OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread

[Mutant Sheep]

Wow, I never expected to win an argument on the internet.

I've never seen it happen before. Its so strange!

Good stance, wiser than ThePhantasm

I WOULD take offense at this because I think the Phantasm is awesome, but it's the Giant. Of course he knows more about his own comic than the Phantasm. Also, he writes stories and knows from experience what these things are from years of us forumites tearing apart everything he writes.

How come everytime someone has a discussion and/or expresses criticism about something, a few shortsighted people will always rush and label it as flame/trolling?

Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.

Keep such disrespectful comments to yourself, they're not needed.

This makes me sad. (You were kinda insulting to the Phantasm too...)

[raymundo]

I'm not trying to argue, because I'm slightly confused by your wording, so I apologize if I misunderstand your meaning and this ends up being an agreement with your statement.

[..]

I'm quite sure he meant Durkon going to Malak, who then has some odd reason to not help him out against the LG,. Why would he say that? Because every time one of the heroes got the upper hand in the last strips, something unfortunate happened, negating the advantage. "Convoluted" is his word of choice to phrase his dislike of these twists.

[Gwynfrid]

Treasure this moment Rich. It's something to tell your grandkids about!

I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.

That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.

That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.

[One Skunk Todd]

Or maybe a spell that instantly lets you know how deep water is and how high a mast is so you know if you can climb to the top of the mast to survive if the ship sinks?

Truly it is a "knot"ty problem. Very likely out of my "league". :p

This rather obscure spell for determining the vertical location of your magically powered submarine's "mast" (what some call the conning tower) is actually very useful when navigating stealthily. It is therefore always whispered.

That sounds rather stern, still, I bow to your arcane knowledge although I'm sure others might have different drafts of the spell. I imagine they'll beam them to us soon.

[Mantine]

I WOULD take offense at this because I think the Phantasm is awesome, but it's the Giant. Of course he knows more about his own comic than the Phantasm.

Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.

Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.

Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.

I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.

That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.

That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.

I must say, I've been kind of waiting for this.
There's no "win" or "lose" in an argument, just two different positions, of which sometimes one proves to be stronger than the other. That's it.
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

/typo fix'in

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.
The "rebalancing wand" DOES exist, it's the reason behind its existance that convinced me out of my initial "what a lame DE" impression.
I still believe the wand to be a tad bit convenient, just not to the point of being a deus ex.

[Shoelessgdowar]

Truly it is a "knot"ty problem. Very likely out of my "league". :p



That sounds rather stern, still, I bow to your arcane knowledge although I'm sure others might have different drafts of the spell. I imagine they'll beam them to us soon.

Buoy, there must be something wrong with your hippocampus, you're a little dingy if you think you can coral me into letting you broadside me with puns. I will seas victory from the depths of defeat. You're beating a dead seahorse if you think I'll be drawn in by some siryn's call to battle. I can pier into the mists and sea you're in murky waters... aw frigate, I should just dock you points for shallow humor, you're chasing a white whale if you think I can just sail such watered down wit like ice in the desert. You've run aground, you're washed up, I'm gunna make you my beach, shell I continue or will you run up the white flag? I have avast skill and I cannon will blow you out of the water. Mark my words, Island more shots from my exposition then you can from your riggings, and wheel deck you even when I'm board.

I think I went a little overboard with this

Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.


Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.


I must say, I've been kind of waiting for this.
There's no "win" or "lose" in an argument, just two different positions, of which sometimes one proves to be stronger than the other. That's it.
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

/typo fix'in

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.
The "rebalancing wand" DOES exist, it's the reason behind its existance that convinced me out of my initial "what a lame DE" impression.
I still believe the wand to be a tad bit convenient, just not to the point of being a deus ex.

I believe the Deux Ex argument is a Schroedinger's Cat... it was dead before it was ever started, but we don't know that until we observe and acknowledge that, but paradoxically when we observe it we only keep it alive longer to not be dead.

[One Skunk Todd]

Buoy, there must be something wrong with your hippocampus, you're a little dingy if you think you can coral me into letting you broadside me with puns. I will seas victory from the depths of defeat. You're beating a dead seahorse if you think I'll be drawn in by some siryn's call to battle. I can pier into the mists and sea you're in murky waters... aw frigate, I should just dock you points for shallow humor, you're chasing a white whale if you think I can just sail such watered down wit like ice in the desert. You've run aground, you're washed up, I'm gunna make you my beach, shell I continue or will you run up the white flag? I have avast skill and I cannon will blow you out of the water. Mark my words, Island more shots from my exposition then you can from your riggings, and wheel deck you even when I'm board.

