OOTS #816 - The Discussion Thread

[Bulldog Psion]

How do they know "Girard" wasn't an alias and the guy's real name is Orrin?!

Just because he looks younger... well, he's a master illusionist

Is it really easier to believe that Girard went through the trouble of making a fake identity and making himself look younger, than that it's a relative, probably his son or grandson?

Presumably, Girard had parents, and possibly brothers and sisters as well. It doesn't seem totally improbable that he managed to reproduce as well at some point during his life.

In other words, everyone seems to view it as some kind of weird, implausible theory that Orrin Draketooth could be, y'know, actually Orrin Draketooth a relative of Girard, and that logic is only restored by assuming it's Girard himself. That's the vibe I'm getting from a lot of comments here.

Is there some reason why it's improbable that Girard had a son? Or a nephew? Or a grandson? Did I miss something in the comic that declares emphatically that he's sterile, castrated, and incapable of being cloned, or something?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Is it really easier to believe that Girard went through the trouble of making a fake identity and making himself look younger, than that it's a relative, probably his son or grandson?

Presumably, Girard had parents, and possibly brothers and sisters as well. It doesn't seem totally improbable that he managed to reproduce as well at some point during his life.

In other words, everyone seems to view it as some kind of weird, implausible theory that Orrin Draketooth could be, y'know, actually Orrin Draketooth a relative of Girard, and that logic is only restored by assuming it's Girard himself. That's the vibe I'm getting from a lot of comments here.

Is there some reason why it's improbable that Girard had a son? Or a nephew? Or a grandson? Did I miss something in the comic that declares emphatically that he's sterile, castrated, and incapable of being cloned, or something?

Ian said he was sterile after a trap incident. There are some who believe Ian is Girard. Combine fact with crack-pot theory, Girard is sterile. Its repeated several times, eventually some one will remember it out of context and post it as fact. It will spread throughout the community until we see Draketooth(s) in-comic and the discussion thread will have a debate on his sterility.

[agnos]

The daughter is not Haley.

I don't normally say stuff like that so bluntly, but I thought it best to nip this one in the bud. Haley is 25 or so, Penelope's daughter would be 15. In fact, I put the line about it being 15 years in specifically to avoid people speculating that it was Haley.

Notice he only dispells the idea that Haley is the child and the Haley's dad isn't Orrin

[Blisstake]

Notice he only dispells the idea that Haley is the child and the Haley's dad isn't Orrin

Or that the child isn't Haley's mom.

[agnos]

Also, Orrin the the comic has the tattoo on the left side of his face whereas Girard has it on the right side of his face. Interesting thing to note.

[Kish]

Or that the child isn't Haley's mom.

Yes, he does not spell out that the character he says is/would be 15 now is not the mother of the character he says is 25 now.

Possibly he didn't think he needed to.

[Blisstake]

Yes, he does not spell out that the character he says is/would be 15 now is not the mother of the character he says is 25 now.

Possibly he didn't think he needed to.

That was the joke, yes.

[brionl]

If anyone but Tarquin killed his latest wife, I'm surprised that he let it stand at "killed by mysterious circumstances." I would have expected his ego to demand a full-scale investigation with bloody revenge at the end, even if he'd been planning to kill her himself in a week or so.

Yep. Where do you think Nale got his "Disproportionate Revenge" trait from anyway?

[brionl]

i wonder how big a 10 000 man army is in OoTS world

There were "under 9,000" defenders of Azure City, and "over 30,000" goblinoids & undead attacking. So, a fairly good sized army.

[Roland Itiative]

Is it just me or are there an awful lots of parallels between the Draketooth and the Starshine families appearing in this comic? Not trying to imply anything, by the way

I'm curious about this fifteen years old redhead, though.

[Blaznak]

So, we get an uber cool double strip the same day a new set of products is shamelessly plugged? Well played.... Now, where's my credit card...

[Jay R]

While we're spinning elaborate theories about normal familial similarities, does anyone want to do anything with the fact that Tarquin apparently shares Elan's Summon Plot Exposition spell?

[MesiDoomstalker]

While we're spinning elaborate theories about normal familial similarities, does anyone want to do anything with the fact that Tarquin apparently shares Elan's Summon Plot Exposition spell?

No magic aura unfrtunatly.

[Geordnet]

Oooo, double-length!

