Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[Faulty]

It seems to be limited just to that particular release by Mayhem for whatever reason. :v

As far as black metal, previously all I've really heard were bands like Satyricon, Darkthrone (before they went crust punk, which was the only stuff by them I liked), Mayhem, and of course Burzum, Bathory, and Venom. Couldn't claim any of it really appealed to me though.

The only other Mayhem release with that style (besides Out from the Dark, Live in Leipzig and Dawn of the Black Hearts, if you count it) is Pure ****ing Armageddon, and that pushes the limits of a lot of people's taste for lo-fi. Honestly, I think Deathcrush is Mayhem's best official release, though my favorite Mayhem "album" is actually the Dawn of the Black Hearts bootleg.

Also this is a total nitpick but the whole "Darkthrone are crust" thing drives me crazy as someone who loves Darkthrone and has listened to a decent bit of Crust. Really, they sound like they're channeling Motorhead more than anything. They have some punk and D-beat feel to them, but I think they actually display much more heavy and speed metal influences.

What sort of music do you like? As in, you into melodies, short songs, epic songs, whatever.

Agalloch
(both those bands have a similar sound actually, but I thought I'd mention both of them as they're both awesome )
Alcest

Agalloch aren't really BM and Alcest are shoegaze, so if you're trying to get him into BM, I wouldn't start there.

Just a pair of random suggestions: Heimdalls Wacht and Odal.

[Faulty]

Given crust punk's nature as a hybrid of metal and punk, Faulty, I would say the fact that it displays both...well, punk and metal characteristics, seems to characterise it as crust. But that doesn't really matter. I enjoyed their later releases more than their previous black metal releases.

As to what sort of metal I like, I'm mostly into death metal, as well as thrash, grindcore, and some doom metal. For the most part I like my metal fast, aggressive, and heavy.

Metal and punk have met so many times that saying it's punky and metally could mean anything from sludge to crossover to speed metal. Most crust takes its core tips from anarcho-punk. More metal infused crust is specifically characterized as stenchcore and blackened crust, the latter of which is more Iskra and less Darkthrone. That Darkthrone song is very 80s heavy/speed metal-y with a punk edge in stuff like the D-beat drumming.

Anyway, a few things that maybe would suit you: Blasphemy, Blasphemophagher, Funeral Mist, Corpuss Christii, and Ascension may suit you.

[Marillion]

RE: Black Metal
Liar of Golgotha
Ihsahn
Emperor
Woods of Ypres

RE: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, I will echo Feytalist's opinion... on the first CD. The second, in my opinion, is one of the best things they've ever done. It was nothing short of glorious live (If you look hard enough, you may see me on the Score DVD )

[Triscuitable]

RE: Black Metal
Liar of Golgotha
Ihsahn
Emperor
Woods of Ypres

RE: Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence, I will echo Feytalist's opinion... on the first CD. The second, in my opinion, is one of the best things they've ever done. It was nothing short of glorious live (If you look hard enough, you may see me on the Score DVD )

I really like that first one. It's my favorite kind of beat, the "rise and fall" fret chain.

Does anyone remember the time Dave Mustaine cameod on Duck Dodgers?

[eyeofsaulot]

On the subject of Black Metal, the only band I've ever really been able to enjoy is Satyricon, and even then, not all of it. I've never been a fan of that "lo-fi" sound that all these bands try to emulate with their bad production value. Satyricon's mostly pretty clean, and mostly pretty decipherable in terms of lyrics. That's important to me too.

I give you Helrunar. They have clean production, yet are unabashedly black metal. The lyrics might pose a problem for you, being in German. Pretty decipherable if you do know the language. On a side note, this song is off of one of my favorite releases of 2011, Sól.

Cobalt, however, has some of the most intriguing lyrics I've heard in a while, and they are generally easy to make out, especially if you’ve taken the time to look at the lyrics at least once. Not strict black metal for sure, but it's more black metal than it is any other genre.

Does anyone remember the time Dave Mustaine cameod on Duck Dodgers?

That may have been a terrible show, but I love that episode.

[grimbold]

So... Anyone else as exited about the new Eluveitie album as I am? [/new subject]

theres a new one coming out?

WHEN?

also

does metallica still do the snake pit?

[Triscuitable]

does metallica still do the snake pit?

I wish. Those were the coolest things ever. I mean, I wasn't ALIVE for them, but my uncles were. Conveniently, both of them were fans (Soundgarden and Metallica were IN), and the younger(est) one was into Weird Al.