I think I went a little overboard with this

You've swamped me with your surfeit of puns. I'm too tongue-tide to continue. To reef-phrase, you've beached me. :)

[Gusion]

Per somebody's question... if we're going by D&D/SRD 3.5 rules than...

No, if Durkon dispels his negative levels (via Restoration) he does not automatically get the higher level spell back. Once lost via a level drain he must pray for the spell again. The relevant SRD language here is that Durkon's spell is gone "as if he had cast his highest-level."

The only exception I've seen to this is some DMs will allow for the restored slot to be used the same day on a spontaneously cast of a cure spell. Strictly speaking this is also against the rules as a spontaneous cast is "in place of a prepared spell" and the restored cleric doesn't have any in the spell slots that were restored..

Also, clerics can indeed perform independent research on spells according to SRD.

[Mutant Sheep]

Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.

Ah, O.K. Silly post times and edit-times confuse and confound me.

Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.

Most people weren't around centuries ago, and first learned of the term from TvTropes. Some people, (myself included, sadly) just get annoyed when seeing Words Like This, since instead of making a point and backing it up with words, alot people just say a phrase they learned from TvTropes and walk away. (You did not do this though, awesomely, I'm just saying that seeing Words Like This gets me upset at TvTropes for accidentally creating shorthand for real arguments, and gets me all hostile at the person who uses them.)(I bet some old dead Greek dude thought of writing SOMETHING similar to TvTropes long ago though... :P)

[Gwynfrid]

With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.

"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.

You know what, your first point here convinces me that your second one has merit. "Completely" in my post was excess rhetoric.

[J's]

I contend that his usage of a newer term does not negate its value, but instead validates its usage as a more appropriate delineation for good and evil beings being helped by a positive or negative powerful entity. True the original meaning of Deux Ex Machina did not make such a delineation, but in truth the term originally only related to the protagonists being saved at the last moment and frequently was literally a pulley machine acting as the hand of Odin or Zeus saving them with no real valid explanation other then it was the will of the supreme being. The term comes from Ancient Theatre and was actually a machine, so technically Deux Ex Machina was ONLY for good because it was always used for the protagonist/heroes or innocents and neutrals.

So Medea was good? Sure she was a protagonist, but she did kill her own children and leave them for their father to find. I doubt that chariot of a god that carried her back to her father's court had limited room so she had the option of taking them with her.
Frankly after reading some of the Greek plays I don't think anyone qualifies as good in them. They were examples of the basest human urges unchecked. Anti-hero is the closest modern literary term for them, but I prefer *******.

[J's]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?


Respectfully,

Brian P.

The wand seems to be ranged, Sabine's drain is touch based.

[Holy_Knight]

So Medea was good? Sure she was a protagonist, but she did kill her own children and leave them for their father to find. I doubt that chariot of a god that carried her back to her father's court had limited room so she had the option of taking them with her.
Frankly after reading some of the Greek plays I don't think anyone qualifies as good in them. They were examples of the basest human urges unchecked. Anti-hero is the closest modern literary term for them, but I prefer *******.

Although he does give into temptation briefly, Neoptolemus was a pretty good guy in "Philoctetes".

[Querzis]

Question.

Why would Nale invest in a wand of enervation?

After all, he has a member of the party already that gets it for free. Why spend additional money to buy a limited-use item that does nothing Sabine can't do?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Its the other way around. He got a wand of enervation because his girlfriend can do the exact same thing. Level drain stacks you know, it make an awesome combo together. Most fighter-type wont get that annoyed by one energy drain but two in combo would still be effective and, while energy drain is always a pain for any spellcaster, only one energy drain could very well not even make them lose all their highest level slot. Two? Definitly. Beside, Sabine doesnt seems to be any good for anything else then level-draining, she actually go down real fast when someone get pass her Dr and its her main attack but level draining might not be permanent unless you reach zero so you could say that Nale is being a helpful boyfriend by augmenting his girlfriend strength.

