keeps triggering my romantic side - she's in a similar(ly sucky) position with her family, and I want to give her a reprieve from that and see her smile.

Second is a new friend I met this Halloween. When we met, she was engaged, though contemplating breaking up with him. Back then, I kissed her goodbye, and thought that the end of it unless she actually followed through, though we kept meeting as friends. Well, now she's done it. She (rather loudly) proclaimed to me she's single, and clearly finds my company pleasant. I'm obviously not the only one she's interested in (or who is interested in her); I've seen her flirt with a good deal of guys, and she has an old flame in her ex-fiancé's best friend (awkward, that). She's also a bit flawed, to put it mildly, in that she smokes and drinks waaaayyyy too much for her own health. (Last time, I had to haul her drunken ass out of snow twice, and when I let my eyes off her for a second, she glued herself to one less-interested males who had to drag her home [poor guy]. Later, she came to me asking what happened, since she barely remembers a thing of what happened after we got to the bar). There are two sides to my feelings towards her: for one, I'm very attracted physically towards her and would like to plow her like a prize field, like Reluctance's euphenism goes. Second, as a friend, I just want to help her somehow. Watch over her and possibly keep her in check - see what happened priorly to understand why. She's just had a kid, and I dread to think what kind of a mother she'll end up being if she continues on her current tracks.

My gut reaction is to just keep seeing both of them and see what happens. It's entirely possible Miss #1 will get cold feet, or that Miss #2 finds someone else; but I'd rather not have both dump or hate me because I have feelings for both. I don't want to lie to either of that important detail if/when it becomes topical to talk about it, but if I'm to be open, how to do that without breaking ties with two great persons?

You have any guarantee that she won't just continue her lifestyle if you do start dating her? Are you OK with the apparent plausibility of her getting drunk and sleeping around behind your back and not even being able to remember it because she won't or can't take care of herself?

Now, it might be my experiences with the girl I know who is sleeping with anything that moves behind her fiance's back talking here, but, uh... DANGER! DANGER!

Being the "White Knight" hasn't done anything but further my friend's latent misogyny and untreated depression and help result in the girl becoming more entitled and having an even more overinflated ego because she can afford to get even worse and even more infantile with him to clean up all of her mess after her.

It ain't going to do you any good, and you ain't going to fix her.

[Ancano]

Many people would die for an opportunity with those "dangerous goods"

[Coidzor]

Many people would die for an opportunity with those "dangerous goods"

Well, AIDS isn't quite the specter of terror that it once was, I suppose. It's not good for either party no matter how much they want to use one another physically though.

Not with women who derive their sense of self esteem from sex at any rate.

[AtlanteanTroll]

OK, so a while back I mentioned that there was a girl that I really liked. And I'm trying to sabotage my asking her out. Not on purpose, I just am.
One of the obstacles I've set up for myself is that I know she has her license and I don't.

Do you Playgrounders think this is a big deal, or am I just making a mountain out of a molehill?

[Serpentine]

Molehill -> Mountain. Hell, my Boy's older than I am and I'm closer to getting my licence than he is.
And if she's the sort of person to care, I personally wouldn't bother.

[Mando Knight]

OK, so a while back I mentioned that there was a girl that I really liked. And I'm trying to sabotage my asking her out. Not on purpose, I just am.
One of the obstacles I've set up for myself is that I know she has her license and I don't.

Molehill -> Mountain. Hell, my Boy's older than I am and I'm closer to getting my licence than he is.
And if she's the sort of person to care, I personally wouldn't bother.

Wait, what license? Driver's license?

[Rawhide]

If we can define ownership that broadly, wouldn't "my boy/girlfriend" just allude to the "affection for affection" nature of relationships? If possessive pronouns can be used for bargain relationships (which IMO defines every relationship ever), doesn't that kinda circumvent the problem? Or does it raise new problems by being too cynical?

Oh well. I respect your choice to be careful about wording. As someone who's mindful/anal about everything from "transpeople pronouns should be based on gender, not sex" to "it's Bob and I, not me and Bob!", I can understand


Edit: Please don't take the last paragraph as me comparing those two. I was deliberately looking for something very and self-evidently important, and something entirely superflous, to represent both ends of the scale. No disrespect intended to anyone (except grammar nazis, but that's okay because I'm "in").

Not so sure about that first one. But, ultimately, "my" is possessive. Language evolves though and, for lack of a better word to use, it is definitly used in situations where possession makes little or no sense and common usage dictates definitions. But, I still do my best to avoid it where possible due to the possessive connotation of the language behind it. It is a small token of respect and symbol of equality that I have elected to include in my speech pattern. I do not feel that the people who don't are being disrespectful, unless they do it after specifically being asked not to or actually feel that they do possess them, I just choose to do so because it is one small way of promoting the position of equality. So far, it has only been appreciated and has not offended anyone.

For the record, I will hold the door open for a woman. I will also hold the door open for a man, for a friend, for a complete stranger. It doesn't matter who is after me, man, woman, child, I will hold the door open for them if I can. This did get me into trouble once, with one woman who didn't know me being a little miffed that she wasn't helpless. I saved very easily by saying that no, she wasn't, but I that do this for everyone, man or woman.

[Serpentine]

Yes, driver's licence. As in "not only does my Boy have a car, but he doesn't even have a licence. It's not a big deal".

[Feytalist]

Wait, what license? Driver's license?

Gun owner's licence, I assume (hey, it's a thing ).

Seriously, it's no big deal. If it bothers you, just make sure you meet in places you can get on your own, so that the issue never comes up, or somesuch.

[Vacant]

On one hand, from a certain point of view, "my" does always indicate possession.

