(New RPG) Rogue: Clandestine Operations (comments are welcome)

[Vixsor Lumin]

When tactical rounds are used, your speed is 5 per action. So, if you take a "double move", you can move 10 squares. With a Mobility check you can increase your speed as per the skill description.

I don't know if that's an elegant way to handle tactical movement, but we'll see how it works in practise.

Ok I think that works. On Team Garrote's map does 1 . Equal 1 square?

[Kensen]

Ok I think that works. On Team Garrote's map does 1 . Equal 1 square?

Yes, the ...'s are floor squares.

[Kensen]

Rules that need to be added, updated, clarified or rewritten:

* Wounds and recovery: While combat is fast and lethal and shall remain that way, it is usually fair to give the characters a chance to recover from their wounds.

* Two-weapon fighting rules: TWF shall not be so good as to be a no-brainer, nor should it be completely useless.

* Drawing while moving and other simultaneous actions.

* Item rarity and/or legality classes: poisons, uniforms and other rare items. For example, a good way to limit the availability of such items is to give max 1 rare item per person for each mission. Legality classes: restricted, military or illegal.

* Moving, fighting and using skills in the dark, and illumination effects.

* TNs for building a prototype or a copy of a design, and material availability penalties and bonuses when using Gadgetry

* Initiative rules.

* All new objects shall be added to the list: wrist sheath, garrote, poison, staff, hunting/bodyguard license, uniforms and other disguises.

* Other benefits from ranks than just +bonus: Should some skill uses be "trained only"? Should higher ranks unlock other benefits?

* Dirty tricks, improvised weapons.

* Possible new skills: Physique (resist poison, tough it out, break things),
Throwing, Medicine (examine, revive), Explosives, Lore?

Anything else that should be added or clarified? Any ideas on how to implement the suggested changes above?

[Eldest]

Rules that need to be added, updated, clarified or rewritten:

* Wounds and recovery: While combat is fast and lethal and shall remain that way, it is usually fair to give the characters a chance to recover from their wounds.

Maybe a four step health system: you're fine, wounded, crippled, dead.

* Two-weapon fighting rules: TWF shall not be so good as to be a no-brainer, nor should it be completely useless.

I like the current idea. Maybe say you can't attack with the same weapon twice a round, so if I wanted to attack twice I would need a knife in the other hand?

* Drawing while moving and other simultaneous actions.

Have one be the main action (like the moving) and don't make them roll for that. The other (like the drawing) would be a suplemental action and you'd have to make a roll for it. Maybe a TN around 15?

* Item rarity and/or legality classes: poisons, uniforms and other rare items. For example, a good way to limit the availability of such items is to give max 1 rare item per person for each mission. Legality classes: restricted, military or illegal.

No idea, sorry.

* Moving, fighting and using skills in the dark, and illumination effects.

Move at half speed without penalty, if you move faster/try other stuff have a penalty to the roll (-2 to -5, depending on what they're trying to do).

* TNs for building a prototype or a copy of a design, and material availability penalties and bonuses when using Gadgetry

Also no idea.

* Initiative rules.

If you want to make it one skill, I'd recomend any of Awareness, Fighting, or Mobility. Or just tell people to use their best skill out of those three to roll.

* All new objects shall be added to the list: wrist sheath, garrote, poison, staff, hunting/bodyguard license, uniforms and other disguises.

Don't need my help here.

* Other benefits from ranks than just +bonus: Should some skill uses be "trained only"? Should higher ranks unlock other benefits?

No, and yes. Maybe steal an idea from D&D and have high ranks (11+) in a skill give a bonus to one or two other skills.

* Dirty tricks, improvised weapons.

Seems like it fits the best under Fighting. Maybe have people with at least 6 in Fighting be able to do an ability, 8 do another, 10 another, etc. Then you'd have to make similar stuff for the other skills, though.

* Possible new skills: Physique (resist poison, tough it out, break things),
Throwing, Medicine (examine, revive), Explosives, Lore?

Have Throwing work with Archery, Explosives with Gadgetry, and I like the other three.

Anything else that should be added or clarified? Any ideas on how to implement the suggested changes above?

Suggestions are in green.

[Yitzi]

Another idea: If someone devises a cover story or lie that simply can't work (it contradicts known facts that the target will know as well), they're entitled to a Guile check to realize that and not use it.

