Doctor Who thread II: "I should have a hat like that." [SPOILERS]

[Thufir]

For the discussion of Doctor Who.

First thread.

Obviously primary topic of discussion is the current series (Which restarts with Let's Kill Hitler in two days time as of this post), but discussion of past series, both of Nu Who and Classic Who.
Most notably, CurlyKitGirl has been posting a series of write ups/reviews as she watches through Nu Who and Genesis of the Daleks. Most recent archive here.
Also, of course, since she hasn't seen everything yet, if you have anything to say regarding an episode later than her pre-series 6 Nu Who reviews (Discounting The Lodger for the moment as it was a special case), please spoiler it and mark it as a Curly spoiler (Or Curler for short).
This will also apply to anyone else watching through and not up-to-date, so if you are such a person, let us know your progress and we'll try to avoid spoiling anything for you. But right now Curly is the only such person I'm aware of.

Finally, to quote River Song: "Spoilers." Obviously this thread is for discussing the series, so spoilers will abound. That said, I would ask that discussion of each new episode be spoilered for at least a few hours - maybe as much as a day - after the English broadcast, to allow for Americans being in a different time zone and people lagging a bit behind.

If anyone thinks there should be any additional resources or whatever in this OP, suggest them in-thread. Discussion may now resume!

[Thufir]

'Planet of the Ood' (Season Four, Episode Three)

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Is this the real life
is this just fantasy
Caught in a landslide
No escape from reality
Sorry, I must be watching the wrong tab, this is clearly Queen I'm watching here. I'll just, nooooo . . . this is clearly labelled season 4 episode 3 Planet of the Ood. Why is there 'Bo Rhap' all up in my Who? This is very confusing. And no way was that accidental. No. Way.

Oh wow, I never drew that comparison before, but it does look just right for it. Ood Queen.

And now the Ood is dead. Yes. My tangent was so long and pointless that it killed an Ood. I'm a fictional murderer!

You're fictionally evil! How could you fictionally do such a thing?

And wait, is that a Classic Who reference? Him having been to the Sensesphere? To Wikipedia! Yeah, that was "a long time ago" Doctor, you were still Hartnell then. And from that grainy still on the article I can see why they made that reference. The Ood and the Sensorites look similar.

Ooh, I missed/had forgotten that. Haven't watched this episode since I started watching through Classic Who clearly.

There is the neutral title 'ms', but I think it's stupid.

Hmm. Thinking about it, I find it reasonable to refer to a woman as ms. [surname], but it would sound weird to me to just call them "ms" on its own. So I guess I agree with you?

Lab Coat With No Eyes

Have I ever mentioned that your nicknaming habits cause me great amusement while reading these?

Wait what. A third brain? Because people with two brains would be eternally at war with themselves. Well, explain Zaphod Beeblebrox then.

Zaphod Beeblebrox is not the best example of mental stability.

And on more current news, I watched the preview for Let's Kill Hitler. The Doctor has one of the best answering machine messages I've ever heard.

[Kato]

Well now, Curly, I'd say the anvil was a rather large one and it's about the one thing I will probably never forget about the episode in all it's glory...
But yeah, overall it was a god episode. I wouldn't call it one of the best but definitely good. Though, I have to agree the ending was... shocking. *shudder* Probably oe of the most gory moments in Who ever (?)

[chiasaur11]

So, if I remember what I've read right

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Matt Smith, Karen Gillan, and Arthur Darvill have been confirmed for next season. Also, less arc centric.

The Doctor, Amy, and Rory just slamming around the universe causing and solving untold trouble sounds like the most fun TV one could imagine. Looking forward.

Best Doctor, best companions, great showrunner. We are too lucky for words.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Well done on the review of Planet of the Ood, Curly- that was among the most insightful I have seen you do (and given the high standard of your other reviews, that's saying quite a bit).

Oh, thank you very much.
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly made it stand out so much? I actually thought it was fairly weak because I had to cut some ten thousand characters from the post (including the archive I think) and lost some jokes and history/backstory/musings. Maybe that's why it felt better to you?

And in fairness of that:
Keith Temple's other work primarily involved writing for Byker Grove. Yeah, going from writing about a Newcastle secondary school to writing about extra-terrestrial slavery and a horrifying transformation scene.
I can see why this episode was so good.

Funnily enough, I think the Ood are actually animatronic- as in robots puppets, not prosthetics.