They describe it as a halo of awesome above your head.

[Nameless]

Agalloch aren't really BM and Alcest are shoegaze, so if you're trying to get him into BM, I wouldn't start there.

Just a pair of random suggestions: Heimdalls Wacht and Odal.

(God, I hate getting into these genre discussions so very much)

Agalloch have a lot of different elements in their music. The main two Metal elements are Doom Metal and Black Metal, I would argue more Black then Doom, but you can think otherwise. Either way, there's a lot of Black Metal elements in their music. To say there isn't is... well... silly.
Alcest mix Shoegaze with Black Metal. The genre is sometimes referred two as "Black Metal Shoegaze" or "Blackgaze". Granted, some of their songs lean more towards the Shoegaze side then the Black Metal side, but the song I linked has strong Black Metal influences, especially in the guitars.
As I said in my post, I was listing bands with different sounds to try and present many different sides of Black Metal and how it can be used. The list as a whole is a pretty decent place to start, I think. Just because Alcest aren't pure grim kvlt, doesn't make them any less valid as an example of Black Metal. You'll find that they're actually highly respected among many Black Metal fans. They have their share of screaming and hollering songs too, of course.

[Faulty]

(God, I hate getting into these genre discussions so very much)

Agalloch have a lot of different elements in their music. The main two Metal elements are Doom Metal and Black Metal, I would argue more Black then Doom, but you can think otherwise. Either way, there's a lot of Black Metal elements in their music. To say there isn't is... well... silly.
Alcest mix Shoegaze with Black Metal. The genre is sometimes referred two as "Black Metal Shoegaze" or "Blackgaze". Granted, some of their songs lean more towards the Shoegaze side then the Black Metal side, but the song I linked has strong Black Metal influences, especially in the guitars.
As I said in my post, I was listing bands with different sounds to try and present many different sides of Black Metal and how it can be used. The list as a whole is a pretty decent place to start, I think. Just because Alcest aren't pure grim kvlt, doesn't make them any less valid as an example of Black Metal. You'll find that they're actually highly respected among many Black Metal fans. They have their share of screaming and hollering songs too, of course.

Agalloch has some black metal elements but they're so much of a genre blend I think putting them into a black metal list is a disservice to the list (doesn't really present a good idea of what black metal sounds like) and Agalloch (by suggesting that they fit into a single genre and not like... "Agalloch" as their genre).

Re: "Blackgaze", though. Seriously, that is not a genre, unless you count shoegaze/dream pop with harsh vocals and an excess of tremolo picking black metal. Alcest has been a purely dream pop/shoegaze band since Souvenirs d'un Autre Monde. I've also listened to their entire discography disregarding the split with Les Discrets, the Le Secret rerelease, and the "Autre Temps" single (Tristesse Hivernale is my favorite release derpin derpin), a fair bit of dream pop/shoegaze and a lot of black metal. Alcest's full lengths are in no way black metal. Écailles de Lune lean towards BM at times, but they are primarily dream pop/shoegaze. Kvlt or not, good or not (and despite my bias against Neige), they simply aren't black metal.

[grimbold]

I wish. Those were the coolest things ever. I mean, I wasn't ALIVE for them, but my uncles were. Conveniently, both of them were fans (Soundgarden and Metallica were IN), and the younger(est) one was into Weird Al.

They describe it as a halo of awesome above your head.

one more reason to hate on metallica

[Nameless]

Agalloch has some black metal elements but they're so much of a genre blend I think putting them into a black metal list is a disservice to the list (doesn't really present a good idea of what black metal sounds like) and Agalloch (by suggesting that they fit into a single genre and not like... "Agalloch" as their genre).

That's... not what I said. I said that my list was there to present different sounds within the Black Metal genre. I said that that Agalloch have different elements in their music. I said that they have a lot of Black Metal elements in their music. Almost every band in the world has elements from different genres, including every band I put on the list. In fact most genres are created by blending other genres that already exist, so you can't really separate Black Metal to other genres when talking about it as if it's some sort of pure element. It doesn't mean Agalloch are a disservice to list, quite the opposite in fact. It says "Look what you can do with Black Metal when combined with Doom and Folk and other styles." No band in my list has one pure "Black Metal" sound. Every one of them is a mix of many different musical elements.

Winterhorde have Symphony.
Wolfchant have Folk and Melodeath.
Onryo have Shoegaze.
Dominia have Doom, Symphony and Melody.
Dornenriech are Avant Garde and have Folk.

