Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS

[Flame of Anor]

As I see Tarquin, he's completely self-serving. You basically cannot trust anything he says.

Yes on one, no on two. He is a self-serving villain, yes, but he has his own code of honor. It can involve manipulation, exaggeration, and lots of deceit by implication, but I maintain he rarely if ever tells an outright lie.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Would you rather trust the Lawful person or the Chaotic person?

I should have thought it was abundantly clear by now that Lawful does not equate with honest, nor does Chaotic equate with dishonest.

[Kish]

What blatant lies does Tarquin say in that comic you linked? There may be some hyperbole or formality[...]he does serve her

You know, when you're reaching that far to find ways blatant lies (pretty much everything he says there) aren't lies? You should maybe not try quite so hard.

[jidasfire]

I would clarify the issue by saying that Tarquin does not lie at all, but he deceives almost constantly. The problem is, from Tarquin's point of view, it's not relevant that his truths serve the same function as most people's lies, as he doesn't really have any sense of right or wrong, or any concern for how his actions affect individuals, but he has a very strong code of ethics that he is loath to break. I don't know if that constitutes a code of honor so much as part of his adherence to order and procedure.

And while I did earlier say that Tarquin seems to be a loving father to Elan, it's hard to say how different that would be if he had raised him. Tarquin seems to respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist, but he doesn't really understand why Elan might object to his murdering of innocent people. Since Elan does everything he's supposed to do in the "right" way (that of a hero), Tarquin probably would have approved of him, and most of the conflict would have come from Elan's side. This is not to say that Tarquin's behavior is okay, but he probably would have spoiled Elan and scorned Nale more than he did. Just a theory.

[DougTheHead]

A more interesting note on Tarquins fatherly qualities: He teaches Nale that being a bard would be a waste of his talents, but gives Nale the freedom to experiment in unfavorable multiclassing, what do we make of that?

Good point! Probably it suggests that Tarquin wasn't a very attentive father- he may have given Nale occasional advice on leveling, but largely left him to his own devices. It would fit with Nale's personality too, as most of Nale's actions so far speak to having major daddy issues- he craves respect and constantly needs to gratify his own ego, which could be evidence that he never got much respect from his father. Hell, this whole plot could be Nale's attempt to finally get some parental respect, albeit in a twisted, sure-to-fail way.

[rbetieh]

What blatant lies does Tarquin say in that comic you linked? There may be some hyperbole or formality (saying "I'm humbled" is more of a formal turn of phrase than a true statement about himself), but no direct lies as far as I can tell.
The closest one is "serve our blessed empress for as long as she draws fiery breath." But even there, the term "fiery" leaves him an out, since he could potentially betray her quickly and have her killed while she's asleep or surprised and therefore no literal fire would be involved. And he does serve her, so long as she remains useful to him.

Tarquin serves the empress very well. He serves her breakfast, lunch, dinner, midnight snacks, cows, chickens, dissidents, possible ex-wives (according to others).....

[Reprimand]

Horace does say about Eugene, "I'm still surprised that he liked girls" or something to that effect (I'm not looking up the specific comic, but I think it was while he was taking Roy fishing). That strongly implies that not only is he disappointed that Eugene didn't follow in his footsteps and become a fighter, but that he also views Eugene's study of magic as effeminate.

This could have just as easily meant that he died when eugene was very young when he still thought girls were "Icky," all guys have the phase I think.

[rbetieh]

Good point! Probably it suggests that Tarquin wasn't a very attentive father- he may have given Nale occasional advice on leveling, but largely left him to his own devices. It would fit with Nale's personality too, as most of Nale's actions so far speak to having major daddy issues- he craves respect and constantly needs to gratify his own ego, which could be evidence that he never got much respect from his father. Hell, this whole plot could be Nale's attempt to finally get some parental respect, albeit in a twisted, sure-to-fail way.

Hit and run helicopter dad? I like it.

The great comparison here is Elans Mom right? She lets him pick an underpowered class and then tells him that the key to a rich and fulfilling life is cross-class skills. Be able to do a little bit of everything, even if you cant do it that well, even if it makes you basically useless. Better to be helpfull than usefull?

[dps]

In real life, too.



My impression was not that Horace implied he thought Eugene would be gay, more that he thought Eugene would pay no attention to human relationships.