Now of course, if someone does get a spell to protect them from level-draining then it make both his wand and Succubus level-draining ability useless...but as I said, Sabine is pretty much only good at level-draining so if they're fighting an enemy thats immune to it, then fleeing is the best option anyway since Sabine would be useless in such a fight.

Edit: Yeah and its also ranged so thats a plus.

[Killer Angel]

Sorry Giant, I actually want to argue the fact Athena is even really a Deux Ex herself...

Of course She's not a Deus. She would be a Goddess.

No, it was more like my way of acknowledging the prevailing popular opinion about D&D game balance--that single-class spellcasters are ultra-powerful compared to other characters--and then saying that game balance doesn't matter in my story, that Durkon isn't going to to just walk all over Nale because he's a cleric.

So I was communicating the way I expected the audience would perceive it, then I began the process of abolishing that perception.

...and this is even more true, for other jokes based around popular opinions specifically established in the Playground...

[The Succubus]

The wand seems to be ranged, Sabine's drain is touch based.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. As someone pointed out earlier, sending Sabine in solo to go toe to toe with Durkon is a recipe for a dead succubus.

Why are people finding it so strange that the Linear Guild might actually have made preparations prior to engaging? They knew the Order was poking around, they knew from previous experience what they would be up against. Would a player not have bought some magic items to help out in a fight against an expected BBEG? To re-iterate one of my earlier points - the Linear Guild are Evil, not stupid.

[Killer Angel]

the Linear Guild are Evil, not stupid.

We're not counting Thog, right?

But yeah, jokes apart, I agree.

[ThePhantasm]

the Linear Guild are Nale is Evil, not stupid.

Might be more accurate...

[writinwater]

Narrativium at work. (Of which the Rule of Cool and Murphy's Law are sub-sections.)

Or, if we want to be rules-lawyerish about it: maybe Sabine wears a belt (or other item) of giant strength. As long as it's not a chastity-belt...

Belt of Giant Strength provide a +4 bonus to strength.... not a whopping +11 or more. Chalk me up for one, too, if they upped the specifications^^

I just find it very jarring in a comic which rests so many of its best puns/gags on the obvious absurdity of the "by the letter of the E3.5 rules" attitude (say like the "V vs Drow-mage" fight ) and their often counter-intuitive arbitrariness (as with Durkon in the last - #806 - strip).
It's the particular charm of the OOTS.
But Sabine, who in all likelihood masses less than Elan or Nale, carrying them around like a handbag is... oh well, what benefit does it add to the story to break consistency here ? Everybody would be flabberghasted if she did it on the ground.

As for "narratively".... well, a good narrative requires solid crafting and some planning ahead, not some wriggling and sleight-of-hand changes to fundamental rules and the foundations of the universe to compensate for oversights. Say, like Nale levitating and Sabine dragging him around ? Less heavy handed, same effect ?

Because those fundamental changes are what's breaking the suspension of disbelief in any narrative. Speaking as a GM, that is. *shrug*

[factotum]

Sabine's wings are clearly too small to support her own weight anyway, so she flies by magic--I don't see it as being a major stretch that the same magic also allows her to carry someone else, especially since a wizard's Fly spell also works that way in OotS. Besides, it was established as long ago as strip #57 that Sabine could carry Nale--it would be a bit strange if she were to turn round now and say she couldn't do something that she's shown herself to be capable of numerous times in the past.

[mrmcfatty]

strip #715

im unsure if this has been brought up before but considering their knowledge of the LG the EoB would most likely be correct in stating that sabine is a demon, maybe haley somehow looked at that poster close enough to know which arrows and thus when she does get back into the fight she can fire two or more arrows of the same kind instead of different ones which would make a vast difference in the fight between them.

[Threadnaught]

I'm sorry, but how is Saruman being able to destroy the wall of Helm's Deep a Deus Ex Machina?

It was part of his whole strategy, his forces would carry the bombs he designed and built to the weakest part of the wall and blow it up. The heroes even knew something bad would happen if Saruman's Urukhai were able to get the torch to the bombs, Legolas killed the torchbearer in both book and movie, but it was too late to stop the boom bassa boom.

It was mentioned the he was going to attack the wall's one weakness, he had new technology, he even built the army specifically to destroy Helm's Deep and any occupied force. Now think about the whole thing in D&D terms, or how about OotS terms? Attacking Helm's Deep without a way to take advantage of it's one weakness (the drain), is like Roy (a Fighter) without a weapon, or Varsuvius (a Wizard) without any spells, or even a Dashing Swordsman (Elan) without a voice. Against a level appropriate encounter designed for them at full power.


