OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

[Mantine]

Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm

[ricorum]

So, reading through the forum just answered my question about the two punchlines. Cleric's feather fall is just letting them fall than healing them, and Durkon can't pronounce things correctly. Am I right?

[Threadnaught]

The "stretch" is the possibility of it happening. Something is called a stretch because it requires you to reach for an explanation that is not easily at hand, like a person stretching to reach the top shelf.

However, the explanation here is easily reachable by anyone: Nale has a history of carefully planning his attacks to match his enemies' strengths and weaknesses. He went to a store and bought a wand. He picked a wand that he could use and that complimented the existing powers of his girlfriend. Done. Easy. No stretching required. If the average reader can see something and completely understand how or why it happened, even if it happened off-panel and isn't discussed, then it's not a stretch. The fact that he chose well just means he's good at choosing.

Ultimately, I think everyone understands what you are saying. It's just that what you are saying is wrong. It's not even remotely in the same class as your Athena example, and you seem to be the only one who thinks it is. The wand is not external, because it has been explicitly explained that Nale went shopping for magic items. The wand is not arbitrary, because it is within his price range and it makes sense that he would pick something evil and effective. The wand is not solving the problem, because the damn fight is not over yet. So if it's not external, not arbitrary, and not solving the problem, it cannot be a Deus Ex Machina.

I am so sick of this computer turning itself off when I get even slightly wordy, it's even more annoying than the people who keep asserting that Nale's ability to prepare magic items for a fight against the order is a Deus Ex Machina.


There are only three things in the comic so far I can remember that I believe are actual DEs. Celia falling through the ceiling, this wasn't even hinted at before that specific strip. Julio Scoundrél who appeared just to forward the plot and give Elan a PrC. And on the evil side of the game/story we have Julia Greenhilt as a means to lure the order to Cliffport.

Could you confirm or deny any of these for me, or would you appreciate me keeping my current interpretation of the story?


You write a good story, thanks for the entertainment so far.

And I like the gaming articles too, they're full of great tips.

[UtimaII]

Heh, heh. Cleric's Feather Fall. That was just awesome, particularly because of its simplicity.

[Nohar]

A wonderful strip, and a faithful callback to this comic's origins. I love it :) Cleric Feather Fall was gold

[The Succubus]

Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.

Treasure this moment Rich. It's something to tell your grandkids about!

[Surfing HalfOrc]

Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

OK, well, I guess let's let this drop and everyone can get back to the process of analyzing the flight rules for inaccuracies within the comic or whatever.

NOBODY expects to win an argument on the Internet! Thats why it's so EFFECTIVE!

100 Shiny, New Internets to the Giant! HUZZAH!

[The Succubus]

NOBODY expects to win an argument on the Internet! Thats why it's so EFFECTIVE!

100 Shiny, New Internets to the Giant! HUZZAH!

Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now?

[Cornelius Grim]

Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now?

Yeah, he's awesome enough to do it. I'd buy it.

[Darthteej]

Does this mean he has to win 100 more arguments now?

Don't provoke him, he'll do it. His username comes from his tendency to act like a Know-It-All on the WoTC forums, after all.

[One Skunk Todd]

Is anybody else looking for a rickroll buried somewhere in Rich and Mantine's discussion?

[One Skunk Todd]

Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

[Adeptus]

I would advice our beloved Giant to not feed the trolls, but of course it's his time to spend as he wants.

It was one of the funniest strips in the comic, and that's a very high standard.

[Gilphon]

Me, I'm just a little surprised that The Giant, who rarely posts in the discussion threads at all, bothered to have an argument with the one guy posting who expressed a negative opinion.

But giving the Giant internets for winning the argument is a pointless gesture; I'm pretty sure he already has a near infinite supply by now.

[WickedWizard17]

What with all the negative levels being passed around, I'm starting to think the Giant wants to tell a lower level story. We currently have the Order pegged at around 11-12th, right?

Wrong. They're all higher, around 15th, at least Durkon and V. Mass Death Ward is an eighth level spell and so is Power Word Stun, that V used when s/he and Haley were fighting the bounty hunters, almost 100 strips ago. Although Durkon may be lower level, I'm not entirely sure about the rules for divine spellcasting, and the Giant stated that he had been under the impression that MDW was a seventh level spell.

