Jack Of All Trades (3.5 Base Class, PEACH!)

[Demidos]

And can someone tell me what MAD actually stands for? I see it all over these forums. We need a frackin' stickied forum dictionary thread...

Multiple Ability Dependent
as compared to
Single ability dependent (SAD)



As in Monk uses str, dex, con, wis...cha? I think? --> Mad
Druid cares only about Wis --> SAD



EDIT: And thus, my first time being swordsaged Lol.

[PEACH]

I didn't ask you to overhaul the class for me; that would be a disservice to you. Thank you for at least being honest about the class (and polite at the same time). May I at least ask you why you think copying abilities is poor conceptually?

Simple: It's *really hard to balance*. Think about it; you have to develop a catch all system that prevents grabbing the "best" through dipping and wording things properly to prevent oddities (even Factotum has some issues on that front), you can't allow certain abilities, it makes classes that actually specialize feel left out and can lead to situations where you are (near) strictly better by emulating the strong points of a class and shoring up its weaknesses, and it adds in a holy hell of a lot of power creep as you add in more classes to the setting.

And for all that work, you don't actually truly add anything to the design space of the game; you've just got abilities that already exist. Using things that already exist isn't bad, per se, but this causes a lot of strange interactions, wording issues, and balance issues even in the best case, and doing that just to provide a bunch of "toned down" versions of abilities that already exist to one guy seems needlessly difficult; you're trying to balance one guy around the entirety of everything he can copy, instead of balancing actual granted abilities. I wouldn't argue with being able to snag a couple abilities (temporarily, perhaps) as a capstone on this class, but as the main and only feature it just feels like it invites more problems than it solves.

[Noctis Vigil]

Heh. Bonus feats from any list, spells from any spell list...and the ability to copy class features...

Something tells me you need to carefully reread page 77 of your copy of Unearthed Arcana (The Spellcaster). Is that what you're looking for?

Erm. Sort of? He gets too many spells per day and not enough spells known, though. I intend for him to have 3 spells of each level spell he can cast per day (Wizard casting -1). This seriously limits his spell-slinging. If it's still too high, I'll drop it to 2 per level per day. The goal is to make him be able to fill the Wizard or Cleric's spot in a pinch, or step into the Rogue's shoes, or the Fighter's; looking back on it now, I realize I made him a little too good. He kind of needs to be more general, and taking specific abilities doesn't let me do that, it just lets you make a perfect character. Also, he doesn't have either divine or arcane, he has both. If the spell you know is drawn from the arcane list, it's cast with Int. If divine, it's cast with Wis. If it's on both lists, you pick which list it's from when learned, and it can never be changed. I think I'll add that all his spells suffer from spell failure chance, though. It's a good starting point, though. I hadn't thought of it, thanks! (PS: sorry for rambling, it's how I think things through)

PEACH, thank you for your answer; I'll take it into account as I work on the class more. I still intend to give him a couple of other class's abilities, but not as many, and from a much more controlled list.

[NeoSeraphi]

Erm. Sort of? He gets too many spells per day and not enough spells known, though. I intend for him to have 3 spells of each level spell he can cast per day (Wizard casting -1). This seriously limits his spell-slinging. If it's still too high, I'll drop it to 2 per level per day. The goal is to make him be able to fill the Wizard or Cleric's spot in a pinch, or step into the Rogue's shoes, or the Fighter's; looking back on it now, I realize I made him a little too good. He kind of needs to be more general, and taking specific abilities doesn't let me do that, it just lets you make a perfect character. Also, he doesn't have either divine or arcane, he has both. If the spell you know is drawn from the arcane list, it's cast with Int. If divine, it's cast with Wis. If it's on both lists, you pick which list it's from when learned, and it can never be changed. I think I'll add that all his spells suffer from spell failure chance, though. It's a good starting point, though. I hadn't thought of it, thanks! (PS: sorry for rambling, it's how I think things through)

Sure, no problem. Though if you want to make the class balanced, it should be Cha-based arcane casting, not Int-based. Int is a much more useful stat to specialize in than Cha, and it's one of the many many reasons that wizards are superior to sorcerers.