Things are definately starting to speed up!

(I wonder how long until Team Evil's back too?)

[Pory]

Uh-oh I have the feeling there are gonna be a big nasty reunion at Girard's gate

[TheCoolThatguy]

All this discussion about the (slim) possibility that Haley may be a Draketooth, I'm surprised that people are overlooking just how much of a scumbag the family seems to be.

So Orrin Draketooth seduces a woman, knocks her up, and as soon as he possibly can, he disappears with their child and, oh yeah, wipes out her bank account. And ultimately, Penelope dies without ever again seeing her daughter.

Meanwhile (presumably), the daughter is forced to defend the gate, having known nothing else in her life. God only knows what lies she's been fed by her kidnapper father/family.

In terms of pure scum-baggery, that's up there with Xykon best/worst acts. I only hope that when this arc is finished, Penelope's daughter is the only survivor of the Draketooth clan. She's the only one who deserves to be.

[FlawedParadigm]

Also, because I am already tired of the phrase "Penelope's daughter" - who is going to be discussed 14,000 times in epileptic tree discussions - I propose that until Rich names her in-comic, we simply refer to her as Penda (PENelope's DAughter.)

That will be all, thank you.

[Shoelessgdowar]

I just realized something.
Someone scried on the Order when they were at the site of Girard's false gate.

Someone with a green magic aura.

Zz'dtri's magic is green.

This supports that the Linear Guild killed Penelope to prevent the Order from finding out more about Girard's gate

You just now realized that it was Z that was scrying on the group in the desert? I thought everyone knew that since Z's big reveal after stoning Haley.

This has already been discussed to death before and there is only two reasonable conclusion to draw from it: firstly, Soon died only a few years after the even at the gates. Considering the fact that he already had graying hair and beard back when he was adventuring (and also that his plan for protecting the gate involved becoming a ghost), this isnt so surprising. Soon was much older then the two others. Secondly, Shojo age is exagerated, hes in his sixty. Just go look at the timeline for more details but even though Roy call him an octogenarian (and really, why the hell would Roy know his age anyway), Shojo simply could not be much older then around 65. Also he got a nephew that look somewhere between 20-35, not a great-nephew mind you, just a nephew.

In other words, even without getting into the many ways an epic level spellcaster can live longer then other humans (and theres a lot of those by the way) theres nothing weird about Girard and Durokan being still alive. And if you do get into the ways an epic level spellcaster can live longer then Girard could be 200 years old and still be a perfectly normal human. Hell, you dont even have to be a spellcaster, theres an epic feat to live longer. A feat! And its stackable! A human epic level fighter could easely live to be 200 years old if he had no other epic feat he wanted to take.

Yes, Girard could definitely be around, yes it is possible Girard is still making kids, but I think odds are Orrin is his son or grandson.

That said, I think people are missing a more obvious twist; Haley is related to the Draketooths, but not by Ian. Haley's mom's last name has never been stated. If you had a family as dementedly paranoid and jerkish as Girard/Orrin, then wouldn't running away to a different continent be what you'd do?

Side note: Actually, Shojo could easily be an old uncle to a young nephew. My Uncle is about to have his 5th biological child. I am 35 (19 years younger then my own uncle), his oldest adopted child is 3 months my younger, his oldest biological child is 6 years my younger (that means 29 years between two of my cousins, by the same father). My grandmother was in her early thirties when she had my mother (her only child). If you combined a situation like my cousins and the age my mother was born at. 29 (age difference) + 32 (age of younger sibling when they have child) = 61 years old when a niece/nephew is born, which means Shojo could easily be an octogenarian when his nephew is in his 20s or 30s, and actually most extreme scenario could have had 39 year old nephew to 100 year old uncle, so Shojo being late 70s/early 80s is not even an issue. Girard however could be like my uncle and been making babies with wife after wife well into his 50s, 60s, or as my great-grandparents did 70s, 80s, or 90s (My great grandfather lost all his children by his first wife in the pograms, in his late 30s he married by great grandmother who was younger then his lost daughters had been, around 17 or 18 by census records, then had my grandfather and his baby brother nearly 30 years apart, not mentioning the brother older then my grandfather by 5 years... you can do the math on how old my great grandfather was when he was raising his youngest son)

Anyone else wondering just how many Draketooths there are now? Given Girard's extreme distrust of pretty much anyone outside family, I could totally see him trying to breed a literal army of children, and instructing his own children to do the same . . . I could see there being around 50 - 100 of Girard's family members (especially if Girard had any siblings and convinced them to help him out) in Windy Canyon once the Order finally gets there.

