League of Legends XXV: Who is your Summoner, and what does he do?

[Math_Mage]

So, I am curious, how are Udyr and Skarner comparing to each other, both as laners, junglers, and in teamfights?

Specifically, I like Udyr for his sustain and beefiness, great built in damage and spammable stun, and how he can choose the smaller items and become as powerful as someone with much more expensive items (i.e. give the man a wriggles, an SV, and an Aegis, and he may as well be one of your tanks. Meanwhile, just get sheen and some AS and you've got some mighty damage.) Does Skarner find himself able to get by that easily, or does he need more in his build?

And other than that, how do they stack up?

Udyr has spammable stuns and superior single-target burst. Skarner has sustained AOE slows and DAT ULTIMATE. I would say Skarner is a better anticarry, while Udyr is a stronger frontline/peeler. Otherwise, they have fairly similar builds and playstyles.

[EternalMelon]

Don't mind me, just saving an orphaned post.

[Daverin]

Udyr has spammable stuns and superior single-target burst. Skarner has sustained AOE slows and DAT ULTIMATE. I would say Skarner is a better anticarry, while Udyr is a stronger frontline/peeler. Otherwise, they have fairly similar builds and playstyles.

Very helpful, thanks.

[Neftren]

Wheee! Incredibly easy match for 1554 ELO. The question is, how high can I go before I inevitably fall again?

http://www.mediafire.com/?3q9r874dfa28v7a

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Eldariel, I seem to recall you being a proponent of a bruiser build for Shen. How does that play out, exactly? We've got a friend who wants some alternatives to AP.

[Eldariel]

Eldariel, I seem to recall you being a proponent of a bruiser build for Shen. How does that play out, exactly? We've got a friend who wants some alternatives to AP.

Basically, you build Atmog's for its obscene synergy with his passive and being Shen, then you get some combination of ASpd, MR & Armor alongside possibly more HP and go to town.

It's really just a matter of mixing tank and tanky DPS items after getting the starting DEEPS from Atmog's. Should solo lane or jungle. Haven't tried him with new masteries yet; should be good since he has HP scaling tho, and Defense tree is boss now.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Basically, you build Atmog's for its obscene synergy with his passive and being Shen, then you get some combination of ASpd, MR & Armor alongside possibly more HP and go to town.

It's really just a matter of mixing tank and tanky DPS items after getting the starting DEEPS from Atmog's. Should solo lane or jungle. Haven't tried him with new masteries yet; should be good since he has HP scaling tho, and Defense tree is boss now.

For ASpd, Wit's and Razor are favored over, say, Zeal or C&D?

[Daverin]

I was about to say, Wit's End at least would appear to be a great choice, since it grants both the Aspd, the MR, and some bonus damage.

I imagine a full build for Shen could look something like Atmas, Warmogs, Merc Treads, Wits End, Last Whisper, and maybe Stark's Fervor? Depending on armor, Last Whisper could be replaced by Black Cleaver or something.

[Math_Mage]

Meh, thanks to my last Ranked game, I now know the little things I have to do to start carrying up the ladder through the trolls. So it was worth the 16 Elo lost to an Alistar who headbutts Tristana onto low-health Ashe, the entire team engaging after I revealed the enemy team's hiding place and pinged to back up and ran all the way to another lane, and Alistar + Riven repeatedly deciding to 2v5 after people tell them to retreat. I don't know how a team with Riven, Alistar, and Jarvan managed to never peel for their AD carry, but it was still salvageable.

The little things:
-Never ever die dumb. It only happened once, but that's still one time too many.
-Everything I communicate in chat needs to be spammed so people recognize and obey instructions
-Buy Oracle's to Baron, even if you're the AD carry, because nobody else is going to and the enemy jungler will always outsmite yours. Natural law.

[tribble]

Skarner has sustained AOE slows and DAT ULTIMATE.

The only way Skarner's ultimate is stronger than rammus' taunt is that he can't hurt himself with it (anymore) and it can drag longranged champions I thought. I guess there's also the little nuke, and that's nice.

I prefer Udyr for the jungle because he clears at warpspeed and laughs in the face of any champion with channeled abilities. Skarner, on the other hand, has to choose between stopping malzahar or katarina from ulting.

