Disappointing Fathers and Saintly Mothers in OOTS

[Flame of Anor]

Do we have strong chaotic evil antagonists? Xykon strikes me as more neutral evil than chaotic.

His overall effect is more neutral because he has Redcloak keeping him on the rails. Xykon himself is Chaotic as the Abyss.

[Kish]

But was Tarquin ever a disappointment to Elan?

Oh gee, I don't know.

[rbetieh]

Based on what evidence do you consider the EoS the least repressive of the three Empires?

Simple, the plan has 5 parts EoT Antagonizes, EoB Conquers, EoT Opresses, EoS Liberates, Nation becomes a protectorate of EoS. Note, the nation joins EoS for its own protection is just that, the liberated people prop up a quick government with the help of EoS of course and then they choose to side with their liberators. Its pretty obvious that the EoS have to have a much les brutal regime for the plan to work, otherwise people would try to leave EoS or refuse to join EoS which ruins the plan. Logic dictates that EoS has to play the "good guy" here, not the "less evil guy".

[Lvl45DM!]

Yeah but the order doesnt always go Tears attacks, Blood attacks, Sweat liberates. They mix it up.
Also it doesnt really matter if they are all equally brutal since the conquered nations will THINK that its better cos they chose it. Sweat will be as brutal as the people running it want

[Ellye]

While there is clearly a severe shock of alignment between Tarquin and Elan, I believe Tarquin is actually a pretty decent parent.
He seems to sincerely care about Elan and to be honestly proud of him being a hero. He knows that Elan will eventually be the one to end his story, and he's fine and happy with that, since it will be make a great tale. His relationship with Nale, on the other hand, apparently degraded much more, it seems.

Nonetheless, the alignment issues are enough to classify this as a troubled relationship.

Also, the Ancient Black Dragon is an example of a good moon.

Oh, wait a second! This theory totally and absolutely irrefutably proves that V is a male, since he has a troubled relationship with his children! ... Okay, forget that.

[Lvl45DM!]

Yeah Tarquin is a competent dad at least, who could make his son happy...if not for the alignment differences. Its like having a racist dad or a dad who goes for a different political party than you. Causes fights but doesnt stop them being able to raise you

[rbetieh]

Yeah but the order doesnt always go Tears attacks, Blood attacks, Sweat liberates. They mix it up.
Also it doesnt really matter if they are all equally brutal since the conquered nations will THINK that its better cos they chose it. Sweat will be as brutal as the people running it want

No, what they mix up is who's in charge of which empire. The formula doesnt work unless there is a "lessor of 3 evils" available to pick from. So right now that is EoS and when one of the 3 empires gets overthrown it will change. Its probably a way to keep all 3 empires growing evenly, but if the "good" empire was simply too repressive, resistance movements would arise; and, as Tarquin says, that doesnt happen because his plan has contingencies for it. Mainly, a "not nearly as bad as the other two" choice has to exist at all times, and if that choice is changing at all, it means that the overall "good/evil" axis of the 3 empires is also in flux, most probably trending up. Note for instance, that for all of its oppression, the EoB allows its workers to unionize and go to strike. That is something most dictators don't allow, but for some reason Tarquin and Malack seem fine with.

[Jaros]

No, what they mix up is who's in charge of which empire. The formula doesnt work unless there is a "lessor of 3 evils" available to pick from. So right now that is EoS and when one of the 3 empires gets overthrown it will change. Its probably a way to keep all 3 empires growing evenly, but if the "good" empire was simply too repressive, resistance movements would arise; and, as Tarquin says, that doesnt happen because his plan has contingencies for it. Mainly, a "not nearly as bad as the other two" choice has to exist at all times, and if that choice is changing at all, it means that the overall "good/evil" axis of the 3 empires is also in flux, most probably trending up. Note for instance, that for all of its oppression, the EoB allows its workers to unionize and go to strike. That is something most dictators don't allow, but for some reason Tarquin and Malack seem fine with.

It only has to be the better option FROM the specific nation's point of view. If the order of antagonising, conquering and 'liberating' is mixed up, then a different nation will see a different Empire as the good guys. Add in the heavy use of propaganda and any one can be seen to be the lesser of three evils (or even as good) from the subjects' point of view.

