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2011-09-20, 07:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
I've never seen it happen before. Its so strange!
I WOULD take offense at this because I think the Phantasm is awesome, but it's the Giant. Of course he knows more about his own comic than the Phantasm. Also, he writes stories and knows from experience what these things are from years of us forumites tearing apart everything he writes.
Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.
Keep such disrespectful comments to yourself, they're not needed.Last edited by Mutant Sheep; 2011-09-20 at 09:38 PM.
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2011-09-20, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
I'm quite sure he meant Durkon going to Malak, who then has some odd reason to not help him out against the LG,. Why would he say that? Because every time one of the heroes got the upper hand in the last strips, something unfortunate happened, negating the advantage. "Convoluted" is his word of choice to phrase his dislike of these twists.
Last edited by raymundo; 2011-09-20 at 07:44 PM.
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2011-09-20, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
I am just as amazed as everyone else at seeing such a moment happen.
That said, I would give an Internet to Mantine before I give it to the Giant. Mantine did something even more incredible than winning an argument on the Internet: He admitted to having been convinced. I mean, he was completely wrong, he was alone in his opinion, he strongly (stubbornly, in fact) defended it over the course of multiple posts, he read the opposing points thoroughly, then honestly recognized that the Giant was right.
That is truly exceptional. Seriously, congrats.Last edited by Gwynfrid; 2011-09-20 at 07:43 PM.
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2011-09-20, 08:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Maryland
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Truly it is a "knot"ty problem. Very likely out of my "league". :p
That sounds rather stern, still, I bow to your arcane knowledge although I'm sure others might have different drafts of the spell. I imagine they'll beam them to us soon."That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2011-09-20, 08:14 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Actually, I was referring to Pendell's wiseness "no point re-lighting the flames of a finished discussion", which in my opinion was very smart.
Because the internet has alot of trolls. Even here, we have come to expect some. Also, because people crying Dues Ex Machina is annoying, and annoys many people who are tired of TvTropes ruling the internet.
I must say, I've been kind of waiting for this.
There's no "win" or "lose" in an argument, just two different positions, of which sometimes one proves to be stronger than the other. That's it.
With the "I gotta win" mentality you'll never actually get anything.
/typo fix'in
"Completely wrong" is a bit strong though.
The "rebalancing wand" DOES exist, it's the reason behind its existance that convinced me out of my initial "what a lame DE" impression.
I still believe the wand to be a tad bit convenient, just not to the point of being a deus ex.Last edited by Mantine; 2011-09-20 at 08:26 PM.
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2011-09-20, 08:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Buoy, there must be something wrong with your hippocampus, you're a little dingy if you think you can coral me into letting you broadside me with puns. I will seas victory from the depths of defeat. You're beating a dead seahorse if you think I'll be drawn in by some siryn's call to battle. I can pier into the mists and sea you're in murky waters... aw frigate, I should just dock you points for shallow humor, you're chasing a white whale if you think I can just sail such watered down wit like ice in the desert. You've run aground, you're washed up, I'm gunna make you my beach, shell I continue or will you run up the white flag? I have avast skill and I cannon will blow you out of the water. Mark my words, Island more shots from my exposition then you can from your riggings, and wheel deck you even when I'm board.
I think I went a little overboard with this
I believe the Deux Ex argument is a Schroedinger's Cat... it was dead before it was ever started, but we don't know that until we observe and acknowledge that, but paradoxically when we observe it we only keep it alive longer to not be dead.Last edited by Shoelessgdowar; 2011-09-20 at 08:44 PM. Reason: combining posts so I'm no longer double posting
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2011-09-20, 08:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2007
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- Maryland
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
"That's not right, that's not even wrong."
"This is not an idea to be tossed aside lightly, it should be thrown with great force."
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2011-09-20, 09:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Per somebody's question... if we're going by D&D/SRD 3.5 rules than...
No, if Durkon dispels his negative levels (via Restoration) he does not automatically get the higher level spell back. Once lost via a level drain he must pray for the spell again. The relevant SRD language here is that Durkon's spell is gone "as if he had cast his highest-level."
The only exception I've seen to this is some DMs will allow for the restored slot to be used the same day on a spontaneously cast of a cure spell. Strictly speaking this is also against the rules as a spontaneous cast is "in place of a prepared spell" and the restored cleric doesn't have any in the spell slots that were restored..
Also, clerics can indeed perform independent research on spells according to SRD.