Just had a run around on Wikipedia and a few other places. The Ood are prosthetics, but with animatronics for the eye blinking and some of the tentacle antics.
Interestingly enough, the positioning of the Ood eyes make the extras essentially blind, so extra props to them.

Blah blah blah stuff

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Oh wow, I never drew that comparison before, but it does look just right for it. Ood Queen.

How could anyone not get it? The lighting and positioning are so iconic that it was the first thing I thought of. As I mentioned.

You're fictionally evil! How could you fictionally do such a thing?

With ease. I am a terrible, terrible person.

Ooh, I missed/had forgotten that. Haven't watched this episode since I started watching through Classic Who clearly.

I had Wikipedia and a pause button on my side. Generally whenever the Doctor - or another person - mentions having been somewhere/seen something/etc before I run to Wikipedia to see what they saw.

Hmm. Thinking about it, I find it reasonable to refer to a woman as ms. [surname], but it would sound weird to me to just call them "ms" on its own. So I guess I agree with you?

History of the title 'Ms'. Note that when it was revived in the 1960s it was revived because she was looking for a title that didn't indicate possession by a male.
Another thing I had to cut.
It basically runs as I said though. Ms if you know some information, but not all.
Still prefer Miss and Mrs. though. Call me old-fashioned.

Have I ever mentioned that your nicknaming habits cause me great amusement while reading these?

Nope.
It's probably demeaning to the actors and the characters in the show to not pay attention to their names. There's no probably about it actually. But it's become a habit now.

Zaphod Beeblebrox is not the best example of mental stability.

Never said he was. But he's not constantly at war with himself.

Well now, Curly, I'd say the anvil was a rather large one and it's about the one thing I will probably never forget about the episode in all it's glory...
But yeah, overall it was a god episode. I wouldn't call it one of the best but definitely good. Though, I have to agree the ending was... shocking. *shudder* Probably one of the most gory moments in Who ever (?)

Then the Anvil served its purpose. And as far as Who goes, it was subtler than some. But if it's the only thing you can remember it's probably too heavy for your personal tastes.
I wouldn't say that that ending is one of the goriest moments in Doctor Who's forty-nine year history, just on the principle that I've not seen all of it.
I do know that there's a story called 'The Deadly Assassin' back during the Age of Mary Whitehouse that was heavily censored for being too terrifying.
I will however, say that as far as Nu Who goes - using only seasons one through the 'The Planet of the Ood' - it is one of the goriest moments in the show. That's not going to leave me, did they really have to show mucus?!

[Xondoure]

Zaphod Beeblebrox is practically the definition of at war with himself. Not his two heads admittedly but his past and current selves have quite a thing or two to say to one another.

[Weezer]

I do know that there's a story called 'The Deadly Assassin' back during the Age of Mary Whitehouse that was heavily censored for being too terrifying.

Huh, interesting. Didn't know that. Watched Deadly Assassin a couple weeks ago and it didn't seem overly scary, it was more scary than your normal Who episode but nowheres near censor worthy.

[Sunken Valley]

Doctor Who was in the Radio Times! There was an episode guide. Time to beat everyone to the punch by revealing titles and details. Opinions are spoilered.

8 Let's Kill Hitler
We all knew this was happening, but now we know that Hitler won't be in it much. I hope this is the ep where 11 falls further than ever before.

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This has more chance to fail than be good but I'm ready for surprises.

9 Night Terrors
Mark Gattis's ep. He says it's set in the scariest place in the universe. A child's bedroom.

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This could be real scary. Gatiss is a good writer.

10 The Girl Who Waited
The title is a reference to Amy and indeed KG promises that this ep will explore her relationship with Rory. This episode is apparently about how time travel messed up Rory and Amy's life. Set in a white room. Written by virtual unknown Tom McRae (who did the Cybermen two parter waay back in 2006).

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Unknown. This has an interesting premise. Done right it could be a swell ep. Done wrong it could be like Father's Day. And I hate Father's Day.

11 The God Complex
This is set in a scary hotel where nightmares come to life. Will contain the line "12 years on and Rory's still scared of Granny Granger". Toby Whithouse wrote this.

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This could be good too, although Whithouse is not such a good writer. Will be constantly compared to Night Terrors.

12 Closing Time
A sequel to the Lodger. Will have Cybermats. And a baby.

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Lodger worked, but will it's sequel? I'm not sure

13 The Wedding of River Song.
Line: "I don't want to marry you" "I don't want to kill you". Moffat says that in it "the Doctor goes to his inevitable death but it does not go as well as he intended". He also says that it will be the best wedding of 2011 (I still say Will and Kate was best

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??? Obviously there will have to be a build up between eps to this.

