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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Things Rich said in books are brought into arguments on this forum regularly.

    They will be, whether they're listed in this thread or not, barring Rich making a rule against posting them. The only thing not having them in this thread will do, is make people citing them go on typing in the comment in question in from the book (as we always have done).
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    There is, however, a difference between citing a work and reproducing it. One is fair use, the other is plagiarism.

    [EDIT: I should clarify, I'm not discussing copyright law here, which is against forum rules... I'm talking traditional academic / research conventions.]
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2012-04-01 at 12:47 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Okay, very well, that still leaves the problem of how much of the commentaries we should post in this thread. I don't own any of the books, but I imagine that most of what is in them would be relevant for this thread, so wouldn't allowing them explode the size of the first post?
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  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Maybe you should run the book commentary question past the Giant himself? That's actually always seemed like a gray area for me. It's content people pay extra for, so it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that should be quoted extensively -- but on the other hand, it seems unfair to not allow people who've purchased the books to talk about it amongst themselves. There are also some things you would think aren't really meant to be secret at all, little things that are still powerful enough to kill threads and threads worth of debate in a single sentence of simple clarification. (e.g. No the planet inside the Snarl is not earth.)

    I'd go a, b, c, e, f.
    Last edited by B. Dandelion; 2012-04-01 at 02:06 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a, b, e, f -3 -4

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish View Post
    I think "immortalizing April Fools jokes" is outside the purpose of this index.
    I'm not even sure an announcement will remain accessible after it's removed, since it isn't a normal forum post.

    EDIT: Apparently it was a post and an announcement, the post of course is still accessible.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2012-04-02 at 11:06 AM.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a, b, c, e, f

    Not voting 'd' because one of the prominent reasons for referencing the Giant's quotes (and hence using this index) is to settle forum disputes, by clarifying what is canon and what isn't.

    I believe such disputes will be more amicably settled if posters have easy access to both of the Giant's opinions on a given topic- new and old.

    Instead of the discussion being along the lines of "I remember the Giant saying..." "But I clearly remember him saying somewhere else..." people can look up this index, check the dates on both comments and draw their own conclusions.
    Last edited by LuPuWei; 2012-04-02 at 06:37 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    That's 10 votes. Voting will remain open until April 7th at 11:59 PM, after that I'll tally it up.
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a, b, c, d, e, f -3, -4

    While I like how methodical you are being, this is ultimately your index and I think you should have some degree of veto power, without having some jackalope insisting "New Comic is Up" every strip and forcing it to a vote :)
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a, b, c, d, e, f

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a, b, c, e, f

    a 3 should be run by the Giant but I can't imagine him being comfortable with this thread transcribing sections from his commentaries, as they are mainly incentives to buy the books.

    Regarding rule d, I think LuPuWei has a point. It will make things easier, if all the relevant refuted quotes are included. It might make sense for them to be a subsection of the newest opinion clearly titled "obsolete opinion" or some such.
    Not if my index finger has anything to say about it. And, as it turned out, it had quite the stirring dissertation prepared on that very subject.

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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    I was just wondering, do we need to keep the comment about Orrin's daughter not being Haley? By now we should be able to figure it out from the comic without any input from the Giant.
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  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Yes, we need to keep it. Or some clever person will post, "So, how did Haley survive the Familicide?"
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiffet View Post
    I was just wondering, do we need to keep the comment about Orrin's daughter not being Haley? By now we should be able to figure it out from the comic without any input from the Giant.
    It should have been obvious before the Giant's comment, but apparently there's nothing so obvious that someone won't get it wrong.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    A,B,C,D,E,F

    These sound like solid rules to me, as for the Giant's commentary someone should PM him on the issue and at least get his consent before we start posting his commentary. Until then they should be excluded and if the Giant does give the okay we can vote to edit the rules to reflect this or just create a new Index exclusively for commentary

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by DrBurr View Post
    A,B,C,D,E,F

    These sound like solid rules to me, as for the Giant's commentary someone should PM him on the issue and at least get his consent before we start posting his commentary. Until then they should be excluded and if the Giant does give the okay we can vote to edit the rules to reflect this or just create a new Index exclusively for commentary
    I am with you A,B,C,D,E,F
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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
    I don't know if it's worth putting in the OP, but the Giant's post about Nale's wand can go for almost all accusations of Deus Ex Machina.
    We already have one quote in the index about that, from that same thread in fact. Does this one add any new info that isn't in that first post?