[Vixsor Lumin]

I like the added ranks unlocking new things, but I think you should still be able to try things untrained. If my character got seperated from my team, and couldn't make untrained checks, I would die. I can lie a little and shoot stuff that's it. I wouldn't be able to fight in close quarters, I couldn't steal anything, experiance shows that a simple lock is my mortal enemy, etc. But I can still try things which I love.

I really like the idea for the 4 step health system. And maybe add a penalty at each one and require some kind of kit to heal someone. That way people can't just say, "ill fight till I'm crippled and run away." It adds more fear of danger to the game but not enought to not take risks.

EDIT: also if you add new skills I think you should boost the starting exp pool a little. I felt it was perfect for what we had but I would want to add some ranks in medicine if we had started with it, but I wouldn't want to hurt my stats at all. I already took from guile so I could have a higher archery

[Kensen]

I understand why you like the idea of a four-tier health system better than the binary healthy/dead system, but that would also make the game more difficult and combat much slower. If it takes three hits to drop an enemy, he'll have a plenty of time to raise an alarm, and a round of surprise attacks becomes much less effective if you only manage to wound your opponents, not kill them.

Also, it'll take three times as many rounds to play a battle. I like the idea that it doesn't take days or weeks (OOC) to find out who wins. I also think real-life swordfights were usually short and brutal, not to mention bows and other projectile weapons you can use to one-shot an enemy from a distance.

If I give the PCs four tiers and NPCs only two tiers to remedy the above problem, the odds become oddly skewed in the PCs' favor, and in the current scenario you would not have had to resort to any sort of guile or subterfuge to capture the captain.

How would you solve these problems?

Currently the system is rather gritty, but what I had in mind was that a hit doesn't usually result in instant death. Your allies can revive you and you can continue the mission, albeit with some penalties, much like Laura's character did. That way it's still quite gritty but also forgiving.

I really like what Eldest suggested for initiative. It's brilliant in its simplicity and I also had something similar in mind, so I'm going to use that. In other words, when you roll init, you can use the best of Awareness, Mobility or Fighting to roll.

[Vixsor Lumin]

What if, like my character, you have two of those that are the same? I have Fighting 0, Awareness 4, Mobility 4.

[SamBurke]

Suggestion: You have to beat the fighting roll by a certain amount; every 3 you beat it by, the next category up of damage you deal.

Let's say the TN is 10, and the attacker rolled 19; they dealt 1 damage rank, moving their target from Fine down to Wounded. However, they had +9 extra to the roll, so they did 3 extra categories of damage (9/3=3). That way, if you do decently, you'll kill people anyway (as in real life), but if you dodge well, you kill, too.

Also, say that you get a massive penalty at wounded, and are incapacitated/unconcious at crippled. To end combat, you now only need to move enemies down to incapacitated. This'd be like punching your enemies, the way they do in movies.

[Almagesto]

You could also try taking a look at the Hitman series for PC. It's a really good way to start he brainstorming needed for your assassination ops.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Suggestion: You have to beat the fighting roll by a certain amount; every 3 you beat it by, the next category up of damage you deal.

Let's say the TN is 10, and the attacker rolled 19; they dealt 1 damage rank, moving their target from Fine down to Wounded. However, they had +9 extra to the roll, so they did 3 extra categories of damage (9/3=3). That way, if you do decently, you'll kill people anyway (as in real life), but if you dodge well, you kill, too.

Also, say that you get a massive penalty at wounded, and are incapacitated/unconcious at crippled. To end combat, you now only need to move enemies down to incapacitated. This'd be like punching your enemies, the way they do in movies.

Aaww but I liked killing people in one hit and it has the potential to screw archery. If I cripple a guy on a roof top and he falls out of view, he could have a teammate heal him which brings him back up and I have to keep killing him.

Maybe PC's get three: fine, wounded, dead. And NPC's get two: fine and dead. This is excluding special attacks, like shot in the leg, disarmed, getting hit with a sap, and things like that

[Cieyrin]

Aaww but I liked killing people in one hit and it has the potential to screw archery. If I cripple a guy on a roof top and he falls out of view, he could have a teammate heal him which brings him back up and I have to keep killing him.

Maybe PC's get three: fine, wounded, dead. And NPC's get two: fine and dead. This is excluding special attacks, like shot in the leg, disarmed, getting hit with a sap, and things like that

Trained people are more likely to kill or maim at their leisure, thus bring those skill bonuses more to bear. In your case with the falling maimed guy, wouldn't he take more damage from falling off a roof? Hurt people aren't so good at making soft landings, y'know.