[Math_Mage]

The only way Skarner's ultimate is stronger than rammus' taunt is that he can't hurt himself with it (anymore) and it can drag longranged champions I thought. I guess there's also the little nuke, and that's nice.

I prefer Udyr for the jungle because he clears at warpspeed and laughs in the face of any champion with channeled abilities. Skarner, on the other hand, has to choose between stopping malzahar or katarina from ulting.

Skarner also drags farther, does more damage while dragging, and permaslows afterwards.

[TechnOkami]

Right, so I think I have a list of champions I can legitimately play as vs who I think I can play as.

I'll do well if I play any of these guys.
-Malzahar
-Maokai
-Skarner

These three are, sadly, the only ones I can confidently say I'm legitimately good with.

Champs I think I'm good with:
Fiddlesticks- I used to be really good with him until I reached an elo which required ap runes... which I don't have... 'cause I'm saving for Maokai...

Renekton- Ok, I'm legitimately not that bad of a Renekton, it's just I get killed very easily because he's too damn squishy.

Swain-I used to be decent with him, but I'm not sure what happened... all I do know is I started to suck when they Nerfed his ult.

Brand- I can kinda sorta play him. The things which kills me is of course my lack of ap runes, my placement of his W (sometimes), and especially getting my E to hit something good, and not a minion.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Dodge is officially going the way of the Dodo. Suprise, surprise.

[Darth Mario]

Dodge is officially going the way of the Dodo. Suprise, surprise.

Gee, didn't see that coming when they started removing every source of it.

Chances are that Ninja Tabi aren't going the way of the Dodo themselves, but rather will see a redesign into something like armor/% damage reduction against autoattacks/other things that apply on-hit. This will give the same statistical benefits as dodge without forcing a complete redesign of the item.

[Eldariel]

For ASpd, Wit's and Razor are favored over, say, Zeal or C&D?

Iono which is better in the end; Crit does more damage, Wit'srazor makes you tankier. Generally used Wit'srazor maself, but Atma's certainly makes Crit an avenue of interest. If going Crit, mite as well get Trinity while at it. He does a decent job of triggering Sheen and the rest of it is obviously very useful (except for Mana but meh).

[Neftren]

Right, so I think I have a list of champions I can legitimately play as vs who I think I can play as.

I'll do well if I play any of these guys.
-Malzahar
-Maokai
-Skarner

"Well" is a very subjective term in League of Legends. Well as in "your score", well as in "I support my team to make it a more cohesive unit"? There are countless games where my score doesn't look all that pretty, mostly because I miss the assist, despite being there in the teamfight (read: my team either dies too fast, or kills too fast).

Renekton- Ok, I'm legitimately not that bad of a Renekton, it's just I get killed very easily because he's too damn squishy.

Swain-I used to be decent with him, but I'm not sure what happened... all I do know is I started to suck when they Nerfed his ult.

Brand- I can kinda sorta play him. The things which kills me is of course my lack of ap runes, my placement of his W (sometimes), and especially getting my E to hit something good, and not a minion.

Runes make not a player (except for some junglers and some rare exceptions). Skill makes a player. I went 1150 ELO ranked queue smurfing on Brand with no runes and absolutely wrecked. Certainly one game is not a great statistical example, but I've done this several times now, "helping" my friend out of "ELO Hell". With that said...

Renekton is a great AD bruiser/caster. He's also capable of being one of the most tanky characters in the game. How are you building him if you feel he's squishy? Have you tried maybe Atmogs Mallet? Maybe throw in a Randuins or FoN depending on enemy damage output.

Speaking of Brand, most of Brand's laning I've found is simply not spamming his pillar of fire thing, but just using it to harass and deny. You don't need to be doing loads of damage to the enemy. Just chip away at them, and if you opened a mechanically superior build (e.g. Boots + 3 against a Doran's Ring or something), you'll eventually force him out of lane. In short, exploit Brand's ridiculously huge range. You'll get a lot more out of AP Runes if you already play well, and can land your skillshots.