Are these bands also a disservice to the list? Because that would leave me with very few bands that I would be able to mention...

Re: "Blackgaze", though. Seriously, that is not a genre, unless you count shoegaze/dream pop with harsh vocals and an excess of tremolo picking black metal. Alcest has been a purely dream pop/shoegaze band since Souvenirs d'un Autre Monde. I've also listened to their entire discography disregarding the split with Les Discrets, the Le Secret rerelease, and the "Autre Temps" single (Tristesse Hivernale is my favorite release derpin derpin), a fair bit of dream pop/shoegaze and a lot of black metal. Alcest's full lengths are in no way black metal. Écailles de Lune lean towards BM at times, but they are primarily dream pop/shoegaze. Kvlt or not, good or not (and despite my bias against Neige), they simply aren't black metal.

Right, and who are you to decide that Black Metal Shoegaze isn't real? Every genre is as real as the next, they're all made up and they're all simply their as an easy way of describing music styles. Blackgaze is as real as every other silly sub-genre. At no point did I say that Alcest were Black Metal, I'm simply saying that a lot of they're music has strong Black Metal influences and that they're quite a big part of the Black Metal scene. Just because their music isn't pure Black Metal doesn't mean that they shouldn't be brought up when discussing the genre. They're a good example of how Black Metal can be used in a non-traditional way and showing that not all Black Metal consists of distant guitars and blast beats.

[eyeofsaulot]

Agalloch have a lot of different elements in their music. The main two Metal elements are Doom Metal and Black Metal, I would argue more Black then Doom, but you can think otherwise. Either way, there's a lot of Black Metal elements in their music. To say there isn't is... well... silly.

Maybe it was that particular Agalloch example that didn’t work for the discussion at hand. Ashes Against the Grain is easily their least black metal-influenced album and the hardest for genre-taggers to put a label on. This or this may be more appropriate Agalloch examples.

[Faulty]

Agalloch shenanigans.

I understand that a load of BM bands have varying influences, I simply meant that their variety of influences and unique nature make them not particularly indicative of black or folk or doom metal.

Maybe it was that particular Agalloch example that didn’t work for the discussion at hand. Ashes Against the Grain is easily their least black metal-influenced album and the hardest for genre-taggers to put a label on. This or this may be more appropriate Agalloch examples.

All I've heard is Ashes and their Neofolk album, which explains a bit. Ashes is a really unique album and it always confused me as to why they got called BM.

Right, and who are you to decide that Black Metal Shoegaze isn't real? Every genre is as real as the next, they're all made up and they're all simply their as an easy way of describing music styles. Blackgaze is as real as every other silly sub-genre. At no point did I say that Alcest were Black Metal, I'm simply saying that a lot of they're music has strong Black Metal influences and that they're quite a big part of the Black Metal scene. Just because their music isn't pure Black Metal doesn't mean that they shouldn't be brought up when discussing the genre. They're a good example of how Black Metal can be used in a non-traditional way and showing that not all Black Metal consists of distant guitars and blast beats.

Black metal is one of the most varied and complex genres in metal. It just so happens that Alcest is a dream pop/shoegaze band that very rarely have some black metal influences that is mainly connected to the metal scene due to Alcest's early black metal material, his being in Peste Noire, etc. Plenty of non-black metal bands/projects/whatever are connected to the metal scene, but not actually metal. I say blackgaze is not a thing because "blackgaze" bands are just Alcest inspired dream pop bands with with some growling (e.g. Sleeping Peonies, who are actually really cool). Really though what it boils down to is that Alcest not fitting in to black metal really makes them a poor choice for a recommendation if you're trying to get someone into black metal.

[Nameless]

I understand that a load of BM bands have varying influences, I simply meant that their variety of influences and unique nature make them not particularly indicative of black or folk or doom metal.



All I've heard is Ashes and their Neofolk album, which explains a bit. Ashes is a really unique album and it always confused me as to why they got called BM.

I never said that they were indicative to one genre. I actually said, more then once, that their music has a elements from many different styles and genres. I'm not sure why I keep having to repeat this.

Black metal is one of the most varied and complex genres in metal. It just so happens that Alcest is a dream pop/shoegaze band that very rarely have some black metal influences that is mainly connected to the metal scene due to Alcest's early black metal material, his being in Peste Noire, etc. Plenty of non-black metal bands/projects/whatever are connected to the metal scene, but not actually metal. I say blackgaze is not a thing because "blackgaze" bands are just Alcest inspired dream pop bands with with some growling (e.g. Sleeping Peonies, who are actually really cool). Really though what it boils down to is that Alcest not fitting in to black metal really makes them a poor choice for a recommendation if you're trying to get someone into black metal.