Carried over from last thread

[CurlyKitGirl]

And now for something a bit embarrassing. The debates happening at the end of the last thread were rather intense, and someone did ask me to offer up my opinions.
For some reason.

Warning: will be long, hence the spoilers.
I also haven't, to my shame, seen all of season five. I've only really seen the Angel two-parter (but not all of it), I remember seeing bits of 'Vampires of Venice' and the two-parter finale. But not all of it. I missed the middle of the 'The Pandorica Opens' and parts of 'The Big Bang'. But not all of it.
So naturally I don't have all the info from season five, I have though seen all of season six so far.
Go me.

On killing the Silents as a 'what the Hell hero' moment:

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No, as of the information we know at this particular time (two minutes past eight in the evening on 25/08/2011) we know the following about the Silents:

• in the season five finale we are told 'Silence/Silents will fall' - me, I think the message was gloating, and so the Silents are looking forward to the silence that may or may not have been the end of the universe. If we assume that the Silents were somehow responsible for the end of the universe, well, it was bad.
  If we assume the end of the universe was a lucky coincidence then it could be that the silence is coming up in the next half of season six. Both of these options are based on the species/group (could be a cult after all) name and the fact that the voice that proclaimed 'Silence/Silents will fall' sounds similar to the voice of the Silent in 'The Impossible Astronaut'/'The Day of the Moon'.
  If we assume the voice said 'Silents will fall' it's a prophecy. The Doctor doesn't really escape prophecies very often, or he finds loopholes, and it's hard to find a loophole in a prophecy of three words.
• In the season six episode 'The Impossible Astronaut' we see a Silent vaporise a woman for, basically, gits and shiggles. She wasn't going to remember the Silent was there. This was a senseless murder, simply for the sake of it. The only thing the Silent says regards the woman is "Joy. Her name was Joy." (thank you transcripts) As Joy never gave her name, the Silents are telepathic. And seeing as Joy's name was offered up as the reason she was killed it isn't impossible to assume that Joy was killed because she was 'joy'.
• They have something that looks like a TARDIS. Other people who have a TARDIS include: the Doctor who can make or break planets at will; the Master who is stark raving mad and likes killing things; various other Time Lords who are implied to be benevolent or malevolent whenever the whim takes them. Just running off of my personal experience of people with TARDISes, chances are the Silents are bad guys.
• It is made clear over the two episodes that the Silents had imprisoned a minimum of one child (now known to be Melody/River) for a minimum of seven years against her will. In a condemned building. Driving her sole(?) human caretaker insane over Lord knows how many years. Based on the information we know now we can only see negative motives behind this. They may have been employed by Madame Kovarian. Either way, they stole Amy and Rory's baby from them for no reason. Kidnappers are bad people.
  And if they did this to one family, what if they did it to others?
• "Humanity should kill us on sight". They admitted it themselves. They know that what they're doing will negatively affect the human race, no matter what their overall intentions. It could be that their actions now will save someone or something else later on.
• We then find out over the course of the two-part opener that the Silents have been on Earth long enough to create a network of tunnels vast enough to startle River Song. From the Doctor's own mouth "Super parasites. Standing in the shadows of human history since the very beginning. We know they can influence human behaviour any way they want. If they've been doing that on a global scale for thousands of years..." [my emphasis].

What we get is the opinion of the protagonists.
They are working from a limited narrative viewpoint. Discounting the Melody revelation, but knowing they still abducted a child who had pictures of Amy in her room, the TARDIS Crew know the folllowing: they've been manipulating humanity for who knows how long and for what overall purpose, and generally? People who manipulate from the shadows are up to something sinister. Throw in the fact that the person in the space suit who shot Future!Doctor was in the same type of suit the SIlents had designed. To hold/heal/contain the girl.
Generally, people who try to kill the Doctor do so because they've done bad things.
Generally, people who mind control others also get on the Doctor's goat. Free will and such.

As far as the TARDIS Crew are concerned they were right in trying to get the Silents off of Earth. Yes, unknown numbers of Silents were killed, but their technological level (super space suits, a TARDIS-like machine, directing humanity's evolution for thousands of years) indicates they're not stuck on Earth. And they're likely not just kept to one planet.
Besides, we know some survive because we saw a Silent in 2010 by the lake, so some survived the order given by a Silent (one they had to obey) back in 1967.