Either way, it does suggest (though not prove) that Horace was as disapproving of Eugene's career choice as Eugene was of Roy's.

And I will note that while Eugene disapproved of Roy's choice, he did pay to send Roy to Fighter School.

[Anarion]

You know, when you're reaching that far to find ways blatant lies (pretty much everything he says there) aren't lies? You should maybe not try quite so hard.

I'm trying hard because I think that Tarquin tries hard. The point is that he plays by a certain set of (extremely twisted) rules and sticks to them. Of course he intends to deceive, but he does it using Aes Sedai truths as opposed to blatant lies. I do not think, for example, that he would ever say something equivalent to "the sky is purple and has polka dots" (unless he wasn't referring to the atmosphere).

I would clarify the issue by saying that Tarquin does not lie at all, but he deceives almost constantly. The problem is, from Tarquin's point of view, it's not relevant that his truths serve the same function as most people's lies, as he doesn't really have any sense of right or wrong, or any concern for how his actions affect individuals, but he has a very strong code of ethics that he is loath to break. I don't know if that constitutes a code of honor so much as part of his adherence to order and procedure.

And while I did earlier say that Tarquin seems to be a loving father to Elan, it's hard to say how different that would be if he had raised him. Tarquin seems to respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist, but he doesn't really understand why Elan might object to his murdering of innocent people. Since Elan does everything he's supposed to do in the "right" way (that of a hero), Tarquin probably would have approved of him, and most of the conflict would have come from Elan's side. This is not to say that Tarquin's behavior is okay, but he probably would have spoiled Elan and scorned Nale more than he did. Just a theory.

This. I pretty much agree with everything here. There's a chance that Tarquin getting to Elan at an early enough age would have caused Elan to never become good at all, but if we assume that Elan has some core personality of heroism, this would be exactly right.

Either way, it does suggest (though not prove) that Horace was as disapproving of Eugene's career choice as Eugene was of Roy's.

And I will note that while Eugene disapproved of Roy's choice, he did pay to send Roy to Fighter School.

I guess this shows Eugene being reasonable as opposed to disowning Roy or at least forcing him to pay his own way through fighter college. I would hazard a guess, however, that Eugene only paid after a great dealing of cajoling and/or threatening from Sarah Greenhilt.

[AutomatedTeller]

I guess this shows Eugene being reasonable as opposed to disowning Roy or at least forcing him to pay his own way through fighter college. I would hazard a guess, however, that Eugene only paid after a great dealing of cajoling and/or threatening from Sarah Greenhilt.

Eugene IS Lawful Good (as is Horace), so I think it's not all that big a stretch to think he would do the right thing, even if he complains about it.

[veti]

I would clarify the issue by saying that Tarquin does not lie at all, but he deceives almost constantly.

Obviously there is no universal agreement about the meaning of the word 'lie'. Like a canny politician, Tarquin seems to work on the assumption that his every word is being captured and may be used against him in future. Like them, he makes strenuous efforts to deceive his audience, while also making sure he can defend each statement if necessary.

Here's a thought: it doesn't really matter whether he's "lying" or not. The undisputed fact is, you'll never know exactly how he was misleading you until the truth unfolds before your eyes. So even if you have confidence that what he's saying is 100% true, it's still not safe to rely on it for informational purposes.

And while I did earlier say that Tarquin seems to be a loving father to Elan, it's hard to say how different that would be if he had raised him. Tarquin seems to respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist, but he doesn't really understand why Elan might object to his murdering of innocent people. Since Elan does everything he's supposed to do in the "right" way (that of a hero), Tarquin probably would have approved of him, and most of the conflict would have come from Elan's side. This is not to say that Tarquin's behavior is okay, but he probably would have spoiled Elan and scorned Nale more than he did. Just a theory.

I agree with that speculation, but I want to quibble with the word "loving". I think Tarquin is a textbook narcissist, completely incapable of love. His interest in Elan is as an heir to him, as the person who's destined to conclude his (Tarquin's) epic story - and being a bard, also presumably going to tell future generations all about it and thereby cement his immortality. In other words, his interest is entirely self-centred.

So he doesn't so much "respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist" as demand it - his son could be no less, he needs someone of that stature to complete his story. I'm guessing that one of the reasons he was so disappointed in Nale was the latter's lack of interest in the "protagonist" role for himself.