One of the absolute funniest strips in a long time. Also, I think just about every time Thor shows up he is hilarious. Great strip.



Frodo arrives at the river, which suddenly and unexpectedly attacks the ringwraiths.

The battle at Helm's Deep is going great until Saruman suddenly and inexplicably destroys the wall with magic.

There are countless other examples. These things happen all the time in literature. What you are talking about happening at Mount Doom would of course be ridiculous, because it would be anticlimactic for the end of the trilogy. This isn't the end of the OOTS, however, just mid-battle, and is maintaining the tension and the suspense. The characters will show their inner strength plenty by adapting to these challenges. They haven't failed to have inner strength just because they can't predict everything that will happen. They are finite beings, after all, not gods. That makes them a lot more "human" and interesting then if they just kick straight ass all the time, and to be honest I like them more because of it.

Hear, hear!

I've not played 3.5 since 4e came out, but I thought that Heal would have restored Elan's negative levels. Am I mistaken in this?

It might have restored them, we don't know yet because he hadn't done much besides wake up. If not, Durkon could cast the simple fourth level Restoration, as has been cited multiple times.

[EmperorSarda]

This leads me to believe that maybe there is deliberate outside interference, someone off-screen creating 'white noise' on purpose in the 'spellcasting hotline'.

Or as the Giant said as has been indicated in the comic, Durkon is not done researching "Mass Death Ward". There are still some kinks to work out, and he probably needs to Commune with Thor to get that spell available.

[WickedWizard17]

Either that's a really flimsy mace, or it should be a focus.

Um, he was kidding about it being an actual spell component. He just meant that unlike Squishy Wizards, clerics have the physical cajones to whack someone in the back of the head and put them to sleep without an actual spell - just like how Clerical Feather Fall isn't really Feather Fall, just casting Heal to negate enough damage that he might as well have not fallen.

Also, OMFG the Giant participated so much! Nice change. Congratulations on actually winning an argument on the Internet! Heaven knows I never have.

[ThePhantasm]

Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm

I actually was writing my response while the Giant was posting his, so I didn't see it until after I made my comment. Furthermore I was clarifying something someone else said, not carrying out an argument (which had already run its course). Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump to assumptions.

[Karoug]

The much more likely explanation is that since Durkon researched it (since it isn't in core), the angels don't recognize it. Durkon mentions his research specifically in the previous comic (805) - and Roy asked for the spell a hundred and thirty-four strips ago.

Those two would have the capability to pull that, but I think they would've been shown doing something to interfere had that happened.

Wow... just wow.... totally right about the much earlier reference... kudos!

But, I don't think that we would necessarily have been forewarned of unexpected factors -eg the return of Z'dtrri came out of the blue. That's the point of things happening off-screen- Rule of Drama, when they are revealed in the right moment...

Just saying that the Giant so far has not introduced a character without exploring his/her full (roleplaying) potential, and Malack has not yet shown his. From a pure metagaming prespective, it could just be his time to shine.

But maybe I'm just being paranoid here...

[Mantine]

I would advice our beloved Giant to not feed the trolls, but of course it's his time to spend as he wants.

How come everytime someone has a discussion and/or expresses criticism about something, a few shortsighted people will always rush and label it as flame/trolling?

trolling<>criticism
flame<>discussion
This thread is about strip #806 and everything that matters it, be it praise, discussion or criticism.
Since what actually took place here was a decent, adult conversation which reached a mutual agreement, on what basis do you feel entitled to insult it, and insult me?
Keep such disrespectful comments to yourself, they're not needed.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Not much. Firstly, there's no "diabolous ex machina".
"Deus" doesn't equal good nor bad, in ancient and common literature it's simply seen as an "act of god" which forwards the plot or solves an entangled situation.
It has no side, they're all "Deus Ex Machina".
Maybe you were confusing it with the trope, dunno.. but if so, I'm hoping you didn't believe that the term "Deus Ex Machina" was simply born out of Tvtropes

Secondly, what I said is that the situation is a Deus Ex, not Nale's ability of carrying wands.
Just to make myself crystal clear, allow me to give you an example of a notorious, blatant deus ex:
in the "Odyssey", at about the end of it, we have Athena suddenly appearing and transforming Ulysses into an old-aged beggar, so that he could safely infiltrate his mansion at Ithaca perfectly unnoticed and undetected by the hordes of his enemies.
Sure, someone could come and argue "How is it a DE for a high-level goddess to use magic?".
And that would be missing the point.