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2011-09-20, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Ah, O.K. Silly post times and edit-times confuse and confound me.
Deus Ex Machina's existed centuries before anyone even thought about creating Tvtropes, and even then this is not an excuse to insult a discussion everyone took a civilized part of.Last edited by Mutant Sheep; 2011-09-20 at 09:57 PM. Reason: Blah I feel stupids. As usual!
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2011-09-20, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Ontario
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
DM in Mummy's Mask I, II, III | Keshkaru and Ozkrak in Extinction Curse | Marzena in Age of Worms | Elrembriel in Wrath of the Righteous | Gurmok in Nightmare in Katapesh | DM in Catacombs of Ravenloft Avatar courtesy of Neoseph7
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2011-09-20, 11:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
So Medea was good? Sure she was a protagonist, but she did kill her own children and leave them for their father to find. I doubt that chariot of a god that carried her back to her father's court had limited room so she had the option of taking them with her.
Frankly after reading some of the Greek plays I don't think anyone qualifies as good in them. They were examples of the basest human urges unchecked. Anti-hero is the closest modern literary term for them, but I prefer *******.
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2011-09-20, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2008
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2011-09-21, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-21, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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- probably somewhere in the universe...
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Its the other way around. He got a wand of enervation because his girlfriend can do the exact same thing. Level drain stacks you know, it make an awesome combo together. Most fighter-type wont get that annoyed by one energy drain but two in combo would still be effective and, while energy drain is always a pain for any spellcaster, only one energy drain could very well not even make them lose all their highest level slot. Two? Definitly. Beside, Sabine doesnt seems to be any good for anything else then level-draining, she actually go down real fast when someone get pass her Dr and its her main attack but level draining might not be permanent unless you reach zero so you could say that Nale is being a helpful boyfriend by augmenting his girlfriend strength.
Now of course, if someone does get a spell to protect them from level-draining then it make both his wand and Succubus level-draining ability useless...but as I said, Sabine is pretty much only good at level-draining so if they're fighting an enemy thats immune to it, then fleeing is the best option anyway since Sabine would be useless in such a fight.
Edit: Yeah and its also ranged so thats a plus.Last edited by Querzis; 2011-09-21 at 12:43 AM.
In memory of lord Shojo
Avatar by Miss Nobody
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2011-09-21, 02:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Killer Angel; 2011-09-21 at 02:42 AM.
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2011-09-21, 03:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. As someone pointed out earlier, sending Sabine in solo to go toe to toe with Durkon is a recipe for a dead succubus.
Why are people finding it so strange that the Linear Guild might actually have made preparations prior to engaging? They knew the Order was poking around, they knew from previous experience what they would be up against. Would a player not have bought some magic items to help out in a fight against an expected BBEG? To re-iterate one of my earlier points - the Linear Guild are Evil, not stupid.
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2011-09-21, 04:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2011-09-21, 05:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Gotham City
"And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine
The Index of the Giant's Comments | Thanks, Bradakhan, for the avatar!
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2011-09-21, 06:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Belt of Giant Strength provide a +4 bonus to strength.... not a whopping +11 or more. Chalk me up for one, too, if they upped the specifications^^
I just find it very jarring in a comic which rests so many of its best puns/gags on the obvious absurdity of the "by the letter of the E3.5 rules" attitude (say like the "V vs Drow-mage" fight ) and their often counter-intuitive arbitrariness (as with Durkon in the last - #806 - strip).
It's the particular charm of the OOTS.
But Sabine, who in all likelihood masses less than Elan or Nale, carrying them around like a handbag is... oh well, what benefit does it add to the story to break consistency here ? Everybody would be flabberghasted if she did it on the ground.
As for "narratively".... well, a good narrative requires solid crafting and some planning ahead, not some wriggling and sleight-of-hand changes to fundamental rules and the foundations of the universe to compensate for oversights. Say, like Nale levitating and Sabine dragging him around ? Less heavy handed, same effect ?
Because those fundamental changes are what's breaking the suspension of disbelief in any narrative. Speaking as a GM, that is. *shrug*Last edited by writinwater; 2011-09-21 at 06:38 AM.
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2011-09-21, 06:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
Sabine's wings are clearly too small to support her own weight anyway, so she flies by magic--I don't see it as being a major stretch that the same magic also allows her to carry someone else, especially since a wizard's Fly spell also works that way in OotS. Besides, it was established as long ago as strip #57 that Sabine could carry Nale--it would be a bit strange if she were to turn round now and say she couldn't do something that she's shown herself to be capable of numerous times in the past.