So in-universe the kill-order was justified as far as the protagonists were concerned, and out-of-universe the majority of people watching would agree that the Silents were a bad lot.
Besides, it's hardly as if the Doctor hasn't killed entire species before, or done worse things for no reason. Remember Harriet Jones (former Prime Minister of Great Britain)? She was meant to bring in the country's Golden Age. And the Doctor destroyed that future. Why? Because she gave the order to kill one ship of Sycorax. The Doctor had ordered the ship to leave, and they were, but the thing is, as far as Harriet Jones was concerned, the Doctor isn't always there to save them, so she had to act in her own interests, and those of the country and the world. The Doctor may have saved that particular day, but what if the Sycorax came back? That's what she thought, and she answered: the Doctor might not be there.
Her beliefs and the Doctor's clashed, and rather than take a more moderate approach ("Don't do it again or else!") he destroyed her career, and in doing so, postponed or stopped the GOlden Age of Britain and whatever else would come from that. That being everything that comes from it, including people, the things they did, inventions, all things based off of people's works or inventions and so on. Massive snowball.
The Doctor has also repeatedly attempted genocide on the Daleks, including once being willing to shoot the last Dalek alive (Nine in 'Dalek'). Eight/Nine also killed the Time Lords. And Ten was more than willing to just stand and watch the Racnoss die. Oh, and Four is going to genocide the Daleks before they were created.
The Doctor is more than willing to commit genocide. Odd thing to say, but that's one of the draws to the character. In this particular case, the Silents were warned, and they know that they'll die if they're seen by humans, so chances are, they're going to leave.
Only difference is that Classic Doctors didn't tend to angst over killing them. Just another day. Nu Doctors are all in the angst. I've heard the nicknames Ten.

On Eleven's Companions not stopping him from killing an entire species:

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So? They had very vested interests in what was happening. Amy saw pictures of her with a baby in a girl's room in an abandoned orphanage run by the Silents. The girl then showed up in a space suit. And it was the same one that shot the Doctor. Canonically Amy's best friend. One of Rory's best friends. And River's . . . lover. Or something.
Also, as far as I know this is the first case where Eleven's Companions are facing a genocide/mass killing. The only other possible situation is 'The Rebel Flesh'/'The Almost People'. Here Amy was all for the kill kill solution. Something the Doctor didn't want. And Rory, though not overly stating anything was pretty firmly on the 'let them live' side of things, and actively took the side of the Gangers. Doesn't really compare if the Doctor wants to save a species.
So I can't really comment on this as I don't have anything to which I can compare the Silents incident.

As for Four, Eight, Nine and Ten?
Four's Companions don't know what the Doctor's up to.
Eight had no comparable situation. Well, end of the human race, and they were both in agreement there.
Nine? Wanted to kill the Dalek in 'Dalek', Rose was very much against it; but when the Doctor saw the Dalek was slightly human he stood back and let it kill itself. In 'The Unqiuet Dead' Rose and the Doctor went back and forth over the Gelth; the Doctor wants to save them, Rose is cool with that until we get zombies involved. Then at the last, these aliens - the last of their kind - were killed with little remorse by Rose and the Doctor. And when it came back to the Daleks?
Rose was more than fine killing Daleks again with Ten. And Cybermen in her last season finale. Oh, and the possible last of its kind werewolf in 'Tooth and Claw'. So cavalier they were exiled from Great Britain.
Captain Jack never had any compunction against killing either.
Martha? No comparable situation. Oh wait, the Carrionites. They were evil, using mathematics to change the world, and so they were genocided. Insofar as they're sealed away in a bubbleverse forever.
Donna? Gave the Doctor a bollicking when it came to the Racnoss. And saving the Roman family in Pompeii. But Donna's not yet been in a situation where the Doctor is key to saving a species yet. So.

In summary, Donna is the strongest Companion I've seen so far in that in four episodes she's stood up to the Doctor twice. Once where she told him off for killing a species, and once to save someone. She's wonderful.
Now, I've not seen all of Rory and Amy, but Rory punched the Doctor in the face when he said Amy wasn't worth anything.
He and Amy were at serious odds during the 'Rebel Flesh'/'The Almost People' two-parter because he knew what it felt like to not be real.
But when it comes down to it, he's the Last Centurion. He lasted nineteen hundred years protecting his wife. He faced down an entire Cyberfleet to find out where Amy was. And didn't flinch when the Doctor began to destroy them. He'll kill when people he loves are in danger. Same as Amy, she shot the astronaut to save the Doctor.
River has no mercy. She'll kill if necessary.