Also, don't forget to include a section on divine focuses. Too many divine caster homebrew classes forget to discuss it, and some of the most powerful spells on the cleric and druid spell lists have divine focuses.

I suggest you take a look at the Chameleon prestige class as well, from Races of Destiny. It is the ultimate jack-of-all-trades class, and it might help you get a few ideas.

[Noctis Vigil]

Ooo, good idea on the Cha thing. So bonus spells based on Int and arcane spells cast from Cha; this should let me get away with only 2 spells of each level per day, as he'll be aiming for high Int for skills anyways. I want this guy to have a good reason to put points into every single one of his stats: Str gives him melee combat (plus Jump and Climb skill stuff), Dex gets him ranged combat (plus Balance and Tumble skill stuff), Con gets him HP and Concentration for his spells, Int gets bonus spells (and skills), Wis gets good divine spells (and all the fun Spot and Listen and Heal skill stuff), and Cha gets good arcane spells (as well as Diplomacy and Bluff and UMD skill stuff).

I seem to recall being pointed to the Chameleon and finding it very inelegant, though I may be thinking of something else and will look again.

[NeoSeraphi]

Ooo, good idea on the Cha thing. So bonus spells based on Int and arcane spells cast from Cha; this should let me get away with only 2 spells of each level per day, as he'll be aiming for high Int for skills anyways. I want this guy to have a good reason to put points into every single one of his stats: Str gives him melee combat (plus Jump and Climb skill stuff), Dex gets him ranged combat (plus Balance and Tumble skill stuff), Con gets him HP and Concentration for his spells, Int gets bonus spells (and skills), Wis gets good divine spells (and all the fun Spot and Listen and Heal skill stuff), and Cha gets good arcane spells (as well as Diplomacy and Bluff and UMD skill stuff).

If the class can cast spells from any list, it need not make Use Magic Device checks to use...any item, unless that item requires a specific race or alignment that the class does not have. (If you have wish on your spell list and you're at least 17th level, you can use a scroll of wish with no check at all, whether you know the spell or not)


By the way, what you are describing is the ultimate MAD class, and is unlikely to work out the way you hope. Unless the class has heavy armor proficiency and at least 3/4 BAB and d8 HD, it will not be seeing very much melee combat. Also, people tend to pick one type of combat and stick with it, so the build that employs both ranged and melee (while casting spells, no less) will be rather rare. So the idea of a class that needs both Strength and Dexterity is...difficult to imagine.

Then you said it was going to have Arcane Spell Failure. That means that there's no way most characters will want to go into melee, as they will simply be crushed underfoot.

Be forewarned, also, that learning spells from any list is what makes the archivist so freaking annoyingly overpowered. Heal is a 5th level adept spell, restoration is a 1st level paladin spell, holy sword (which grants you a +5 enhancement bonus, normally requiring at least a CL of 20 when casting greater magic weapon) as a 4th level spell, irresistible dance as a 6th level bard spell, charm monster as a 4th level bard spell, need I go on?

I seem to recall being pointed to the Chameleon and finding it very inelegant, though I may be thinking of something else and will look again.

Oh, don't worry, the chameleon is extremely inelegant. It's also just plain the jack-of-all-trades. It's like a wizard, in that it chooses what it wants to be good at at the start of the day and then it rocks that style until the end of the day (only with much less wiggle room)

[Noctis Vigil]

My idea was not a class that needed every stat, but a class that could get lots of use out of every stat, depending on particular build. Going arcane caster with this? Beef that Dex for ranged and Cha for the arcane casting. Going divine? Beef that Str for melee and Wis for the divine casting. And I think I will leave divine without spell failure; it makes one more aspect of the class to have to balance. And yes, I know that casting could get overpowered, but he also only knows like 7 spells of each spell level by the time he hits class level 20, whereas the Archivist has no real limit on spells known, IIRC, so he can't ever be a know everything ubercaster like the Archivist can. Plus, he still has to have seen the spell cast as that class's spell to learn it as that class's spell. So if he sees a Cleric cast Heal, he has to take it as a 6th level spell, because he's only seen it cast as a 6th level spell. All that on top of very limited spells per day should balance it out, in my opinion.