Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[WhamBamSam]

Going through all those bands, that's a very solid list. Mine is less so. It's basically "Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, Anthrax, rinse, repeat". I just can't enjoy any other metal, because it's "unpleasant". I don't know what words to describe, but there's a difference between unpleasant songs, and unpleasant band members. You'd be intimidated to meet a member of a band, for sure, but you'd be less frightened if they didn't wear makeup onstage, didn't defecate onstage, etc. Sure, makeup's a part of the effect, but I don't think anyone can have a conversation with Ozzy Osbourne, and walk away calling it "perfectly normal" and "totally sane". Joey Belladonna might seem quite a bit friendlier.

Oh, and Dave Mustaine is a pretty nice guy, from what I've seen. He's even been on Jeopardy. He knows his Elton John.

Eh? What does it even matter what the members of the bands are like? As far as I'm concerned the only important thing about music is, strangely enough, the music.

Whatever, I'll play along. What exactly makes you think that the average member of a non-Big 4 metal band is so unpleasant? There's nothing really all that wrong with the whole make-up thing, and even if there was, it's been out of vogue in every sub-genre except Black Metal for a while now. Power Metal bands seem to be made up almost entirely of good-natured nerds like you or I, and in general, I don't see any real reason to suspect that being part of a moderately successful band would make someone much more likely to be a douche than the average metalhead. Still, if you need more assurance, I have a proposition for you. This Friday, I'm going to go see Iced Earth - a band that you should absolutely love given how much you like Metallica - and the VIP package that I bought includes a meet-and-greet with the band so I'll be able to tell you firsthand what Schaffer and company are like.

My point is that I don't like bands that try to be "gritty" and "hardcore", and essentially go way over the top. I tend to stray from a lot of bands, even Slayer, for those reasons.

Relevant. That's an interview from back in the day with the father of Death Metal, Chuck Shuldiner. Among other things he talks about how the band name "Death" is just a name to suit the music, and how he isn't about being "brutal for the sake of being brutal."

I'll think of it as "barely reasonable" when he makes his way to a controller for the first time in his undeath. In the meantime, he's basically beating down a show he doesn't watch.

Isn't that basically what you're doing now? Just saying.

The thing is, for every band that acts "gritty" and "hardcore" to fit an image, there's another that's just genuinely made up of... uh, for lack of a better word, interesting people. If you put Zombie Seth Putnam, Varg, Steven O'Malley, Matt Pike, and let's say Steve Albini in a room, I think that'd be enough weird in one place to curdle milk.

...I am aware Steve Albini is not metal. I just think the image of him in a room with those guys'd be hilarious.

The concentration of weird could rapidly drop off in the not terribly unlikely event of Varg deciding to murder one of the others though.

Or on second thought, maybe it could be kept stable. Zombie Putnam would be consuming the brains of the fallen, after all.

[Moff Chumley]

I'm unsure of whether Varg could do in Pike... and I'm pretty sure Albini and O'Malley would both stick around as some form of undead. O'Malley'd definitely be a lich, and Albini'd be whichever one is animated by pure spite.

[Faulty]

Albini is a man who cannot die.

[Feytalist]

By most accounts, Chuck Shuldiner was quite a nice guy.


I think I skipped most of those steps of black metal. I jumped in with Bathory, and skipped straight to the avant-garde stuff. Heh. Anyway, I tend to like the Viking side of things more.


New Epica's out. Gonna pick it up sometime this week.

[Nameless]

Black metal wasn't a fad in the beginning, and has never been, on the whole, as a genre, a fad. Sure there are faddy bands, or bands that try really hard to immitate a specific sound, which is where a lot of "industrial" or "avant-garde" BM comes from, but black metal isn't. It's beginnings were incredibly diverse. Listen to first wave bands like Bathory and Sarcófago, and then the early to mid 90s work of bands like Mayhem, Darkthrone, Ildjarn, Burzum, Beherit, Sigh, Mutiilation, Black Funeral or Havohej. Sure, all those bands are black metal, but from the start it was a very (I'd dare say) individualistic and avant-garde genre of music, that has since both proliferated and stayed solid. You still have bands like Sargeist, who play a more traditional black metal sound, and also bands like Deathspell Omega, that have pushed the envelope of the genre much more. You have small labels that specialize in black metal and will release tapes and vinyl and CDrs with crappy and cheap inserts despite how completely unprofitable that is, and you have fans who will buy that stuff. Canadian black metal fans will mail well hidden cash to Polish distros to get a cassette mailed to them. That's the thing about cult genres, they have a specific sound that remains present over time despite expansions within the genre, and a very dedicated fan and artist base that will operate underground for no reason other than the music. You see it with hardcore punk or extreme industrial as well.