Meh, thanks to my last Ranked game, I now know the little things I have to do to start carrying up the ladder through the trolls. So it was worth the 16 Elo lost to an Alistar who headbutts Tristana onto low-health Ashe, the entire team engaging after I revealed the enemy team's hiding place and pinged to back up and ran all the way to another lane, and Alistar + Riven repeatedly deciding to 2v5 after people tell them to retreat. I don't know how a team with Riven, Alistar, and Jarvan managed to never peel for their AD carry, but it was still salvageable.

The little things:
-Never ever die dumb. It only happened once, but that's still one time too many.
-Everything I communicate in chat needs to be spammed so people recognize and obey instructions
-Buy Oracle's to Baron, even if you're the AD carry, because nobody else is going to and the enemy jungler will always outsmite yours. Natural law.

Just try not to die ever. Some people will disagree with me on what I'm about to say, but here goes: Try not to trade kills (with a few exceptions). Sure it's a statistically even trade if you go one for one top or mid, but now you've lost your level advantage compared to jungler and bot lane. Since top is basically an afk farm for the first twenty minutes, you'll need that advantage when you pop out and start teamfighting. Obviously your team comp can change whether trading is "worth it", but in a general case, trading isn't necessarily the best idea. Play it safe, and don't be afraid to back if you're low.

From the 1200 bracket I've been smurfing in, I've found that ignoring team comp is actually the easiest way of getting a free win. The most reliable win mechanic I've found is to grab a strong mage and run mid. Win mid, win game, mostly. Carry your way out, or find someone who is great at playing carries, and play a support for them.

Oracles is an expensive investment as the AD carry. Buy a pink ward instead, and put the other 300 gold towards other things. Wards are incredibly helpful, and knocking out the enemy team's wards can be a great thing, but recognize that you can't do everything at once (it's one of the arguments I have against stacking items). Don't substitute wards with map awareness. I mean hey, that 300 gold could buy a bunch more wards for your team, especially if they don't have an oracles...

[Arbitrarity]

Renekton- Ok, I'm legitimately not that bad of a Renekton, it's just I get killed very easily because he's too damn squishy.

Arpen reds/Quints, armor yellows, MR blues (flat or scaling), QWEQQRQEQEREEWWRWW, 9/21/0, cloth+5/boots+3 (or 4, if you wait at fountain), Brutalizer->Boots 2 (Tabi, Treads, Stompers) -> Atmogs -> FoN, harass by getting 50 fury, E->AA(if possible) -> W -> AA -> Q -> E away. Should be able to repeat, since Q generates huge fury.

[tribble]

Riot needs to do something about the invite system. I log in and am bombarded with three invitations to a game-from last night. I only figure out they're from last night when I accept them one by one and the invitations vanish without any explanation.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Just try not to die ever. Some people will disagree with me on what I'm about to say, but here goes: Try not to trade kills (with a few exceptions). Sure it's a statistically even trade if you go one for one top or mid, but now you've lost your level advantage compared to jungler and bot lane. Since top is basically an afk farm for the first twenty minutes, you'll need that advantage when you pop out and start teamfighting. Obviously your team comp can change whether trading is "worth it", but in a general case, trading isn't necessarily the best idea. Play it safe, and don't be afraid to back if you're low.

Exceptions: Trading a support to give your carry First Blood = worth it. Trading a support to give a carry with an advantage in bot another kill and increasing his advantage = worth it if you get the assist and the carry doesn't end up low enough that he has to back (and is good enough to really take over the lane from then on). Trading to give your opponent 300 or less gold in exchange for a rampage, god-like, or some other high spree = usually worth it.

Still, even in those situations, it's best to just not die.

[Neftren]

Exceptions: Trading a support to give your carry First Blood = worth it. Trading a support to give a carry with an advantage in bot another kill and increasing his advantage = worth it if you get the assist and the carry doesn't end up low enough that he has to back (and is good enough to really take over the lane from then on). Trading to give your opponent 300 or less gold in exchange for a rampage, god-like, or some other high spree = usually worth it.

Still, even in those situations, it's best to just not die.

I was mostly referring to top/mid, but since we're now naming exceptions...


If anyone gets an assist on it, and you aren't already on a killing spree, then trading is acceptable.