Using Alcest as the only example would be a bad way to introduce someone to Black Metal, yes. However, putting them in a list along with several other bands (like I did) is a pretty good thing to do the way I see it because it shows diversity. But then, if you could only use one band to describe the genre, who would you choose? As you've mentioned, Black Metal is a very complex and varied genre*, I don't think I could ever choose just one band.

You say Alcest don't really have any Black Metal influences in their music, plenty of people would disagree with you, but I don't think there's much I can say that will change your mind because, well, that's your opinion and what-not and you seem pretty set in stone about it. Which takes me to your next point about Blackgaze bands. Again, there isn't much I can say that will change your mind, but saying that they're all just "Alcest inspired Dream Pop bands with some growling" or that there's no Black Metal involved is, quite frankly, a little ignorant.

*Exactly, Black Metal is a complex and varied genre. Which is why you need to present many different examples of how it's used, like with Alcest and Agalloch, instead of just what it is by pointing out bands that fall into the genre more stereotypically.

[Faulty]

You can show diversity in black metal with actual black metal bands. You can show diversity with just the early Norwegian bands, who made some of the best and most diverse black metal ever.

[Nameless]

You can show diversity in black metal with actual black metal bands.

Yes, I did that. :P

[Faulty]

Yes, I did that. :P

All I can say is Alcest ain't BM.

[Marillion]

Well, it seems that David Gold, founder of Woods of Ypres, died last month in a car accident.

Maaaaaaaaaaaan.

[Mythestopheles]

All I can say is Alcest ain't BM.

The guitars from 1:00-2:00, and 2:30 from This video would disagree with you. Vocals do not Black Metal make.

[Feytalist]

This is quite an interesting thought, actually. What sort of music does a band have to make to be included in a certain genre?

Black metal is obviously associated with a certain vocal style and a certain use of instruments in some combination, (as well as a certain outlook and style, but bands such as Wolves in the Throne Room and unblack metal and such have subverted that point to hell and back) but with what degree of accuracy?

For example, my best example of black metal vocals isn't even from a black metal band. (For reference, it's Ville Sorvali of Moonsorrow. That man's screams are godly.) The black influences in bands such as Alcest and Agalloch (and even Dargaard, which isn't even metal) are obvious, so why shouldn't they be included under the black umbrella? Should we rather invent new fusion genres for every band? I don't even know what postgaze shoeblack is.

For the record (and just to confuse everything further) I don't think of Alcest as black metal. When I want to listen to black metal, I'm putting on Vreid or similar. But when black metal is discussed (as it has been, here) then it's only fair to throw Alcest, Agalloch and bands like them into the mix. The many black metal influences are there, after all.

[Faulty]

The guitars from 1:00-2:00, and 2:30 from This video would disagree with you. Vocals do not Black Metal make.

Tremolo picking and fuzzy guitars show up in shoegaze all the time. The closest Alcest's shoegaze/dream pop work has gotten to black metal, disregarding typically black metal vocals at times, is a few parts in either "Écailles de Lune" part I or II. I don't remember which and I can't be arsed to pause Filosofem to figure it out.

I feel that they kinda do. I don't confess to know very much about black metal nor enjoy it in general, but two songs with sections in which the guitars sound like typical black metal fare don't make it black metal either, I should think.

This is also true. It's not rare for bands/artists to have parts of songs where there are similarities to other genres, or are flat out representative of other genres. That doesn't make the band proper or even necessarily the song that genre. Ultimately genre is a way of describing an assortment of music with a similar sound so that communication regarding them can happen on a certain level. It's a means of categorization, and if something doesn't fall within the defined boundaries then including them in it defeats the purpose of categorizing them.

For the record (and just to confuse everything further) I don't think of Alcest as black metal. When I want to listen to black metal, I'm putting on Vreid or similar. But when black metal is discussed (as it has been, here) then it's only fair to throw Alcest, Agalloch and bands like them into the mix. The many black metal influences are there, after all.

There really aren't though, re: Alcest. I listen/have listened to black metal (a LOT of it) and to shoegaze/dream pop, and know many others who do/have, and they all agree with me. They are certainly connected to the metal scene, but so is Mortiis and he makes dark ambient.

[Flechair]

It's funny. My first day on GitP in something like 6 months and you're debating Agalloch, one of my all time favorite bands. I even saw them live for my birthday back in October.