[rbetieh]

His interest in Elan is as an heir to him, as the person who's destined to conclude his (Tarquin's) epic story - and being a bard, also presumably going to tell future generations all about it and thereby cement his immortality. In other words, his interest is entirely self-centred.

I speculate that by now, Tarquin has figured out the Elan is going to make a very bad heir. He knows his son is none too bright, overly trusting, and cant make a good speech to save his life. I get the impression that Tarquin pulled Roy out of the gladiator pits to run the plan after he is gone. Makes more sense, Roy has already demonstrated that he sticks to his guns, doesn't give up, keeps his word, and is intelligent. His only disparaiging comment to Roy thus far was about trying to save the crowd from Thog (lack of ruthlessness, a quality that can be used against Roy) but thus far I would figure that Tarquin should see in Roy someone that can manage the business effectively, and in a way that would please Elan, since Elan is likely to kill the next Evil Dictator that replaces Tarquin too....

[Nightmarenny]

You misunderstand. Its been made clear Tarquin doesn't expect to die of natural causes. He expects his son to return years later and (probably) kill him.

I doubt Tarquins problem with Nale is not being the one to kill him in the future though. Its probably more being the worst dark Prince ever and even worse at betrayal than starscream.

Like, I bet he'd have been proud of Nale if he had competently stabbed him in the throat.

[the_tick_rules]

I sure wouldn't trust him for much.

[BecauseICan]

Obviously there is no universal agreement about the meaning of the word 'lie'. Like a canny politician, Tarquin seems to work on the assumption that his every word is being captured and may be used against him in future. Like them, he makes strenuous efforts to deceive his audience, while also making sure he can defend each statement if necessary.

Here's a thought: it doesn't really matter whether he's "lying" or not. The undisputed fact is, you'll never know exactly how he was misleading you until the truth unfolds before your eyes. So even if you have confidence that what he's saying is 100% true, it's still not safe to rely on it for informational purposes.



I agree with that speculation, but I want to quibble with the word "loving". I think Tarquin is a textbook narcissist, completely incapable of love. His interest in Elan is as an heir to him, as the person who's destined to conclude his (Tarquin's) epic story - and being a bard, also presumably going to tell future generations all about it and thereby cement his immortality. In other words, his interest is entirely self-centred.

So he doesn't so much "respect the fact that Elan is a protagonist" as demand it - his son could be no less, he needs someone of that stature to complete his story. I'm guessing that one of the reasons he was so disappointed in Nale was the latter's lack of interest in the "protagonist" role for himself.

I actually think Tarquin is more complicated that this. The Giant loves breaking stereotypes (e.g. Lawful Good paladin opposing a mostly good party). It's human nature to try to dehumanize people who do bad things and deny any virtues they may actually have, especially love for family. It's very natural; "Oh, he isn't really human if he was able to do that." Unfortunately, in the real world, it's really easy to see that human nature is, by nature, both good and evil, and that evil can come of things that are, on the surface, good. Some of the nastiest people around do things in order to keep their family on top of the social heap. It's generally not good for the people around them, and in places where we have redirected that instinct into more cooperative competition, society as a whole is better off, but that's still their motivation.

[rbetieh]

I sure wouldn't trust him for much.

I am pretty sure that if you can get him to sign a contract and you remain 100% within the bounds of the agreement at all times, you will have no trouble with Tarquin. So for the Order, the only ones that can safely play ball are Roy and Durkon.

[veti]

I actually think Tarquin is more complicated that this. The Giant loves breaking stereotypes (e.g. Lawful Good paladin opposing a mostly good party). It's human nature to try to dehumanize people who do bad things and deny any virtues they may actually have, especially love for family. It's very natural; "Oh, he isn't really human if he was able to do that." Unfortunately, in the real world, it's really easy to see that human nature is, by nature, both good and evil, and that evil can come of things that are, on the surface, good. Some of the nastiest people around do things in order to keep their family on top of the social heap. It's generally not good for the people around them, and in places where we have redirected that instinct into more cooperative competition, society as a whole is better off, but that's still their motivation.

But "a villain who helps his family at the expense of everyone else" is hardly "breaking stereotypes". Isn't that a stereotype in itself? (Ah yes, here you go.)

I don't think Tarquin's feelings for Elan are particularly deep-rooted, nor would I buy the description "love" for them. (After all, Tarquin was quick enough to turn against Nale when provoked. The reason he hasn't acted against Elan is - exactly as he says it is - because he has no reason to. Give him a reason, and he'd betray Elan in a heartbeat.)