    Quote Originally Posted by t209 View Post
    I think it could be good.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=42
    Here's the post since there are people who needs answers to the questions.
    This has already become out-of-date. Not to mention the comment no longer exists.
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  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    a -3 (sort of), b, c, e, f

    Although it is probably neither necessary nor legal to reproduce the entirety of the giant's book commentaries here, a brief list of debate topics that they definitively settle (the good 'ol "right four words" debate comes to mind) would be nice. If you'd like, you could have people here who have the books vote on the specific language to make sure that it is clear.

    Also, I'm for leaving up contradictory comments that the giant has made in the past. Most of my reasons have been covered by others, though, so I won't rehash them here.

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    We already have one quote in the index about that, from that same thread in fact. Does this one add any new info that isn't in that first post?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gift Jeraff View Post
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  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Why Soon didn't flee when Redcloak "turned" him.

    I had always assumed that Redcloak's level was simply too low to turn a creature with as many hit dice as Soon, largely because Redcloak said he failed to affect him. Maybe that makes this comment noteworthy?
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  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    If the voting is still open:

    a, b, c, d, e, f -3

    Like FujinAkari said, this is your thread. You should have at least some creative leeway with the inclusion of comments. Other than that, looks good.
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  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Voting Final Tally:

    Rule A passed with 17 votes out of 17. 3 voters took exception to subpoint 3.

    Rule B passed with 17 votes out of 17. No exceptions taken.

    Rule C passed with 16 votes out of 17. No exceptions taken.

    Rule D passed with 11 votes out of 17. No exceptions taken.

    Rule E passed with 17 votes out of 17. No exceptions taken.

    Rule F passed with 17 votes out of 17. 3 voters took exception to subpoint 3, and 2 took exception to subpoint 4.

    The new thread rules have been passed in full.

    To address concerns briefly:

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    a, b, c, d, e, f -3, -4

    While I like how methodical you are being, this is ultimately your index and I think you should have some degree of veto power, without having some jackalope insisting "New Comic is Up" every strip and forcing it to a vote :)
    Actually I meant for F.3 to protect against this in some way. If someone comes along and insists on something being included, the next step is discussion. Voting is last resort, always. I don't intend to waste people's time with constant voting. Only if it appears that there is a clear divide on a topic, with no discernible consensus, will a vote be called for. Voting is only to resolve issues of high controversy.

    So if one or even two or three guys come along and insist on some clearly irrelevant comment being included, and manage through some loophole to fit their comment to all the rules criteria, even then if the thread consensus seems to be against their opinion no vote will be called. My veto power then is to say "the majority disagrees with you, sorry."

    This was the best way I could think of to run the thread without me becoming "mod of the thread" or "thread tyrant" or something like that.
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  22. - Top - End - #382
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    Rule C passed with 16 votes out of 17. No exceptions taken.
    Since I appear to be the only one who did not approve of rule C, perhaps I should explain my objection.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    c) The index is a forum tool, meant primarily to provide easy access to direct statements from the author for the purpose of forum discussion. Thus, while the index may be fun to read through on a whim, this is not its primary purpose or focus - it is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection.
    It sounds well and good at first, but what does it actually mean? "Primarily" implies exceptions exist, and "It is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection" implies it still is a trivia collection...so what's the purpose of making these distinctions, particularly since no action based on these distinctions is mentioned? B.1 covers the more obvious "non-comic-related" trivia material, and B clearly states that such things will not be included in the index....

    ...so what is the purpose of C?
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  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    It sounds well and good at first, but what does it actually mean? "Primarily" implies exceptions exist, and "It is a research aid more than it is a trivia collection" implies it still is a trivia collection...so what's the purpose of making these distinctions, particularly since no action based on these distinctions is mentioned? B.1 covers the more obvious "non-comic-related" trivia material, and B clearly states that such things will not be included in the index....