Let me just see if I can nail the way some people here think. So if a character talks endlessly about an ability he can use, eventually uses it to even the playing field at some point when it looks like they're losing, it's a Deus Ex Machina?

But when a magic pixie god dragon appears from nowhere and gives another character the sword of magically winning anything they use the sword for, it's not?


Do you people pray to a glorified petting zoo?

[137beth]

And we are back, with Thor's inability to maintain Durkon's spells!

[writinwater]

Sabine's wings are clearly too small to support her own weight anyway, so she flies by magic--I don't see it as being a major stretch that the same magic also allows her to carry someone else, especially since a wizard's Fly spell also works that way in OotS.

A succubus' flight has always been non-magical according to the SRD^^ Besides - if we went by artistic rendering (no disrespect intended) , please, we are talking the Order of the STICK here, aren't we ? Stick-figures ? By all rights, they should topple over any second ! OMG, we can only conclude they must be airheads or worse, inflated-gasbags-for-heads !

Honestly, I don't really care for rules-lawyering - I just intended to point out the inconsistency of "(by) the SRD rules" only working against the OOTS, but very rarely, if ever, in their favour.

[faustin]

The next thing you may question should be how can the Empress fly by herself?

[Threadnaught]

The next thing you may question should be how can the Empress fly by herself?

Maybe she ate a blimp?


That is what the strip is called afterall.

[pendell]

I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.

That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.

That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.

I concur that Mantine deserves credit for being willing to admit to error; it is a rare thing on the internet.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[sims796]

Don't be utterly ridiculous. The fact that Nale owns a relatively inexpensive magic item is not even remotely surprising or unexpected, given his level, wealth, and the fact that last time we saw him, he said he was going to shop for magic items. (Second to last panel.)

How exactly do you expect me to foreshadow each and every magic item that they have? Did you want me to dedicate an entire strip to Nale standing around saying, "Look at my new wand!"?

Come on. Surprises are not Deus (or Diabolous) Ex Machinas, they're surprises. Nothing more or less. If you want to know every little thing that is going to happen before it happens, go read another comic.

This, I really gotta agree with. It wasn't even handled poorly. Given what we already know about Nale, him having a wand for this purpose is totally in character for him. Besides, said wand is is useful all around (Nale just had the good fortune of using it on Durkon). Even if we didn't know much of him, we haven't seen him in a while, and we have no idea whata tricks this group has up their sleeves. For that matter, you could call V having Shrink Item a Deus ex. What kind of person would carry that around? But you can assume he picked it up on his travels (ignoring the fact that he speciffically went to a magic shop).

I think the issue here is that we want to see the Linear Guild curb stomped. Or at least I do. And that's not much of a issue at all.

EDIT:Oh, I didn't realize there was a debate about the issue, I skipped over all that. Not trying to reopen old wounds or anything like that.

[Scrynor]

I actually think shrink item is one of the most fun and interesting spells in the game. I always carry it. It just makes for so many interesting DM rulings.

Look, a fallen 16-foot long stone pillar! I'll turn it into a one foot leather rod that I can roll down a hill at a charging band of orcs and restore to its full size on command.

Ooh, a boulder. I'll make that into a sling stone and restore it to full size mid-flight.

I'm in prison? I'll try shrinking the lock or gate!

Grappled? I guess it's worth provoking a shot to shrink the breastplate this guy is wearing...

Sure, all of these things can range from useless to devastatingly effective depending on how your DM is feeling but that's half the fun!

[sims796]

I actually think shrink item is one of the most fun and interesting spells in the game. I always carry it. It just makes for so many interesting DM rulings.

Look, a fallen 16-foot long stone pillar! I'll turn it into a one foot leather rod that I can roll down a hill at a charging band of orcs and restore to its full size on command.

Ooh, a boulder. I'll make that into a sling stone and restore it to full size mid-flight.

I'm in prison? I'll try shrinking the lock or gate!

Grappled? I guess it's worth provoking a shot to shrink the breastplate this guy is wearing...

Sure, all of these things can range from useless to devastatingly effective depending on how your DM is feeling but that's half the fun!

That is a pretty good point.