I'd spread them all over, why just have the army in the valley when you can have a global information network.

All this discussion about the (slim) possibility that Haley may be a Draketooth, I'm surprised that people are overlooking just how much of a scumbag the family seems to be.

So Orrin Draketooth seduces a woman, knocks her up, and as soon as he possibly can, he disappears with their child and, oh yeah, wipes out her bank account. And ultimately, Penelope dies without ever again seeing her daughter.

Meanwhile (presumably), the daughter is forced to defend the gate, having known nothing else in her life. God only knows what lies she's been fed by her kidnapper father/family.

In terms of pure scum-baggery, that's up there with Xykon best/worst acts. I only hope that when this arc is finished, Penelope's daughter is the only survivor of the Draketooth clan. She's the only one who deserves to be.

That depends on who we consider family. If we accept Haley is a decedent of Girard (by either parent) then she too deserves to live, but granted, Orrin and Girard are proving to be vying for worst monsters of the story with Xykon (his works speak for themselves), Tarquin (200-foot tall flaming letters, among other things), and the Snarl (Killing Aphrodite... that is just wrong!!!).

[AutomatedTeller]

All this discussion about the (slim) possibility that Haley may be a Draketooth, I'm surprised that people are overlooking just how much of a scumbag the family seems to be.

So Orrin Draketooth seduces a woman, knocks her up, and as soon as he possibly can, he disappears with their child and, oh yeah, wipes out her bank account. And ultimately, Penelope dies without ever again seeing her daughter.

Meanwhile (presumably), the daughter is forced to defend the gate, having known nothing else in her life. God only knows what lies she's been fed by her kidnapper father/family.

In terms of pure scum-baggery, that's up there with Xykon best/worst acts. I only hope that when this arc is finished, Penelope's daughter is the only survivor of the Draketooth clan. She's the only one who deserves to be.

Well, I agree that Orrin seems to be a jerk. Girard seems to be a bit of a jerk, too - I mean, he clearly didn't trust Soon at all, even though Soon clearly didn't deserve it.

But I don't really see how taking (your own) daughter and stealing money is even in the same league as Xykon, who kills and tortures because he's bored. I wouldn't put Orrin on the same level as Thog or even Belkar.

[TheCoolThatguy]

Well, I agree that Orrin seems to be a jerk. Girard seems to be a bit of a jerk, too - I mean, he clearly didn't trust Soon at all, even though Soon clearly didn't deserve it.

But I don't really see how taking (your own) daughter and stealing money is even in the same league as Xykon, who kills and tortures because he's bored. I wouldn't put Orrin on the same level as Thog or even Belkar.

Because he stole a mother from her child to raise said child as a soldier/weapon. Simply because he's her father does not give him the right to keep his daughter from her mother (and vice versa).

If breeding your own child soldiers isn't wrong, I dunno what is.

[AutomatedTeller]

Because he stole a mother from her child to raise said child as a soldier/weapon. Simply because he's her father does not give him the right to keep his daughter from her mother (and vice versa).

If breeding your own child soldiers isn't wrong, I dunno what is.

Of course it's wrong.

It's not even close to being as bad as mass murderers (Xykon, Nale, Tarquin)

[Adama]

Anyone else getting the sudden impression that Iain "knowing a place" as they run off into the desert to hide is going to be with the Draketooths in Windy Canyon? I mean, he does fit with their type well. Even if he's not strictly with them it certainly makes sense that he would have tried to recruit them for the rebellion.

That's what I'm thinking too. I don't think there's a blood relation (it would be a little too convenient if there were), but he's chaotic, paranoid, has no respect for authority, and steals for a living. They're practically on the same side already. Plus, given his type it would make a lot of sense if the Draketooth clan maintained connections with various thieves' guilds, for gathering intel if nothing else. Even without a direct relation, Ian might well know of Girard, had dealings with him, or know someone who has.

Also, I agree with the premise that Girard is probably still alive in person, in addition to however many children and grandchildren he's managed to produce.

he remembers Nale trying to turn him against Haley, and has figured that he may use similar tactics again?