Yes, a Companion is generally a restraining force on the Doctor, to pull him back and stop him - or try to - if they feel he's gone too far. But Companions can also go too far, demand that someone/a species die. Ace has a rocket launcher, I know that much. Amy and the gangers. Any Companion and the Daleks.
I actually really like Rory and Amy, they're amazing. They're the Doctor's best friends, which leads me onto the next point.

Eleven's Companions only exist to flirt and adore the Doctor:

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If you've read my write ups you know my opinions.
Rose; I hate her. Rose/Doctor is unrequited canon. But I can tolerate Rose/Nine, it works; it was subtle and fun. Cheeky. But when Ten came along she got down on her knees and began worshipping him; he barely did a thing wrong in her eyes. And she got jealous over everyone. Including Sarah Jane Smith.
Captain Jack Harkness is an omnisexual madman without a box. He flirts with everyone, and he does not particularly like the Doctor.
Martha? She loved Ten, wanted in his pants within twenty-four hours of meeting him. She got over it.
Donna? They're friends, they argue a lot. And Donna (like Martha) has stated her unromantic interest in him. Hopefully she sticks to it.
Amy flirts with him, yes. But from what I see, so does Rory a bit. And the two are married. They're comfortable enough in their marriage to do so. And while Rory was definitely a little worried at first ('Day of the Moon'), but he got in on the action too.
OT4: Doctor/TARDIS/Rory/Amy.
But yeah, I can see (remember, I haven't really seen much of season five at all) that Amy flirted a lot more than the others, but here's the thing: Amy was or is mentally ill. Possibly also experiencing wedding jitters.
And River, she's confusing, but from the looks of things, I think River/Doctor is canon up to and including marriage. She has an excuse to flirt.

But Rory calls out the Doctor a lot. Amy not so much, but she's also more unhinged than he is, and is simply more willing to plunge headlong into an adventure.
As far as I know.

River Sue?

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She was running dangerously close to it in the Vashta Narada two-parter. Then she died.
When she came back it was made clear to us that as the Doctor's personal timeline goes forward River's goes backwards.
This means River Song's character is being unmade. There is a noticeable difference between the cool reactions of Dr. Song in the library, and the slightly more emotive, more dangerous criminal River Song in the Angel two-parter. And it keeps on going.
Her character is being reversed, and this is really noticeable if you compare the River of 'The Impossible Astronaut'/'The Day of the Moon' with the River of 'A Good Man Goes to War'. In the latter she's much happier, seems a little more childlike (I don't think library!River would have reacted to Rory in the same way), and when she goes into professional mode she's still not as porfessional as she was as Angel!River and Astronaut!River.
it's subtle, but it's there.
Melody is little more than a plot macguffin at this point.
The most Sue-ish trait River has is being part-Time Lord. Because of being exposed to the Time Vortex during conception. And we already know that looking into the Time Vortex turned Rose into . . . God. So it's canon that the Time Vortex does things to non-TIme Lords. Remember argh, that Slitheen lady from 'Boom Town'? Yeah.
Still a bit Sueish, but it's tolerable.
I basically agree with [B]Starscream[/B's] analysis.
The Doctor is a Mary Sue on the surface. And he's amazing to watch.
Rose is the ultimate Mary Sue Companion as far as I'm concerned. Up to and including the fact that the creator loves her and that this is the first(?) canon time the Doctor has ever expressed and returned romantic love for a Companion.
Granted, Moffat loves River too, but it's not as obvious or sickening. I think River is a genuinely interesting and fun personality, with numerous flaws. Her past is unknown, and she does appear to have had a romantic relationship with the Doctor; but she's also a minor character.
A Mary Sue isn't always a bad thing as long as the character isn't a main one. And in River's case she first showed up in season four, ep. eight and has had six episodes in which she is a supporting character (I don't count 'A Good Man Goes to War' as she was in it for about five minutes tops) in about twenty-five or so episodes.
Captain Carrot for instance hits all the markers of being a Mary Sue, but he isn't because he's a supporting character, and is interesting.

Idiot Amy?

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She has or had a mental illness. She saw multiple psychologists as a child. The cracks in the universe ate away at her life as well.
If she's not 'mentally normal' she has more than enough excuses.
Is she a complete idiot? No. I called Martha MtM for a reason. Rose is also more than a bit stupid. And Donna. But there's something called character development. They went through it.
Amy is more willing to plunge headlong into adventures, doesn't tend to think before she acts, and yet at times she demonstrates more common sense than Rory or the Doctor.
The Doctor is a genius. A stupid genius. Remember 'Rose' when it took three or four repeated hints from Rose to point out the London Eye that he was standing right in front of.
She's not the smartest Companion on Doctor Who's fifty year history, but she's not the stupidest either.