It all comes down to this: black metal, extreme punk, extreme industrial, and other cult genres are going to be alive decades from now. People will still be listening to Discharge and Darkthrone and Whitehouse and Amebix and Throbbing Gristle and Mayhem, and they'll still be making black metal and power electronics and noise and crust punk. In ten years, there's still going to be a black metal tape trade, and people recording black metal with cheap equipment in their basements, while Alcest and the wannabes trying to keep a firm grip on Neige's coat tails are going to be replaced by the Next Big Thing.

I think I didn't explain myself properly. I never said that early trad Black Metal was a fad. What I'm saying is that you're approaching the Black Metal Shoegaze scene with a similer attitude that many people approached the old BM scene with. I've heard countless of people say how that was just a fad, just a bunch of bands copying one another with everyone wanting to be the next Mayhem. While it was probebly the case with some bands, as a whole it just wasn't true. It's a slightly ignorant view and what you're saying about Alcest and "Blackgaze" (or whatever you want to call it) is sort of echoing that. You're seeing it as fad in the same way those people saw Black Metal as a fad and in doing so, when you yourself are into a genre that recieved similar ctiricism, it makes you come across as a bit of a hypocrite, a little indirectly, maybe. It most deffinately isn't just full of "wannabes". It's a genre many people, including myself, genuinly appreciate and enjoy in the same way you and so many others appreciate the 90's Black Metal sound.

[Triscuitable]

[QUOTE=WhamBamSam;12880715

Isn't that basically what you're doing now? Just saying.
[/QUOTE]

No, Ebert, as far as I know, hasn't touched a controller in his life. However, I have listened to all genres of metal that have been mentioned here. Initially, I didn't, but as of now, I have.

The difference is I now bother to listen before criticism.

[grimbold]

The thing is, for every band that acts "gritty" and "hardcore" to fit an image, there's another that's just genuinely made up of... uh, for lack of a better word, interesting people. If you put Zombie Seth Putnam, Varg, Steven O'Malley, Matt Pike, and let's say Steve Albini in a room, I think that'd be enough weird in one place to curdle milk.

...I am aware Steve Albini is not metal. I just think the image of him in a room with those guys'd be hilarious.

moff you are brillant...

[WhamBamSam]

No, Ebert, as far as I know, hasn't touched a controller in his life. However, I have listened to all genres of metal that have been mentioned here. Initially, I didn't, but as of now, I have.

The difference is I now bother to listen before criticism.

Fair enough. Still, you seem to have a rather arbitrary negative fixation on a few bands that don't really represent the wider world of metal all that well. Sunn O))) are pretty out there even by Doom standards from what I can tell. Maybe I was wrong, but it seemed like you were listening to a relatively small portion of the stuff that was posted in the thread, and jumping to conclusions about what metal outside of the mainstream is like.

Given your tendencies toward '80s Thrash and Heavy Metal I'd expect you to have a greater appreciation for Power Metal and some of the recent Classic/Thrash revival bands than you've expressed thus far. I recommend some Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Masterplan, Helloween, Evile, and Holy Grail. Listen through all of that, and if you're still of the opinion that you'd rather stick to the Big 4, I'll respect that opinion. I'll find it rather confusing, and consider you a bit odd, but I'll respect the oddness nonetheless.

Cannibalism is gay.

Touche.

[Faulty]

I think I didn't explain myself properly. I never said that early trad Black Metal was a fad. What I'm saying is that you're approaching the Black Metal Shoegaze scene with a similer attitude that many people approached the old BM scene with. I've heard countless of people say how that was just a fad, just a bunch of bands copying one another with everyone wanting to be the next Mayhem. While it was probebly the case with some bands, as a whole it just wasn't true. It's a slightly ignorant view and what you're saying about Alcest and "Blackgaze" (or whatever you want to call it) is sort of echoing that. You're seeing it as fad in the same way those people saw Black Metal as a fad and in doing so, when you yourself are into a genre that recieved similar ctiricism, it makes you come across as a bit of a hypocrite, a little indirectly, maybe. It most deffinately isn't just full of "wannabes". It's a genre many people, including myself, genuinly appreciate and enjoy in the same way you and so many others appreciate the 90's Black Metal sound.