Plus, diplomacy is a class skill for him. Granted, he might not USE it much. But everyone else is accustomed to thinking in terms of either combat strength or straight deception. They're also the good guys--they're not used to the idea that the truth could screw them with other good guys.

Any bets that the next words out of Tarquin's mouth are, "Oh, and Mr. Greenhilt? Since this is a race now, I'll save you the time of continuing to pretend you and my son don't know each other. Now hurry up and find the Draketooths."

That would be awesome. Particularly since Tarquin seems to have been "ignoring" an awful lot of highly suspicious comments on the part of the Order.

i wonder how big a 10 000 man army is in OoTS world

Well, 30,000 hobgoblins were enough to overrun--by sheer wave attacks, no real treachery or superior technology-- what Eugene Greenhilt described as "one of the oldest bastions of good on the mortal plane." So I'm guessing 10,000 men, in the fractious and disorganized environment of the western continent, would constitute one hell of a force.

[TheCoolThatguy]

Of course it's wrong.

It's not even close to being as bad as mass murderers (Xykon, Nale, Tarquin)

In terms of scale, no. But in terms of cold bloodness and ruthlessness, it's about equal.

[Ron Miel]

Because he stole a mother from her child to raise said child as a soldier/weapon. Simply because he's her father does not give him the right to keep his daughter from her mother (and vice versa).

If breeding your own child soldiers isn't wrong, I dunno what is.

From where are you getting the idea that she was to be raised as a soldier/ weapon?

Is it possible that he stole her because he loved her?

[TheCoolThatguy]

From where are you getting the idea that she was to be raised as a soldier/ weapon?

Is it possible that he stole her because he loved her?

Haley's comment, which would fit what we know. And if love was Orrin's only motive, why would he exclude his daughter's mother entirely?

[Ravian]

You just now realized that it was Z that was scrying on the group in the desert? I thought everyone knew that since Z's big reveal after stoning Haley

Sorry I only recently joined the forums, this is my first time posting on a discussion thread, in fact I only started reading OOTS slightly after Z showed up to stone Haley.

[Poppy Appletree]

His ninth wife telling him that she has a lead on her lost daughter and is planning to go for her, thus burdening Tarquin with a (step)child, is reason enough for him to kill her on the spot.

A red-headed stepchild, no less.

[Zea mays]

All this discussion about the (slim) possibility that Haley may be a Draketooth, I'm surprised that people are overlooking just how much of a scumbag the family seems to be.

So Orrin Draketooth seduces a woman, knocks her up, and as soon as he possibly can, he disappears with their child and, oh yeah, wipes out her bank account. And ultimately, Penelope dies without ever again seeing her daughter.

Meanwhile (presumably), the daughter is forced to defend the gate, having known nothing else in her life. God only knows what lies she's been fed by her kidnapper father/family.

Tarquin's story does cast this Orrin in a bad light. We know he's not lying, but he may not have disclosed the whole truth, (or he may not even know the whole truth).

If Tarquin intended to marry Penelope, he could easily have arranged to make her current husband and child and all of her money "disappear" in order to erm, expedite his courtship.

Or maybe not. , we barely know anything about Orrin. He may really be a total #$%^ and the Order will still to make an ally of him.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Tarquin's story does cast this Orrin in a bad light. We know he's not lying, but he may not have disclosed the whole truth, (or he may not even know the whole truth).

If Tarquin intended to marry Penelope, he could easily have arranged to make her current husband and child and all of her money "disappear" in order to erm, expedite his courtship.

Or maybe not. , we barely know anything about Orrin. He may really be a total #$%^ and the Order will still to make an ally of him.

Except Orrin stole the girl and the money 15 years prior to Penelope meeting Tarquin. And cue the baseless theory that Tarquin is a time traveling villain.

[rbetieh]

Tarquin's story does cast this Orrin in a bad light. We know he's not lying, but he may not have disclosed the whole truth, (or he may not even know the whole truth).

If Tarquin intended to marry Penelope, he could easily have arranged to make her current husband and child and all of her money "disappear" in order to erm, expedite his courtship.

Or maybe not. , we barely know anything about Orrin. He may really be a total #$%^ and the Order will still to make an ally of him.

15 years ago? While married to his 5th or 6th. Wife? Why?

Totally got ninjad