Moffat's run on the show?

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Haven't seen all of it, can't give an accurate impression. I'm not pelased season six was split in two, but I did like it a lot. The opening episode was a little too complicated, but if you took the time to think about it after the episode aired it made sense. As much as it could at the time.
Everyone agrees 'The Curse of the Black Spot' was far and away the weakest episode, but it still had its moments. Needed more pirates though. It's a pretty big flaw in a pretty good season. Not perfect, but frankly, I can't give a verdict on a season that's not finished yet.
And with Mark Gatiss writing an episode, and there being some really interesting premises for upcoming episodes, it looks pretty good.

RTD's run on the show?

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Can't give an opinion as I've not seen all of it. Can't compare it either for obvious reasons. However, season two was the weakest, three is the strongest, and one was in the middle. Four is looking to be very good too.
Three had a lot of very strong episodes, but the finale was weakened by the Jesus!Doctor. One had the best finale so far, and two's was mediocre in that it tried to do too much at once, and so failed.
On the plus side it got rid of Rose.
On the down side it was all framed by Rose telling us how she 'died'. Self-centred twit.
Rose is the worst thing RTD ever did to Doctor Who. That and 'Love and Monsters'. I know how it came to be, but it still sucked.
And though he does try hard, his finale resolution isn't the best I've seen. By a long shot.
And really, I'm going to do retrospectives on seasons one and two, so I can better explain my thoughts there.

Wow. That was a lot of rambling.

[comicshorse]

Huh, interesting. Didn't know that. Watched Deadly Assassin a couple weeks ago and it didn't seem overly scary, it was more scary than your normal Who episode but nowheres near censor worthy.

Gotta admit when I saw the 'Deadly Assassin' as a kid it scared the living hell out of me. Aside from the 'Ark in Space' (which got to me cause of my phobia about insects) the scariest of the Dr Who stories.

[Sunken Valley]

Love and Monsters was cool! It was about the impact the Doctor has on ordinary people. It's heart was in the right place. Although it was naff and the reason why they chose to make later finales three parters in the RTD era.

Anyways, noticed something interesting. Several times in RTD's era (quite a lot of times come to think), the companions dress up when in the past to disguise their future nature. Realised after I saw "Unquiet Dead" again and the Doctor telling Rose she'd cause a riot wearing her normal 21st century clothes. In moffat's era this has not happened. At all. Amy has been to WWII (twice!), 16th century venice, 19th Century Holland/France, Roman Britain and 1969 and gotten away with wearing normal clothes. So has Rory (I'm not counting Centurion). Does this indicate a lack of caring about proper period dress sense? Karen Gillan refusing as she is a model (Amy may not be stupid but Karen is not that bright. I have met her.)? What do others think?

@Curly: does this mean we have to spoiler season five as well, as you have not seen it?

[Thufir]

Remember Harriet Jones (former Prime Minister of Great Britain)? She was meant to bring in the country's Golden Age. And the Doctor destroyed that future. Why? Because she gave the order to kill one ship of Sycorax. The Doctor had ordered the ship to leave, and they were, but the thing is, as far as Harriet Jones was concerned, the Doctor isn't always there to save them, so she had to act in her own interests, and those of the country and the world. The Doctor may have saved that particular day, but what if the Sycorax came back? That's what she thought, and she answered: the Doctor might not be there.
Her beliefs and the Doctor's clashed, and rather than take a more moderate approach ("Don't do it again or else!") he destroyed her career, and in doing so, postponed or stopped the GOlden Age of Britain and whatever else would come from that. That being everything that comes from it, including people, the things they did, inventions, all things based off of people's works or inventions and so on. Massive snowball.

Removing Harriet Jones also opened the way for the Master to take over the country. Since the Doctor couldn't have known, that's not so much "What the hell, hero," as it is "Oops", but it's a preety big "oops".

But yeah, I can see (remember, I haven't really seen much of season five at all) that Amy flirted a lot more than the others, but here's the thing: Amy was or is mentally ill. Possibly also experiencing wedding jitters.