It doesn't have the originality or DIY attitude to make it survive longer than any other form of popular music. I will bet money that 10 years from now, "blackgaze" will have come and gone, just like dubstep will, and just like disco did.

[Nomrom]

Since we're talking about black metal, Primordial is black metal, right? That's what Wikipedia says anyways. If I like them, who should I listen to?

[Triscuitable]

Since we're talking about black metal, Primordial is black metal, right? That's what Wikipedia says anyways. If I like them, who should I listen to?

Black Sabbath. Children of the Grave. War Pigs.

[grimbold]

Given your tendencies toward '80s Thrash and Heavy Metal I'd expect you to have a greater appreciation for Power Metal and some of the recent Classic/Thrash revival bands than you've expressed thus far. I recommend some Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Masterplan, Helloween, Evile, and Holy Grail. Listen through all of that, and if you're still of the opinion that you'd rather stick to the Big 4, I'll respect that opinion. I'll find it rather confusing, and consider you a bit odd, but I'll respect the oddness nonetheless.

Also
exodus

if you dig that i can give you a lot more 80s thrash to listen too,, it gets INSANE

do you know A7x? you might dig them...

*looks frantically at metal posters in room*

hrmm...

Thrashy power metal Steeltrooper!

so yeah... more tomorrow if you want...

[ex cathedra]

It doesn't have the originality or DIY attitude to make it survive longer than any other form of popular music. I will bet money that 10 years from now, "blackgaze" will have come and gone, just like dubstep will, and just like disco did.

I don't see how that matters, though. I don't listen to music because of the scene surrounding it or what sort of legacy the genre will have. I listen to the music. How does the fact that blackgaze has become relatively popular in the past few years have anything to do with, honestly, anything?

[Triscuitable]

Given your tendencies toward '80s Thrash and Heavy Metal I'd expect you to have a greater appreciation for Power Metal and some of the recent Classic/Thrash revival bands than you've expressed thus far. I recommend some Iced Earth, Blind Guardian, Masterplan, Helloween, Evile, and Holy Grail.

I started listening to Iced Earth. That is some superb music.

Listen through all of that,

Still going through Iced Earth's stuff!

[Faulty]

I don't see how that matters, though. I don't listen to music because of the scene surrounding it or what sort of legacy the genre will have. I listen to the music. How does the fact that blackgaze has become relatively popular in the past few years have anything to do with, honestly, anything?

You can listen to it, but it's not trve. Fads last for years, black metal is forever. :v

[Triscuitable]

do you know A7x? you might dig them...

I know who they are and I do not dig them. Not even a little bit. But Exodus...

[Moff Chumley]

It doesn't have the originality or DIY attitude to make it survive longer than any other form of popular music. I will bet money that 10 years from now, "blackgaze" will have come and gone, just like dubstep will, and just like disco did.

I hate to burst your bubble, but dubstep's been around for (arguably) about a decade and disco's one of the most influential and pervasive sounds in modern music.

Spoiler

Show

Disco started out as, to overgeneralize, music made by and for the LGBT and black communities. It was immensely popular for a few years and then it went back to being in the domain of gay black men; between 1980 and 1990 "disco" warped into House and I don't need to tell you how pervasive house is.

Disco is not dead; disco won.

[Nameless]

It doesn't have the originality or DIY attitude to make it survive longer than any other form of popular music.

This... I don't even... what?

I will bet money that 10 years from now, "blackgaze" will have come and gone, just like dubstep will, and just like disco did.

Wait.. WHAT?

Spoiler

Show

[Triscuitable]

Wait.. WHAT?

Spoiler

Show

He knows his stuff. Don't lead yourself down the road of Equestrian denial.

[WhamBamSam]

It doesn't have the originality or DIY attitude to make it survive longer than any other form of popular music. I will bet money that 10 years from now, "blackgaze" will have come and gone, just like dubstep will, and just like disco did.

All music goes in cycles. Something might be significantly less popular in 10 years, but more popular again in 20. Less commercial genres like BM might not fluctuate as wildly, but that doesn't mean they aren't riding a sine curve just like everyone else, just that their curve happens to have a smaller amplitude.