    ...so what is the purpose of C?
    "Primarily" does not imply exceptions exist. It implies that a reader can use the index in a variety of legitimate ways, but that the index has one mission goal, and those other benefits of the index are simply incidental bonuses that result from that goal.

    It means that all the comments in the index are trivia, but they weren't selected for that reason - they were selected and included because of their value for future forum discussions (so that people discussing certain things could find the comment quickly).

    Another way of phrasing it: all comments that are helpful for research are also trivia comments, however, not all trivia comments are helpful for research. You may read the index as a trivia collection. It can serve that function just fine. But that is not the primary intention behind it - the primary attention and focus of the index is on research help.

    One reason for the rule is that it is the foundation for D: i.e. that old outdated comments should not be included. They may be fun to read as trivia but they would simply confuse matters in terms of research for forum discussion.

    Thus, "for the sake of completion" or "the comment may not be useful anymore, but I want it to be in there because it is interesting" are not valid arguments for a comment's conclusion . . . at least, not on their own. The index isn't meant to predict and provide for every single possible way that it can be legitimately used. It is meant to provide research aid. Not research aid only, because it can be used for many things in many ways. But research aid primarily, i.e. first and foremost, as it is the focal point and goal of the index.
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Everyone,

    I may be gone from the forum for a little over a week. I'll get to any suggested comments (including the one or two above) when I get back.
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  25. - Top - End - #385
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
    Thus, "for the sake of completion" or "the comment may not be useful anymore, but I want it to be in there because it is interesting" are not valid arguments for a comment's conclusion . . . at least, not on their own. The index isn't meant to predict and provide for every single possible way that it can be legitimately used. It is meant to provide research aid. Not research aid only, because it can be used for many things in many ways. But research aid primarily, i.e. first and foremost, as it is the focal point and goal of the index.
    So if I'm reading this right....Rule C exists to reinforce the notion that "Because it is there is not sufficient reason to climb a mountain index a comment." A comment needs to provide or confirm information that would be relevant to a discussion of the comic or some aspect of it.

    Am I understanding you correctly?


    EDIT: The Giant comments on the worship of the northern and southern gods. Hel's domain being tied to those who believe in the ideals of honor is particularly interesting.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2012-04-11 at 09:45 PM.
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Giant Art 1 and Giant Art 2 have been posted, which will certainly be useful the next "Gah! How is OOTS so possible? This is a hack that can only draw stick figures! STICK FIGURES!" shows up :)
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by Jasdoif View Post
    So if I'm reading this right....Rule C exists to reinforce the notion that "Because it is there is not sufficient reason to climb a mountain index a comment." A comment needs to provide or confirm information that would be relevant to a discussion of the comic or some aspect of it.

    Am I understanding you correctly?
    Sort of. That's part of it. Really it is a matter of defining the purpose of the index. Someone can't just come in and say "the index should look like this or include this comment, because here is how I particularly use the index." That particular use is subjective. It may be a legitimate use but I as the index organizer and everyone else as the contributors aren't meant to foresee every possible particular use. Rather, we are operating within a specific focused goal / objective. We make our decisions based on this goal / index use, not what someone feels like should be the goal because of how they tend to use it.

    Will get to the new suggestions shortly, probably tomorrow...
    "And yet, will we ever come to an end of discussion and talk if we think we must always reply to replies? For replies come from those who either cannot understand what is said to them, or are so stubborn and contentious that they refuse to give in even if they do understand." - St. Augustine

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  28. - Top - End - #388
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  29. - Top - End - #389
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    Quote Originally Posted by FujinAkari View Post
    Giant Art 1 and Giant Art 2 have been posted, which will certainly be useful the next "Gah! How is OOTS so possible? This is a hack that can only draw stick figures! STICK FIGURES!" shows up :)
    Added to the index.

    EDIT: Also added Jasdoif's suggestion. Forgot to quote it in this post initially though.
    Last edited by ThePhantasm; 2012-04-18 at 05:04 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #390
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    Default Re: The Index of the Giant's Comments

    What do you think about the follow-up to that earlier comment about the gods (which was basically "read and find out")?

    The one that explains it isn't contradictory for the gods to create new races AFTER using up the threads of reality to make world 2.0. Living creatures inhabit the planet but are not considered a part of the planet.
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