Getting back on topic, of course there's nothing wrong for such a character to possess a wand.
But -that- wand, right then, with such a perfect timing and regardless of already having someone like sabine doing level draining?
What are the odds?
The same of Ulysses getting the perfect disguise just few moments before stepping into the lion's den.
It's the "stretch" that matters, not the possibility of it happening.

I contend that his usage of a newer term does not negate its value, but instead validates its usage as a more appropriate delineation for good and evil beings being helped by a positive or negative powerful entity. True the original meaning of Deux Ex Machina did not make such a delineation, but in truth the term originally only related to the protagonists being saved at the last moment and frequently was literally a pulley machine acting as the hand of Odin or Zeus saving them with no real valid explanation other then it was the will of the supreme being. The term comes from Ancient Theatre and was actually a machine, so technically Deux Ex Machina was ONLY for good because it was always used for the protagonist/heroes or innocents and neutrals. And while Diabolous Ex Machina was not originally ever used, it is a very accurate modern term to be an evil counterpart since it is a Devil/Demon from the Machine... which we have seen (Qarr's One-In-A-Million Chance) here, because that was... well... seriously a stretch... though as Elan shows, completely the Trope of One-In-A-Million Chance... Impossible is Impossible, Unlikely is Unlikely, but One-In-A-Million is guaranteed to happen!!!

On that note, I believe this actually needs its own special term

Deux Sans Machina or G-D without a machine... as shown with the Colon Tumor so long ago, Thor's answering Machine and the way his devices work are all broken. So this is a moment when the Machine is missing :)

I'm confused, didn't Sabine clearly state "We can't take a cleric like this"?
Doesn't the wand rapidly fix that?
How is this not "an unsolved problem that gets resolved" ?

I may agree about the not external and not arbitrary, but the case at hand seems to fall completely under the
"Oh no, we're ****ed"
"Welp, time to use THAT" DE trope.

This point was ninja'd by... well The Giant mainly... AWESOME!!!

No! Sabine has an opinion, then Nale tells her that he thinks she is wrong. Sabine is not stating a definitive fact that Nale then changes. Sabine would have seen Nale buy the wand! She knows it exists. She simply isn't taking it into her estimation because she is not as smart as Nale is.

You are taking Sabine's tactical assessment as the absolute truth, and then you are taking Nale's disagreement with her as a change of circumstance. But both are opinions. Their accuracy is not guaranteed. Therefore, whether the "problem" of them not being able to take on a cleric ever existed at all is entirely opinion-based. Sabine said there was a problem, Nale said there wasn't. He didn't solve the problem, he denied that it even existed. But nothing changed. Nale had the same power level with the same amount of magic items before and after he pulled the wand out of his stash. The fact that the audience didn't know about it yet doesn't matter.

Unlike the Athena example, where Odysseus did NOT have the disguise before someone showed up to give it to him.

Sorry Giant, I actually want to argue the fact Athena is even really a Deux Ex herself... Odysseus is arguably one of the most inventive heroes in Greek Mythology, so Athena was more a contrived expedience instead of Homer writing about Odysseus spending hours making a beggar costume before heading in (unless we accept that the Myth is true and not a work of ancient storytelling, in which case it is just an accurate account) which would have been pointless exposition and Athena was more dramatic as well as making it seem like the Olympian Pantheon was sort of apologizing for his losing his crew and years of his life. So while it was a bit contrived, this was not a real save. A real Deux Ex would be more The gifts of Perseus in the original Harry Hamlin 'Clash of the Titans'. Zeus places him in safety, he gives him the exact tools he will need: Sword that can cut through anything, Mirrored Shield, Helmet of Invisibility, Mechanical Bird (because Athena won't give up her real one), Bridle to Harness Pegasus... those are real Deux Ex Machina... everything was unattainable and beyond his mortal capacity and he would have lost without them.