I believe it is defined to denote possession or association, the difference being that possession either denotes something one owns or something which belongs to one, while relation merely notes something that is related to one. In this sense, it's more related to the example of a "children's department" in a store; the children certainly do not own the department, nor is it exactly correct to say it belongs to them. It is, however, the "children's department" all the same, since the goods sold in that department are associated with children. Not that it really goes against the overall point, but just sayin'.

In other words, "my girlfriend" is not the girlfriend I possess, but a person who is a girlfriend and is associated with me. Or at least that's how I'd rather think of it, anyhow, hence my problem with using "mine," since that carries a an exclusively possessive valence insofar as I'm aware.

@FrozenFeet: Girl number two sounds like fun, give it a shot. I disagree with Coidzor both in the sense that promiscuity does not equate to deriving one's self-esteem from sex and that I don't see why that's a worse way to derive one's self-esteem than any other, besides. I mean, I guess deriving it from one thing alone is always bad, but I think that's also almost never the case.

@AtlanteanTroll: Definitely making a mountain out of a molehill. I still don't have my license and it's never seemed to matter much. Don't turn her into a chauffeur, of course, but I think the idea that the ability to drive is some great romantic requirement exists only in sit-com plots.

[Coidzor]

OK, so a while back I mentioned that there was a girl that I really liked. And I'm trying to sabotage my asking her out. Not on purpose, I just am.
One of the obstacles I've set up for myself is that I know she has her license and I don't.

Why? Does she find this to be an obstacle?

Best sex of my high school career was facilitated by my then-girlfriend's car.

@FrozenFeet: Girl number two sounds like fun, give it a shot. I disagree with Coidzor both in the sense that promiscuity does not equate to deriving one's self-esteem from sex and that I don't see why that's a worse way to derive one's self-esteem than any other, besides. I mean, I guess deriving it from one thing alone is always bad, but I think that's also almost never the case.

It's not necessarily the case, but, my experience has so far borne out that such has been the case with women who don't have the classiness necessary to de-emphasize the sheer volume of unprotected sex they've had.

If you can't see how that could possibly be bad for someone's life, well, I just don't know.

[Frozen_Feet]

Have some fun if you can keep some emotional distance, but this sounds like a crazy ex story waiting to happen.

Aye. Especially considering what I know of her ex and circumstances of their break-up.

You won't "save" her and get the girl. I know the appeal of the fantasy. But trying to protect her from the consequences of her actions is the worst thing you can do for her. The longer a person can enjoy the fun of being drama-prone without having to face up to the downsides, the less reason they have to change.

You know, in my mind, trying to "save" her is nearly mutually exclusive with "getting her", because my idea of helping someone in her state is not just protecting her from consequences, but taking steps to stop her from doing stupid things in the first place; which I suspect will make me feel like utter killjoy to her. That's part of the reason I feel so conflicted - if I'd just want to fool around with her, going along with her antics would be much easier, but I feel it won't be good for either of us in the long run.

You have any guarantee that she won't just continue her lifestyle if you do start dating her? Are you OK with the apparent plausibility of her getting drunk and sleeping around behind your back and not even being able to remember it because she won't or can't take care of herself?

Of course I have no guarantees, and likely will never have, dating or no dating. I'd have no problems with her screwing one half of the town behind my back and the other before my eyes on the kitchen table, though; I'd rather she just be sober while doing it. I want her to start taking care of herself before she gets to the point where she can't. It's likely my experiences with my alcoholic father haunting me here - I don't want to see anyone else I know of to get into such a sorry state, especially not a young mother who has her whole life ahead of her.

It ain't going to do you any good, and you ain't going to fix her.

And that's the punchline - the part of me who wants to help her doesn't expect to get anything but misplaced disdain in return. Picking someone up from snow and helping them through slosh is less something I do for affection, and more something I consider a medical duty. I'd try to do, and have done, the same for a total stranger.

[JadePhoenix]

Why would you be in the mood to deliberately misinterpret the words of the person you'd just seduced and been making out with and who had just sought clarification as to the nature of the liaison?

That's simply not it. I might just say "I don't belong to anyone" depending of tone or "If you mean to say we're dating, yeah, we are, but don't ever say I belong to you anymore". What I meant to say is that I don't find this romantic at all. It would be, at best, a let down... maybe in a 'I really thought you knew me better' sort of way.

[DeadManSleeping]

I believe it is defined to denote possession or association, the difference being that possession either denotes something one owns or something which belongs to one, while relation merely notes something that is related to one. In this sense, it's more related to the example of a "children's department" in a store; the children certainly do not own the department, nor is it exactly correct to say it belongs to them. It is, however, the "children's department" all the same, since the goods sold in that department are associated with children. Not that it really goes against the overall point, but just sayin'.

In other words, "my girlfriend" is not the girlfriend I possess, but a person who is a girlfriend and is associated with me. Or at least that's how I'd rather think of it, anyhow, hence my problem with using "mine," since that carries a an exclusively possessive valence insofar as I'm aware.

True enough. I would refer to the branch of a chain restaurant I work at as "my store", and even "mine" if it was clear what I was separating out. Not even a little possessive.

Still, I think that since "girlfriend" describes the manner of relationship, it can't be used without connection. I am not "a boyfriend". That's just not how English works. I have to be SOMEONE'S boyfriend. That's not true of the other associative cases you brought up.

Freaking linguistics, you guys.

[AtlanteanTroll]

@AtlanteanTroll: Definitely making a mountain out of a molehill. I still don't have my license and it's never seemed to matter much. Don't turn her into a chauffeur, of course, but I think the idea that the ability to drive is some great romantic requirement exists only in sit-com plots.

I never thought it was some sort of great romantic requirement, I'm just trying to put myself down for some reason.

Best sex of my high school career was facilitated by my then-girlfriend's car.

I ... But ... Missing the point?