Pretty sure Amy wasn't mentally ill. I was confused as to why you thought that until further through the post, so I'll explain it at that point.
What Amy is is a bit flighty, also she completely idolised the Doctor after meeting him when she was seven, basically turned him into a superhero in her head, the Raggedy Doctor who was going to take her away from all the drudgery of her life in Leadworth to go on adventures through time and space. So, yeah, she has a bit of a thing for the Doctor. It's understandable in the circumstances.

She has or had a mental illness. She saw multiple psychologists as a child.

Right, here we are.
Pretty sure she wasn't mentally ill. Her aunt just thought she was because she kept going on about this imaginary 'Raggedy Doctor' with a box that was a time machine and so on, well after msot children would abandon such things. And it was only multiple psychiatrists because she kept biting them.

Though there is the point I mentioned above of her obsession with the Doctor, which is certainly not normal, and probably not healthy. But she got over that well enough during series five.

The cracks in the universe ate away at her life as well.

That also is a good point.

[Starscream]

Karen Gillan refusing as she is a model (Amy may not be stupid but Karen is not that bright. I have met her.)? What do others think?

I dunno, she agreed to wear Roman clothes and trowel makeup on her face for her role in Fires of Pompeii. And there's the cop uniform, and the nightgown, and the pirate duds. I don't think she's opposed to looking a little silly.

[Sunken Valley]

I dunno, she agreed to wear Roman clothes and trowel makeup on her face for her role in Fires of Pompeii. And there's the cop uniform, and the nightgown, and the pirate duds. I don't think she's opposed to looking a little silly.

My bad, didn't notice that. Still, there is an overt lack of period dress from time travellers in Moffats run. Is it loss of budget? What do you all think?

[Xondoure]

My bad, didn't notice that. Still, there is an overt lack of period dress from time travellers in Moffats run. Is it loss of budget? What do you all think?

Just a different team, and prehaps an intentional remark on 11 being careless. But from what I recall dressing up under Davies was more of a choice and less of a requirement.

[Kato]

Yeah, I guess it would be nice once in a while but to my limited knowledge wasn't it rather uncommon for the companions to dress up according to the period before, too? With a few exceptions, of course.
They are more like tourists than anyone who wants to blend in in most cases. And tourists are flashy.

[Starscream]

Well, let's go through the list. I'll ignore Future-Stories, as we have no idea what would be acceptable for those periods, and focus on every time Amy has travelled to the past.

Victory of the Daleks - Normal clothes, but they were summoned there by Winston Churchill, who knows full well that the Doctor is a time traveller. So no real need to blend.

The Vampires of Venice - Normal clothes at first, but they dress more appropriately as a disguise in order to get Amy into the school.

Vincent and the Doctor - Normal clothes. No excuse here, they just don't bother.

The Impossible Astronaut/Day of the Moon - Normal clothes, but it's the 1960s. Miniskirts were in, so Amy's usual duds are perfectly acceptable.

The Curse of the Black Spot - They were responding to a distress call, and they were probably in a hurry. It seems they didn't expect to end up on a pirate ship anyway, so its understandable that they wouldn't be prepared. And Amy dons pirate clothes later on.

Overall I don't think it's a problem. Only Vincent doesn't have any real attempt to fit in at any point, or any good reason why she wouldn't.

[Mercenary Pen]

The Curse of the Black Spot - They were responding to a distress call, and they were probably in a hurry. It seems they didn't expect to end up on a pirate ship anyway, so its understandable that they wouldn't be prepared. And Amy dons pirate clothes later on.

Just a thought, should there really be any such thing as Hurrying to a distress call when you can travel through time? I mean, obviously there is, with the doctor as a case in point, but is there really any need for such?


Also @ Curly: Will try and give a fuller answer when I have the time to put my thoughts into order, but in part it had to do with the insights on slavery (especially the ongoing present day stuff)- I find the historical and present-day insights more interesting than the attempts at humour I guess...

[Androgeus]

Karen is not that bright.

She's apprently never heard of a marrow. Second vid

[CurlyKitGirl]

Love and Monsters was cool! It was about the impact the Doctor has on ordinary people. It's heart was in the right place. Although it was naff and the reason why they chose to make later finales three parters in the RTD era.

Different strokes for different people.
Me, I found it so boringly agonising that I skipped watching most of it during my marathon of season two.

@Curly: does this mean we have to spoiler season five as well, as you have not seen it?

Not if you don't want to. But if people are addressing something I've written which is vaguely write up or analytically based avoiding season five stuff would be appreciated.