Last edited by factotum; 2011-09-21 at 06:46 AM.
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2011-09-21, 06:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
im unsure if this has been brought up before but considering their knowledge of the LG the EoB would most likely be correct in stating that sabine is a demon, maybe haley somehow looked at that poster close enough to know which arrows and thus when she does get back into the fight she can fire two or more arrows of the same kind instead of different ones which would make a vast difference in the fight between them.
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2011-09-21, 07:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
I'm sorry, but how is Saruman being able to destroy the wall of Helm's Deep a Deus Ex Machina?
It was part of his whole strategy, his forces would carry the bombs he designed and built to the weakest part of the wall and blow it up. The heroes even knew something bad would happen if Saruman's Urukhai were able to get the torch to the bombs, Legolas killed the torchbearer in both book and movie, but it was too late to stop the boom bassa boom.
It was mentioned the he was going to attack the wall's one weakness, he had new technology, he even built the army specifically to destroy Helm's Deep and any occupied force. Now think about the whole thing in D&D terms, or how about OotS terms? Attacking Helm's Deep without a way to take advantage of it's one weakness (the drain), is like Roy (a Fighter) without a weapon, or Varsuvius (a Wizard) without any spells, or even a Dashing Swordsman (Elan) without a voice. Against a level appropriate encounter designed for them at full power.
Let me just see if I can nail the way some people here think. So if a character talks endlessly about an ability he can use, eventually uses it to even the playing field at some point when it looks like they're losing, it's a Deus Ex Machina?
But when a magic pixie god dragon appears from nowhere and gives another character the sword of magically winning anything they use the sword for, it's not?
Do you people pray to a glorified petting zoo?Last edited by Threadnaught; 2011-09-21 at 07:42 AM.
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2011-09-21, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2009
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
And we are back, with Thor's inability to maintain Durkon's spells!
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2011-09-21, 07:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
A succubus' flight has always been non-magical according to the SRD^^ Besides - if we went by artistic rendering (no disrespect intended) , please, we are talking the Order of the STICK here, aren't we ? Stick-figures ? By all rights, they should topple over any second ! OMG, we can only conclude they must be airheads or worse, inflated-gasbags-for-heads !
Honestly, I don't really care for rules-lawyering - I just intended to point out the inconsistency of "(by) the SRD rules" only working against the OOTS, but very rarely, if ever, in their favour.
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2011-09-21, 07:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2010
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
The next thing you may question should be how can the Empress fly by herself?
Last edited by faustin; 2011-09-21 at 07:38 AM.
""Jeez, this dress! i look like a dominatrix""
(self-loathing): ""Actually , you look like a sorceress or something""
""Hey, no need to get cruel""
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2011-09-21, 07:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
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2011-09-21, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2011-09-21, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
This, I really gotta agree with. It wasn't even handled poorly. Given what we already know about Nale, him having a wand for this purpose is totally in character for him. Besides, said wand is is useful all around (Nale just had the good fortune of using it on Durkon). Even if we didn't know much of him, we haven't seen him in a while, and we have no idea whata tricks this group has up their sleeves. For that matter, you could call V having Shrink Item a Deus ex. What kind of person would carry that around? But you can assume he picked it up on his travels (ignoring the fact that he speciffically went to a magic shop).
I think the issue here is that we want to see the Linear Guild curb stomped. Or at least I do. And that's not much of a issue at all.
EDIT:Oh, I didn't realize there was a debate about the issue, I skipped over all that. Not trying to reopen old wounds or anything like that.Last edited by sims796; 2011-09-21 at 09:02 AM.
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2011-09-21, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2011
Re: OOTS #806 - The Discussion Thread
I actually think shrink item is one of the most fun and interesting spells in the game. I always carry it. It just makes for so many interesting DM rulings.
Look, a fallen 16-foot long stone pillar! I'll turn it into a one foot leather rod that I can roll down a hill at a charging band of orcs and restore to its full size on command.
Ooh, a boulder. I'll make that into a sling stone and restore it to full size mid-flight.
I'm in prison? I'll try shrinking the lock or gate!
Grappled? I guess it's worth provoking a shot to shrink the breastplate this guy is wearing...
Sure, all of these things can range from useless to devastatingly effective depending on how your DM is feeling but that's half the fun!
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2011-09-21, 10:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2011