[Kish]

Note for instance, that for all of its oppression, the EoB allows its workers to unionize and go to strike.

You...don't see the irony in claiming "it allows its slave-drivers to unionize and go on strikes, refusing to whip their slaves until they get concessions explicitly for the slave-drivers, not the slaves" as an example of something good about the Empire of Blood?

There is not enough facepalm in the world.

[Dr.Epic]

Oh gee, I don't know.

I don't know. That could be the look of joy for some people.

[Flame of Anor]

The formula doesnt work unless there is a "lessor of 3 evils"

"Hi, I have three evils available for lease."

[rbetieh]

You...don't see the irony in claiming "it allows its slave-drivers to unionize and go on strikes, refusing to whip their slaves until they get concessions explicitly for the slave-drivers, not the slaves" as an example of something good about the Empire of Blood?

There is not enough facepalm in the world.

Don't hurt yourself

Yes you have identified how the audience is supposed to react to the scene, now since we are trying to have an analysis here, how about you (specifically) dig deeper. A simple assignment for you if you please: list everyone in the scence, whether or not they find it ironic, and your best guess as to why....

I will start you off, you have the Audience already, Elan is knocked out, and anything out of V is suspect since she is str drained. Ok, analyze away.

[Lvl45DM!]

No, what they mix up is who's in charge of which empire. The formula doesnt work unless there is a "lessor of 3 evils" available to pick from. So right now that is EoS and when one of the 3 empires gets overthrown it will change. Its probably a way to keep all 3 empires growing evenly, but if the "good" empire was simply too repressive, resistance movements would arise; and, as Tarquin says, that doesnt happen because his plan has contingencies for it. Mainly, a "not nearly as bad as the other two" choice has to exist at all times, and if that choice is changing at all, it means that the overall "good/evil" axis of the 3 empires is also in flux, most probably trending up. Note for instance, that for all of its oppression, the EoB allows its workers to unionize and go to strike. That is something most dictators don't allow, but for some reason Tarquin and Malack seem fine with.

No no if one empire keeps gaining power then everyone else will attack them, maybe even the elves. They have to stay about even. Plus if you've got a bunch of evil party members you don't wanna piss them off by favouring one group over the other two

[DougTheHead]

But was Tarquin ever a disappointment to Elan? He was told at a young age by his mother his father was ruthless.

I suppose the current storyline details Elan's disappointment with his father. They start out as great friends, and then Elan learns the truth and is horrified. He doesn't seem to put much stock in his mother's version of events, which makes sense- as a child of divorce, I can say that you learn pretty quickly to take anything Mom says about Dad (or vice-versa) with a grain of salt.

[rbetieh]

I suppose the current storyline details Elan's disappointment with his father. They start out as great friends, and then Elan learns the truth and is horrified. He doesn't seem to put much stock in his mother's version of events, which makes sense- as a child of divorce, I can say that you learn pretty quickly to take anything Mom says about Dad (or vice-versa) with a grain of salt.

Well, this last comic seems to show that Evil Dad is at least trying to be Helpful Evil Dad. Elan is kind of easy to impress, he acted the same way around Hinjo at the festival as he did around Tarquin on their day together. Ive often wondered if Elans philosophy is basically "Fun is....FUN!".

[MelTorefas]

Just want to chime in and say how awesome it was to see The Giant's posts in this thread. I was really loving the literary discussion the first couple pages had going on. :)

[Forikroder]

i wonder if this sort of patter (not only in this comic) is caused by the womans right movement where its become taboo to really take too many shots at women but men are now free game

think about how many shows you know with a dumb worthless often fat dad who messes everything up and the smart sexy wife who has to get him out of trouble all the time?

i think the pendulum has swung too far if the world was truly equal then we wouldnt be so sensitive about attacking women like we can attack men since we always ahve taht fear if we go jsut a tad too far we can get hit really hard

[The Troubadour]

This probably has been mentioned already, but perhaps you could read it as a sort of Oedipal struggle for the characters to get out of their fathers' shadows and establish their own identities?

That said, I'm inclined to believe this was mostly just coincidence - the Giant wanted to tell some stories, and it just so happened they coincided on some details.

Edit: D'oh! I have got to start reading the entire thread before posting. Sorry, folks.