Also @ Curly: Will try and give a fuller answer when I have the time to put my thoughts into order, but in part it had to do with the insights on slavery (especially the ongoing present day stuff)- I find the historical and present-day insights more interesting than the attempts at humour I guess...

That's fine. I love writing the comparisons and insights as they're what I'm writing these things for. The humour - what little there is - comes from going in blind.

By the by.
We have a new record. I'm exactly two seconds into 'The Sontaran Stratagem' (which I keep wanting to write as 'The Sontaran Experiment') and my thoughts on this episode have already done a complete one-eighty. Based solely on the two seconds I've seen.
New record. And not one likely to be broken easily.

[The Extinguisher]

So I'm thinking about the whole River thing.

Spoiler

Show

She can't have a complete opposite timeline as the Doctor. We see her in Silence in the Library meeting the Tenth Doctor who doesn't know her at all, and you think if she knows that she'll never see him again she'd be a bit more broken up. As well we're told that her second last meeting with the Doctor was the most romantic night of her life, which is weird if they're strictly backwards. Also it heavily implies in Time of Angels that it was the second meeting.

[comicshorse]

exactly[/I] two seconds into 'The Sontaran Stratagem' (which I keep wanting to write as 'The Sontaran Experiment') and my thoughts on this episode have already done a complete one-eighty. Based solely on the two seconds I've seen.
New record. And not one likely to be broken easily.

Does Martha turn up that early in the episode

[Level8Mudcrab]

So I'm thinking about the whole River thing.

Spoiler

Show

She can't have a complete opposite timeline as the Doctor. We see her in Silence in the Library meeting the Tenth Doctor who doesn't know her at all, and you think if she knows that she'll never see him again she'd be a bit more broken up. As well we're told that her second last meeting with the Doctor was the most romantic night of her life, which is weird if they're strictly backwards. Also it heavily implies in Time of Angels that it was the second meeting.

Spoiler

Show

I assume that after his first meeting with River (From River's perspective), the Doctor will go out of order to meet her for one final night, and give her his screwdriver at this point.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Does Martha turn up that early in the episode

Nope. She shows up for two seconds just before the intro runs at about the four minute mark. She managed a whole four seconds before she bunny-faced me.

At the second second mark we get our first glimpse of the Academy. That's all I'm going to say.

Another update:
I keep having to mention Rose. Because this episode is a partial rip-off a another episode.
On the other hand: UNIT!
I'm only 06:17 into the episode and I'm very conflicted. On the one hand: UNIT. On the other hand: the Brat.

[Philistine]

Wait. Did it just take you 3h1m to watch 6m15s of video? Time really does flow differently on the other side of the pond, I guess.

[CurlyKitGirl]

Wait. Did it just take you 3h1m to watch 6m15s of video? Time really does flow differently on the other side of the pond, I guess.

One hour for walking the dogs, twenty minutes to go to the shops, time for a shower, watching other shows, reading 'Mark Reads Twilight', research, trying to strangle my internet connection for dying on me seventeen times in half an hour . . .
I multitask.
Plus I complain a lot so it can take quite a while to watch an episode.
I'm only just now up to 08:20 because I took issues with the map in the lorry showing death locations and Martha's off-handed report on the autopsies.

This goes to show that thinking about Doctor Who or any sci-fi show logically, or even applying basic common sense about the world to the show is wrong.
It breaks so many things.
The sad thing is, even if I let all that slip it still fails by the internal logic of the show.

Time for me to reveal a spoiler for the write up.
The writer for these episodes was Helen Raynor.
She who wrote a certain season three two-parter . . .

[Thufir]

Oh, I just remembered something which might interest you, Curly (And anyone else who was unaware of it): Before and during series three, Martha Jones kept a blog on Myspace.

I mean, it's nothing special and nothing new really, just her perspective on the events of the episodes, but I remember I found it interesting at the time. Wish I'd remembered it actually while you were still watching through series three.

[Sunken Valley]

50 minutes until Let's Kill Hitler! For once, I hope I'm wrong.

[Helanna]

50 minutes until Let's Kill Hitler! For once, I hope I'm wrong.

I was watching one of the Confidentials a couple days ago, and apparently Matt Smith thinks this might be one of Moffat's best episodes, so I'm hoping he's right.

And now to shun this thread . . . I still have another 7 hours or so 'til it's on.

[DwarvenExodus]

Well, that was... interesting. If we're continuing the Doctor/River symmetry, is this the last time we're ever going to see Alex Kingston as River? Somehow, I doubt that.