Quick question about the rules: if Durkon casts Restoration on himself, does he get his high-level spells back and can cast his Holy Word again?

In that case, it doesn't really make much sense to use Enervation on him, does it? Nale could only hope that Durkon doesn't have Restoration prepared ...

Oh, wait, I see it now: casting Restoration apparently takes three rounds, so it isn't a quick counter. OK. (Answered my own question, but perhaps others are wondering, too.)

Not too sure about it myself, but the rules seem to say Durkon would get back the spell.

Yes, officially, if he is restored, he will regain all lost spell uses, but still will be limited to what was prepared or heals of the same levels.

Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

MARK TWAIN!!! Or maybe a spell that instantly lets you know how deep water is and how high a mast is so you know if you can climb to the top of the mast to survive if the ship sinks? Oh wait, you said fathom... *rimshot* I think that pun was a sinker... it ended up in the Holey Word: Marianas Trench.

[pendell]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?

That's not a comment on the storytelling. I'm assuming Nale had a reason that made sense to him, at any rate. I just don't know what it is.

Or has Nale decided to go Batman and have one of everything on a utility belt for any possible situation?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?

That's not a comment on the storytelling. I'm assuming Nale had a reason that made sense to him, at any rate. I just don't know what it is.

Or has Nale decided to go Batman and have one of everything on a utility belt for any possible situation?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Because he's EVIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLL!!! Most likely because they tend to not fight together, but work separately, and being slightly jealous of her awesome power he got a wand to do what she can. In addition he can augment her uses by using it himself on the same person, and thereby rapidly drain a foe into no levels, killing them and making them a undead of whom Sabine or he can probably take control.

[FujinAkari]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

Because he didn't have anyone recruited to counter Durkon and sending Sabine into melee against a giant dwarf is a -terrible- idea.

[Raddish]

Obviously because of the good old scout motto: Be Prepared.

[FujinAkari]

This is a bit of a throwback, but out of curiosity...


Every couple of strips I see big discussions of what Deus Ex Machina actually means, and then people -keep- misusing it... why? O.o

[Snails]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

Because when it works well , it will work even better because of Sabine. Of course, it is likely to not work very well, if at all.

Such would be irresistible to a mind of Nale's caliber.

[Valley]

Wait....how can his accent screw it up? He has talked to them before..surly they have some kind of translator or something?

[rewinn]

Also, "Mast Depth Word", that's a spell I just can't fathom. :)

This rather obscure spell for determining the vertical location of your magically powered submarine's "mast" (what some call the conning tower) is actually very useful when navigating stealthily. It is therefore always whispered.

[Shoelessgdowar]

My bet is still the same: Durkon goes to get Malack's help, who does not turn out to have some convoluted reason to not wipe the floor with the linear guild.

I'm not trying to argue, because I'm slightly confused by your wording, so I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning and this ends up being an agreement with your statement.

If you means that Malack would need some convoluted reason to wipe the floor with the linear guild, then I will point out that Nale killed three of Malack's children, and that has been clearly established since strip #724 , with the animosity being displayed indirectly all the way back in strip #715 (Still love the description of Z, the fact it lists Yikyik who at that point had been deceased for 652 Strips or roughly 90+% of the strip existence both then and now, and a side note it gives us Elan and Nale's height and last known weight) and directly in Strip #718... so there is no way that his reasons would be contrived or convoluted.

If you were saying that it is perfectly logical for Durkon to go to Malack and then Malack has a perfectly good reason (ie. not convoluted) to wipe the floor with the LG, then I agree and apologize for this post beyond the fact it gives great references for people to refer to... Elan and Nale are 5'11" and were 180lbs when Nale's wanted poster was commissioned, though both may be buffer and heavier due to fat weighing less than their manly muscles now make them.