[Kensen]

I've thought about having different effects for "varying degrees of success" (I think I probably mentioned that somewhere earlier in this thread...) but haven't been able to decide how it should work, exactly.

In a way, Seira in the playtest went through three different conditions: that of being "fine", then being stabbed in the gut and losing consciousness and a lot of blood (I decided that killing her would have been too cruel so I gave her allies a chance to revive her), and finally, being patched up (with some penalties). So basically, the condition track would look like this: Fine -> Dying -> (Bandaged) -> Dead. If a dying or bandaged character is hit again (or say, falls off a roof... ) he'll die. That way, you don't have to "kill" the same soldier over and over again. You only live twice... per scenario.

What if, like my character, you have two of those that are the same? I have Fighting 0, Awareness 4, Mobility 4.

That's easy to answer: the best of 4, 4 and 0 is 4, of course. Doesn't matter which skill of the three skills you use, only the bonus matters.

You could also try taking a look at the Hitman series for PC. It's a really good way to start he brainstorming needed for your assassination ops.

I've read some articles about the games but never played them. Assuming that you had the time to read through the playtest rules (in the first two posts of this thread), what things in particular would you recommend borrowing from those games?

[Laura Eternata]

I personally thought the method used for Seira was perfectly fair. You should probably increase the penalties, though; I can't speak from experience, but I imagine getting stabbed in the gut would be a bit more impactful than rendering the stabbee 10% less mobile.

There should also be a time limit. If Bob the Fighter gets shot and is found an hour later, it's probably too late to save him.

Also, for initiative, can archery be substituted for fighting if the character is wielding a ranged weapon?

[Eldest]

I actually meant for the fine-wounded-crippled-dead scale be for when you recover. So it depends on now badly you got hit for how well you recover. The actually damage was still meant to be fine-not fine.
And the wounded would give -2, and the crippled -4. Fine and dead have obvious effects.

[Kensen]

I personally thought the method used for Seira was perfectly fair. You should probably increase the penalties, though; I can't speak from experience, but I imagine getting stabbed in the gut would be a bit more impactful than rendering the stabbee 10% less mobile.

There should also be a time limit. If Bob the Fighter gets shot and is found an hour later, it's probably too late to save him.

Also, for initiative, can archery be substituted for fighting if the character is wielding a ranged weapon?

Yes I agree, the penalties should be heavier than just -2 on one skill.

And yes a time limit makes sense. Maybe the amount by which the attack roll beat your TN should determine how much time you have left. If your enemy beats it by 5, you only have a minute or so to receive first aid. If he beats it by 10, you'll die if you don't receive first aid within one round. Or something like that... If a medicine skill exists, the skill check should also affect the time after which a character can still be revived.

I'd say no to substituting archery for fighting when rolling for initiative. Shooting doesn't develop a similar sense of timing and instinctive defenses like close-quarters fighting does... well that's how I see it. Seira should not have a problem with that as her Awareness is even better than her Archery.

I actually meant for the fine-wounded-crippled-dead scale be for when you recover. So it depends on now badly you got hit for how well you recover. The actually damage was still meant to be fine-not fine.
And the wounded would give -2, and the crippled -4. Fine and dead have obvious effects.

I'll think about this condition track you suggested and the similar four conditions I discussed above, and I'll have to decide how these penalties interact with hits that aren't intended to kill the target, such as targeting the legs.

[Laura Eternata]

And yes a time limit makes sense. Maybe the amount by which the attack roll beat your TN should determine how much time you have left. If your enemy beats it by 5, you only have a minute or so to receive first aid. If he beats it by 10, you'll die if you don't receive first aid within one round. Or something like that... If a medicine skill exists, the skill check should also affect the time after which a character can still be revived.

I don't know about the medicine bit. I guess it depends on the severity of the wound. In Seira's case, the most she could have done to stop the bleeding was cover the wound with her cloak, which most people would do despite a complete lack of medicinal training (case in point, me. ) Physique would make more sense, assuming you add that skill as well. Unless I misunderstand it, it seems to basically be Shadowrun's "Body" stat, representing physical prowess and general toughness. To me, that seems to be what would keep an injured character alive, even if they're unconscious and unable to administer any kind of medical attention to themselves.

I'd say no to substituting archery for fighting when rolling for initiative. Shooting doesn't develop a similar sense of timing and instinctive defenses like close-quarters fighting does... well that's how I see it. Seira should not have a problem with that as her Awareness is even better than her Archery.