I could point out several genres currently being revived by younger generations, but I'll make due with what is perhaps the most illustrative example. This song was originally popularized through black-face minstrel shows. It was written to capitalize on what was not only a fad at the time, but a particularly racist one.

That's Bruce Springsteen singing it, and an arena crowd happily singing along. As long as people genuinely like the music it persists and will someday rear its head again regardless of whether it originated from a fad or from a trve kvlt DIY movement of pure creativity. Not dead which can eternal lie and all that.

I started listening to Iced Earth. That is some superb music.

I figured you'd like them. And yes, Iced Earth are awesome.

Still going through Iced Earth's stuff!

Anything following the list of recommendations can pretty much be ignored at this point, since you did in fact find something on the list that you liked.

[cleric_of_BANJO]

Holy balls. Are you me? Anthems and Pariah were the two albums I listened to. How is Pro Patria Finlandia by the way? It really has a creepy right wing feel, and I got past that with Peste Noire, but I dunno if it's worth the bother for IN because they never seem to be considered seminal.

PPF is definitely creepily right wing, but it's kind of funny in a weird way. Listening to a song called "Neighbourcide" makes me feel like they're tounge-in-cheek enough that their uber-patriotism might be a gimmick. Or maybe they just don't have a great handle of the English language, not sure.

To be clear though, there is no compelling reason I can give you to take the time to check it out; Other than Goat Sodomy, I honestly wouldn't miss any songs if I hadn't ever listened to it. And even then, it's not spectacular.

[Kindablue]

I hate to burst your bubble, but dubstep's been around for (arguably) about a decade and disco's one of the most influential and pervasive sounds in modern music.

Spoiler

Show

Disco started out as, to overgeneralize, music made by and for the LGBT and black communities. It was immensely popular for a few years and then it went back to being in the domain of gay black men; between 1980 and 1990 "disco" warped into House and I don't need to tell you how pervasive house is.

Disco is not dead; disco won.

We stuck to our original idea to make a 2007 opera-disco album, even if we are conscious that some tracks don't sound like proper disco at first listen. The best example is the song "Waters of Nazareth," which does not sound like disco when you listen to it for the first time. But if you forget that everything is distorted, the bass lines are just really basic disco patterns.
--Xavier de Rosnay of Justice

[Feytalist]

I started listening to Iced Earth. That is some superb music.

Ahahaha we have another convert :D

They are rather excellent, aren't they. Horror Show is the album that put metal on the map for me.

[Faulty]

House is house. Dubstep as popular will die. All fads are false. DIY is forever. ￣\(。_o)/￣

[Nameless]

He knows his stuff. Don't lead yourself down the road of Equestrian denial.

I'm just gonna go and listen to some obscure Depressive Black Metal from the furthest reaches of... Australia... \m/;_;\m/

TIM YATRAS FOREVER!

[Faulty]

Not raw enough. Listen to Total Genocide.

[Triscuitable]

Ahahaha we have another convert :D

They are rather excellent, aren't they. Horror Show is the album that put metal on the map for me.

Mine was ...And Justice For All. Of course, I spent about three weeks listening to Master of Puppets, because my friend dropped the entire Metallica discography on me one day. All of their LPs and EPs. And in disc form, too.

[ex cathedra]

In other news: I think I should try and listne to more stoner metal. Any suggestions?

Under the assumption that I don't need to mention the classic (because, to be perfectly honest, you can only recommend Funeralopolis so many times), I'm going to suggest that you listen to Elder's Dead Roots Stirring.

[grimbold]

I know who they are and I do not dig them. Not even a little bit. But Exodus...

then try Dark Angel

and
death angel!

[Moff Chumley]

House is house. Dubstep as popular will die. All fads are false. DIY is forever. ￣\(。_o)/￣

House and dubstep, and almost all electronic music, for that matter, are done on laptops in people's bedrooms. It costs maybe fifteen hundred to put together a solid laptop electronic music setup.

Even the most lo-fi of black metal rigs'll run at least $500 and probably closer to a grand. Factor in another guitar or two, bass, drums, studio costs, price of duplication, and all of the other inane expenses that bands rack up, and to be honest, I'm failing to see how that's any more DIY than making music on a laptop.

I'm not sure what "house is house" means in this context, and if by "dubstep as popular" you mean crappy American dubstep, I'll put it this way. Just because Bay City Rollers aren't selling records anymore doesn't mean rock's dead.