If the enemy is building stacking items, and they would end up losing more stacks than they would have gained from your death.

If... well, I'm about to play a game, so I'll come up with more later.

[Dogmantra]

I think if you're in a solo and have/will have better boots than them is a pretty big exception.

And if you're in a solo and you scale better with items than they do.

[Eldariel]

If you're playing Akali, you Always. Trade.

[term1nally s1ck]

Unless you're against a Karthus (revive tele or not) or Yi.

[Daverin]

Iono which is better in the end; Crit does more damage, Wit'srazor makes you tankier. Generally used Wit'srazor maself, but Atma's certainly makes Crit an avenue of interest. If going Crit, mite as well get Trinity while at it. He does a decent job of triggering Sheen and the rest of it is obviously very useful (except for Mana but meh).

Huh, I wasn't even thinking. I thought "he really can't use Trinity" completely ignoring his highly spammable Q. Way to fail me.

Also, Udyr's Tiger stance is such a huge nuke (Okay, 2 second DoT, but meh.) I suppose, however, that is kind of needed considering Udyr may not be critting often in a fight. Still, AA plus up to 230 plus 1.5 AD. Dang.

EDIT: Big news, Riot has officially stated they will refund Dodge runes.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

EDIT: Big news, Riot has officially stated they will refund Dodge runes.

Well yeah. If they didn't, that would be a HUGE mistake.

[Daverin]

Well yeah. If they didn't, that would be a HUGE mistake.

I agree, but they could easily have thought "hey, let's just give a replacement rune instead!"

Good thing they didn't.

[Math_Mage]

Looking forward to buying a couple mages.

Just try not to die ever. Some people will disagree with me on what I'm about to say, but here goes: Try not to trade kills (with a few exceptions). Sure it's a statistically even trade if you go one for one top or mid, but now you've lost your level advantage compared to jungler and bot lane. Since top is basically an afk farm for the first twenty minutes, you'll need that advantage when you pop out and start teamfighting. Obviously your team comp can change whether trading is "worth it", but in a general case, trading isn't necessarily the best idea. Play it safe, and don't be afraid to back if you're low.

When I talk about bad deaths vs. other deaths...well, for example, the time when Alistar headbutted Tristana on to me wasn't a bad death, but the time when I engaged Tristana poorly and lost was a bad death. The time Gragas went through our jungle behind my dragon ward (Alistar warding in lane phase was too much to ask) to gank bot was on the fence, because there was no pressure on mid but I still should have expected something to happen. As a rule, the only time I try to trade is if I'm already dead, as in 4v2 towerdiving dead.

From the 1200 bracket I've been smurfing in, I've found that ignoring team comp is actually the easiest way of getting a free win. The most reliable win mechanic I've found is to grab a strong mage and run mid. Win mid, win game, mostly. Carry your way out, or find someone who is great at playing carries, and play a support for them.

Well, mid mage is my weakest role (with the exception that I always win Zilean mid vs. Morgana games, but that's a pretty narrow band of competence), so I suppose that's something I should work on.

[Winthur]

So Elementz got benched and the new CLG line up looks like this:
Top - HotshotGG
Mid - jiji
AD Carry - Doublelift
Support - Chauster
Jungle - Saintvicious
Mordekaiser - Dyrus

No support Hotshot I suppose. This probably means their line up includes 4 Alistars and a solo top.

[Math_Mage]

So Elementz got benched and the new CLG line up looks like this:
Top - HotshotGG
Mid - jiji
AD Carry - Doublelift
Support - Chauster
Jungle - Saintvicious
Mordekaiser - Dyrus

No support Hotshot I suppose. This probably means their line up includes 4 Alistars and a solo top.

wtfux AD Doublelift support Chauster and jiji still mid

not at all what I expected

[Winthur]

Huh, when did Doublelift rejoin CLG?

Oh! Wait. He's absolutely going to be playing support blitzcrank. At least, I hope so. I know CLG's been practicing non-traditional supports (using heal instead of CV) and that would be awesome.

I have bad news for you
Dyrus probably will do support Mordekaiser though
I'm talking to myself now wth