I suppose you're right. Archery training would be more focused on accuracy than speed, come to think of it. And I wasn't concerned about Seira; I've had a blast throughout the playtest and plan to use these rules myself once they're complete, so I was just looking for clarification.

[Kensen]

I don't know about the medicine bit. I guess it depends on the severity of the wound. In Seira's case, the most she could have done to stop the bleeding was cover the wound with her cloak, which most people would do despite a complete lack of medicinal training (case in point, me. ) Physique would make more sense, assuming you add that skill as well. Unless I misunderstand it, it seems to basically be Shadowrun's "Body" stat, representing physical prowess and general toughness. To me, that seems to be what would keep an injured character alive, even if they're unconscious and unable to administer any kind of medical attention to themselves.



I suppose you're right. Archery training would be more focused on accuracy than speed, come to think of it. And I wasn't concerned about Seira; I've had a blast throughout the playtest and plan to use these rules myself once they're complete, so I was just looking for clarification.

I meant the Medicine skill of the character administering first aid. But the Physique stat should also affect your ability to withstand injuries.

If you use the rules in a PbP or tabletop game, I hope I get to hear how it goes, and if there's any rules-related feedback, I could use it to further develop the game.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Is Aly still in the game?

[SamBurke]

Yes, I am... I'm just stalking, because there's not much my character can actually *do*, with my skills.

[Vixsor Lumin]

Ah, gotcha

[Cieyrin]

Yes, I am... I'm just stalking, because there's not much my character can actually *do*, with my skills.

Not necessarily true, as a clever idea can make up for lack of skill. Like in the Rook's version of the scenario, my character is not trained at all in Fighting yet grabbed onto the nearest thing to extricate himself anyways. At this point of the game, a smile from the RNG can still beat DCs. As long as you're not trying to bust through walls like the Juggernaut as an 80 pound sick guy or picking a lock with a needle in the dark when you barely understand how a doorknob works, you should be fine. It's a playtest, we're supposed to be testing.

[SamBurke]

Well, I can pick locks like a baus, that's for sure.

[Laura Eternata]

I meant the Medicine skill of the character administering first aid. But the Physique stat should also affect your ability to withstand injuries.

Oh.

Well, alrighty then!

(My reading comprehension fails me yet again...)

If you use the rules in a PbP or tabletop game, I hope I get to hear how it goes, and if there's any rules-related feedback, I could use it to further develop the game.

I will. If I can talk my brother into it, we'll try a one-on-one game tonight and I can get back to you tomorrow.

[BarroomBard]

I think a good solution for the wound tracks idea, would be to use the idea of Mooks and Tough Guys used in many RPGs. Most NPCs will be Mooks, simple, one hit minions who go down easy. Important NPCs would be Tough Guys, who have wound tracks like PCs.

[Laura Eternata]

Well, the impression I got from both the playtest and the game I'm currently running in person (don't worry, everyone, I'll be back with a full report once it's done!) is that the game really isn't designed for "bosses." Commanders and the like die just as easily as everyone else in reality, which this system represents quite nicely. Sure, it leads to TPKs more often than D&D or even Shadowrun, but in my experience that's part of its charm. As I believe Kensen said at some point, their's nothing wrong with using wound tracks as alternate rules for live play, but at least in PbP (which is what the game's designed for) it's just quicker and easier to have everyone go down in one shot.

In my game, I've instituted a "glancing blow" system (if a character's attack roll misses by one point, they deliver a glancing blow instead, which gives a -1 to fighting and archery or fighting and mobility as determined by a 1d2 roll until the end of the battle), but I think that would just get annoying in PbP.

Speaking of my game, I have a question for you, Kensen. What do you consider to be "average" scores in each ability? I've been using 3, which seems to be working, but I'm curious as to what you had originally intended.

[IcemanJRC]

I am highly interested. So far the system seems sound and I'd appreciate a place in the next playtest. Until then I fill pop in periodically to contribute to discussion. Good job indeed.

[Vixsor Lumin]

My team seems to have dissapeared we should probably hurry this up so the rooks can run the second part

[Eldest]

I'm here. And bored.
@IcemanJRC: You would probably join the Garrotes, as the Rooks (my team) has four people and they only have three.

[Snowfire]

I...wow. I like. I like a lot!

It sort of reminds me of a much simpler version of the old Mechwarrior RPG - the level of lethality etc.

Please count me in for the next playtest, if you can take another player. I'd really like to see how this plays.