I agree that Tarquin is human, which is why I'm inclined to see his evil in terms of a human personality flaw. Let's try applying the test to Tarquin:

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance - check.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - yep.
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people - I'd say so.
4. Requires excessive admiration - OK, this one's debatable
5. Has a very strong sense of entitlement - check.
6. Is exploitative of others - well duh, that's the basis of his entire plan.
7. Lacks empathy - definitely (see 783 again).
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - OK, not really.
9. Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes - absolutely.

You need to show at least five of these traits to be considered pathologically narcissistic, and Tarquin (by my count) passes that count by an unhealty margin.

[rbetieh]

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance - check.
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love - yep.
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people - I'd say so.
4. Requires excessive admiration - OK, this one's debatable
5. Has a very strong sense of entitlement - check.
6. Is exploitative of others - well duh, that's the basis of his entire plan.
7. Lacks empathy - definitely (see 783 again).
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her - OK, not really.
9. Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes - absolutely.

Your count is wrong. Tarquin doesnt upsell himself, in fact he Downsells himself. So there goes 1. Your example on 2 is also not correct, his preocupation is in 760 and his goal is to create a world where people do not need to fight. The fact that he is willing to throw big parties for the people and go talk to and hire two criminals shows he doesnt disassociate with "the lessers". And is exploitative of others well, depends on the others, because certainly not his friends, who he is SHARING POWER WITH.

Oh and on a note of Tarquin and friendships/relationships: reread Malaks words in Panel 3 Malack expects Tarquin to try to weasel NALE (doesnt know its Elan yet) out of his punishment. Closest friend Malak thinks Tarquin doesnt have the stomach to go through with killing his own son. Think about that for a second.

You have misdiagnosed Tarquin. He is Evil, but not above granting the world peace and stability so long as he gets to be top dog. Similar personality to The Brain from 'Pinky and the Brain', not Snowball (from the same show).

Heck, Ian Starshine exhibits more of these traits than Tarquin does, of course he hasnt had nearly enough appearances yet, so its best to hold out any definitive judgement.

[veti]

Your count is wrong.

Since you and I appear to be reading two entirely different stories, there doesn't seem much point in arguing about it. You have your opinion and I have mine, then we're both happy. Deal?

[Kish]

Your count is wrong. Tarquin doesnt upsell himself, in fact he Downsells himself.

That's called "blatantly lying." You know, that thing you claimed Tarquin doesn't do? His massive ego is evident.

Your example on 2 is also not correct, his preocupation is in 760 and his goal is to create a world where people do not need to fight.

You're kidding? He's created an empire of ridiculous evil and repression for the purpose of living like a king for as long as he can. In one panel, he offered an excuse about no one having any reason to fight each other once they've moved past the entire concept of morality.

[...]he doesnt disassociate with "the lessers".

Okay, at that point I think veti had the right idea here.

[AutomatedTeller]

Psychologists don't all agree.

But, even if those two examples are wrong and the count is 6 instead of 8... that still qualifies for the disorder.

We seem to have gone off the point of the discussion - Tarquin is lawful evil, yes. He would prefer an orderly world where everyone is under his domination, as opposed to a disorderly world with everyone under his domination.

Do we have strong chaotic evil antagonists? Xykon strikes me as more neutral evil than chaotic.

[rbetieh]

Since you and I appear to be reading two entirely different stories, there doesn't seem much point in arguing about it. You have your opinion and I have mine, then we're both happy. Deal?

Not different stories, just one reads the Codex through the concave lens, and the other through the convex lens, it happens. But if your wish is that we stop responding to each other directly, I can respect that wish. No need to flame out a thread that now could be getting analysis for Penelope/Orrin.

He's created an empire of ridiculous evil and repression for the purpose of living like a king for as long as he can. In one panel, he offered an excuse about no one having any reason to fight each other once they've moved past the entire concept of morality

Thats where we differ. Leave your own moral code at the door, and look at the plan objectively. 3 Large empires run by 6 friends working together almost assures that there will be no more war in the continent. You dont like how they run their empires? Fine. You think the plan can't assure peace? Show me how this plan will fail to bring peace. Peace and Freedom are not the same thing.