[Dr.Epic]

Can we really call Roy's mom saintly considering..well...the Oracle said it best (10th panel)

[rbetieh]

I just remembered this comic It seems Elans conscience always suspected T was evil, I dont think T ever tried to convince Elan otherwise, so maybe Elans own disapointment is tied to the fact that his father likes to have Evil Fun instead of Fun fun?

[Nightmarenny]

Can we really call Roy's mom saintly considering..well...the Oracle said it best (10th panel)

Just because certain belief systems in the real world believe indiscriminate sex is immoral is no reason to assume that this worlds Gods do also.

In fact her making it in to the Lawful Good afterlife and never being in any way reprimanded implies the opposite.

Do I even need to mention that Thor and Aphrodite are good gods?

[Kish]

Can we really call Roy's mom saintly considering..well...the Oracle said it best (10th panel)

If you consider Roy's mother to have done something immoral, I'd suggest you quit hiding behind the kobold and say it yourself.

[DougTheHead]

Can we really call Roy's mom saintly considering..well...the Oracle said it best (10th panel)

In Roy's eyes she's certainly saintly, which is what makes the afterlife comics so funny- he's horrified by his dear old mother's athletic sex life. But her making into that afterlife at all is sufficient proof of her virtue (in the modern sense, not the 18th-century sense).

[rbetieh]

In Roy's eyes she's certainly saintly, which is what makes the afterlife comics so funny- he's horrified by his dear old mother's athletic sex life. But her making into that afterlife at all is sufficient proof of her virtue (in the modern sense, not the 18th-century sense).

I thought Celestia was a reward. Once you are in, you can do what you want. She was Saintly in life, right?

[Kish]

She was apparently fond of casual sex when she was alive, that being how she met Eugene. There's no indication she ever did anything wrong.

[lindorm]

In Roy's eyes she's certainly saintly, which is what makes the afterlife comics so funny- he's horrified by his dear old mother's athletic sex life. But her making into that afterlife at all is sufficient proof of her virtue (in the modern sense, not the 18th-century sense).

Who isn't horrified by their parents sex life?

Anyway, she doesn't need to be virtuous in the "modern" sense, she just need to be it in the LG sense. Even being a LG goodie-two-shoes, casual sex wouldn't adversely affect her alignment unless it was unlawfull (breaking a wow of chastity or marriage) or evil (forcing herself on someone).

[H Birchgrove]

Can we really call Roy's mom saintly considering..well...the Oracle said it best (10th panel)

The Oracle is a [four-letter explicitive of your choice], and it's not a coincidence his clients keep killing him.

[Ancalagon]

casual sex wouldn't adversely affect her alignment unless it was unlawfull (breaking a wow of chastity or marriage)

Even that might not break her Lawfullness. It's a dent, but if she's othervise very dedicated to lawful concepts, it might be even that would not necessarily turn out as show-stopper for her entering celestia.
Note she is neither Paladin nor cleric, so the rules are less strict for her. Note she only needs to be "mostly lawful" to be "let in".

The evil thing mentioned would probably interfere more with the "good" part, not the lawful part.

[Jaros]

I just remembered this comic It seems Elans conscience always suspected T was evil, I dont think T ever tried to convince Elan otherwise, so maybe Elans own disapointment is tied to the fact that his father likes to have Evil Fun instead of Fun fun?

I think this might be a case of it being easier to think someone's bad when they're not there or you don't know them. You ever been really annoyed at a friend for stuff they've been doing, or not, lately, but when you see them you just kind of forget about it because you're glad to see them? The joy of meeting his father might have just made him forget his previous conception of him as 'evil'.

[Holy_Knight]

I think this might be a case of it being easier to think someone's bad when they're not there or you don't know them. You ever been really annoyed at a friend for stuff they've been doing, or not, lately, but when you see them you just kind of forget about it because you're glad to see them? The joy of meeting his father might have just made him forget his previous conception of him as 'evil'.

Also remember that his idea of his father was "mean fighting guy", rather than evil per se. He could have thought that Nale turned out evil under his father's parenting without necessarily thinking that his father was evil too. Perhaps more importantly, when he finally met his father and Tarquin acted friendly and in some ways similar to him, the description he had didn't match what he was seeing (at first) so he probably subconsciously questioned what he'd always thought.