To completely change up the topic, what did you guys think of the new Cynic EP?

[Triscuitable]

I used to find it hard to enjoy Some Kind of Monster. I guess my iPod was glitchy, because the song I remember as SKoM is "Dirty Window". This song has the second most awesome buildup of any Metallica song. The first is easily Battery.

I want to put this up to debate. And to avoid this being like my last post, i.e., "Answer these four questions", I want to debate with everyone what they believe is the best buildup to any Metal song, period.

[Flechair]

To be honest I don't like the new direction Cynic has been going. As far as I'm concerned Focus was the pinnacle of their achievement and the more and more they've distanced themselves from the metal aspects of their music the less I like it.

I can agree with you about how they seem to be distancing themselves from their original sound, but unlike you I really enjoy it. After about 5 times of listening to the EP, I decided that I loved it. I've listened to it probably 50 times now.

Didn't stop me from going to see them live a couple of months ago.

Me neither. I saw them in November. First time seeing them live, and I loved it.

I want to debate with everyone what they believe is the best buildup to any Metal song, period.

This is the first thing I thought of. I can't say it's the best or even my favorite, but I love this song, and I love this intro.

[Marillion]

Best buildup? Well I don't know if it qualifies as the best, but I LOVE the opening of I, Monarch.

[Triscuitable]

Holy ****.

Dude, I was just about to link that exact song in responce.

Seriously, what a fantastic buildup. Gets you pumped. "I'm READY FOR THIS SONG OF AWESOME!"

[Feytalist]

...I want to debate with everyone what they believe is the best buildup to any Metal song, period.

Shadow Gallery - Cliffhanger

Shadow Gallery - Cliffhanger 2

Yes, that's two different songs. Shadow Gallery is a woefully unknown prog metal act. Not as heavy as other prog bands, but these songs especially are brilliantly constructed.

[Vacant]

I have to say, I think black metal's genre boundaries have very little to do with sound in a lot of respects; it is a commonly held opinion in my experience, especially amongst kvlt kiddies, that Alcest is not black metal while it is sacrilege to say Aäkon Këëtrëh is not. Alcest, especially later, may sound more like a shoegaze band than a traditional black metal band, but Aäkon Këëtrëh sounds even less like a traditional black metal band than a lot of Alcest does. There's not much of anything wrong with this and plenty of other genres exist similarly; saying a band being is a punk band, or even a hardcore or anarcho-punk band says little to do nothing about its sound, nowadays.

Also, I second the vague distaste for Cynic's new direction.

[Killer Angel]

I want to debate with everyone what they believe is the best buildup to any Metal song, period.

Probably it's not the best, but my first thought was for Slayer - Hell Awaits.
Do you really need a youtube link?

[Faulty]

I want to put this up to debate. And to avoid this being like my last post, i.e., "Answer these four questions", I want to debate with everyone what they believe is the best buildup to any Metal song, period.

Gonna go with two Panopticon songs. Either "The Death of Baldr and the Coming of War" or the intro to Panopticon, which is essentially an intro to the next song, "Flag Burner; Torch Bearer" and could easily simply be part of the latter.

I have to say, I think black metal's genre boundaries have very little to do with sound in a lot of respects; it is a commonly held opinion in my experience, especially amongst kvlt kiddies, that Alcest is not black metal while it is sacrilege to say Aäkon Këëtrëh is not. Alcest, especially later, may sound more like a shoegaze band than a traditional black metal band, but Aäkon Këëtrëh sounds even less like a traditional black metal band than a lot of Alcest does. There's not much of anything wrong with this and plenty of other genres exist similarly; saying a band being is a punk band, or even a hardcore or anarcho-punk band says little to do nothing about its sound, nowadays.

I have never, ever heard Aäkon Këëtrëh referred to as anything but dark ambient. Which they are. They're LLN, but calling them black metal would be basically sacrilege. Black metal's sound has expanded (Bathory sounds different than Darkthrone who sound different than Deathspell Omega circa 2005 and on) but both BM and shoegaze (and dream pop, which Alcest's music frequently slips into more specifically) still have definite boundaries. One of my favorite parts of BM is how much it has expanded, and also how varied it was even in the early, formational years of the second wave (i.e. Norway from 1992-1996). Still, if it (or any other genre) doesn't have some boundaries, then genre ceases to have any importance. I can understand completely eschewing genre, as all categorization is ultimately a simplification, but if you're going to use "black metal", then you should like... talk about stuff that actually fits the BM sound.