And like I said, there is no difference in Evilness between "granting peace while living like a king" and "robbing from 'the rich' and giving back less than '40%' to 'the poor'" one is a giant Peace Tax, the other a giant Equality Tax. Same thing, still repressive you have just changed who gets repressed and for what reason. Paladins these fathers are not.

Hey, for a change of pace, anyone want to bring Julio Scoundrel into the equation? He did act as a father figure for Elan, and seriously changed Elans outlook and worldview.

[hamishspence]

And like I said, there is no difference in Evilness between "granting peace while living like a king" and "robbing from 'the rich' and giving back less than '40%' to 'the poor'" one is a giant Peace Tax, the other a giant Equality Tax. Same thing, still repressive you have just changed who gets repressed and for what reason.

There's a lot more to Tarquin's activities than simply "granting peace" though.

Conversely "robbing the rich" might not qualify as an evil act at all- if it''s restricted solely to "the rich who have gained wealth via evil means"- in the context of D&D.

[Kish]

Thats where we differ. Leave your own moral code at the door, and look at the plan objectively.

Well, of course Tarquin isn't doing anything wrong if you only look at what he's doing after resolving not to see anything wrong.

And like I said, there is no difference in Evilness between "granting peace while living like a king" and "robbing from 'the rich' and giving back less than '40%' to 'the poor'"

That statement may, or may not, be true. What it is, is completely irrelevant to the Order of the Stick comic. "This one thing Tarquin says is not worse than the one thing Haley says" does not make Tarquin less disgusting.

Pick up your sense of morality from the door where you left it, and look at what Tarquin does, what life in the Empire of Blood is like.

He says he's doing something different than what he manifestly is doing? I'll let you in on a little secret: Tarquin lies constantly.

[rbetieh]

Well, of course Tarquin isn't doing anything wrong if you only look at what he's doing after resolving not to see anything wrong.

That statement may, or may not, be true. What it is, is completely irrelevant to the Order of the Stick comic. "This one thing Tarquin says is not worse than the one thing Haley says" does not make Tarquin less disgusting.

Pick up your sense of morality from the door where you left it, and look at what Tarquin does, what life in the Empire of Blood is like.

He says he's doing something different than what he manifestly is doing? I'll let you in on a little secret: Tarquin lies constantly.

Reread the plan. Most of these folks actually end up in the empire os sweat, which by the looks of it is the least repressive of the three, since most people choose the eos voluntarily. It's a all 1 empire, after all.

Oh and ian starshines plan, which he taught to haley starshine IS apropriate in this forum/thread.

[zimmerwald1915]

Reread the plan. Most of these folks actually end up in the empire os sweat, which by the looks of it is the least repressive of the three, since most people choose the eos voluntarily. It's a all 1 empire, after all.

Based on what evidence do you consider the EoS the least repressive of the three Empires? We've been shown, through the lens of Tarquin's narration, precisely one room in the EoS. That room is populated by a ruling caste just as decadent, in its own way, as the Empress of Blood, plus Tarquin's cohorts. It is not unreasonable to assume that these cohorts dictate policy in the EoS just as surely as he and Malack dictate policy in the EoB, or Miron and his colleague do in the EoT. Even if that assumption is not granted right off, we do know that this formation of Tarquin's party is not stable, that they change the pairings every few years. In that time, Tarquin would have noticed any wavering among his cohorts when he got to work with them.

"Most people" on the Western Continent have very little say in what happens to them. What Tarquin described wasn't a series of nice clean referenda whereby the people of the Western Continent decide who rules over them. What he described was power politics, a series of maneuvers by leaders that in at least three cases - the EoB, EoT, and EoS - the people had no role in choosing, and over whom the people have no influence when it comes to policy-making. His scheme is based on manipulation, deception, strict definition of options when it comes to making choices, and strict limitation on the number of people who can choose anything.

[Dr.Epic]

You know, can we really call Elan's father disappointing? Disappointment implies one had positive expectations that were not met. Not once in the run of the comic were we meant to believe his dad was in any way a good guy. I say he met expectations.

[Kish]

Looking at the OP, it's clear that Doug is talking about fathers being disappointing to their children, not to readers.

[Dr.Epic]

Looking at the OP, it's clear that Doug is talking about fathers being disappointing to their children, not to readers.

But was Tarquin ever a disappointment to Elan? He was told at a young age by his mother his father was ruthless.