Metal Thread VI: We're So Kvlt, We Have Frostbite On Our Devil Horn Fingers

[Nameless]

This is quite an interesting thought, actually. What sort of music does a band have to make to be included in a certain genre?

Black metal is obviously associated with a certain vocal style and a certain use of instruments in some combination, (as well as a certain outlook and style, but bands such as Wolves in the Throne Room and unblack metal and such have subverted that point to hell and back) but with what degree of accuracy?

For example, my best example of black metal vocals isn't even from a black metal band. (For reference, it's Ville Sorvali of Moonsorrow. That man's screams are godly.) The black influences in bands such as Alcest and Agalloch (and even Dargaard, which isn't even metal) are obvious, so why shouldn't they be included under the black umbrella? Should we rather invent new fusion genres for every band? I don't even know what postgaze shoeblack is.

For the record (and just to confuse everything further) I don't think of Alcest as black metal. When I want to listen to black metal, I'm putting on Vreid or similar. But when black metal is discussed (as it has been, here) then it's only fair to throw Alcest, Agalloch and bands like them into the mix. The many black metal influences are there, after all.

We also have to remember that Black Metal has evolved a lot over the years. It's mixed and blended itself with many other genres and explored areas most other Metal genres haven't, to simply say that once it's done so, it is no longer associated with Black Metal is rather ignorant, I think. Alcest haven't simply changed from Black Metal to Shoegaze, they evolved, keeping many of their original Black Metal elements within their more recent Shoegaze material. For someone who isn't familiar with Black Metal, I can understand why they would say that they sound nothing like Black Metal, some of their material has no Black Metal elements at all. (Tir Nan Og is one such example) But as big fan of BM and Shoegaze, I can a lot of elements from both genres in most of their songs.

Also, about vocals, some Black Metal these days actually usees clean vocals, which I think works rather well.
Austere have a rather beautiful song with clean vocals.

[Triscuitable]

Probably it's not the best, but my first thought was for Slayer - Hell Awaits.
Do you really need a youtube link?

No, we don't, because the song is starting in my head right now.

[ex cathedra]

If memory serves, I Am The Wooden Doors and Into The Painted Grey are Agalloch tracks with relatively prominent black metal leanings, at least as far as Agalloch are concerned. Still, neither of them are particuly good examples and Agalloch as a whole are generally quite removed from BM. Some people characterize them and bands like Drudkh as "dark metal" but I don't know if that's a thing though it feels hypocritical dismissing it like that when so many people don't believe that things like post-metal and sludge are genres.

Anyways, a band's sound changes over time. C'est la vie. It's true of Alcest, it's true of Katatonia, it's true of countless bands, and doing so doesn't change a band's genre, pre se, it just adds more to their repertoire.

[Faulty]

Every supposed "black metal" touch in Alcest also shows up independently in shoegaze. There is not an iota of real black metal in Alcest's recent music. I have never heard a single person whose opinion on genre I would trust with my life classify recent Alcest as black metal, not even "blackgaze" (which is one of the worst portmanteaus in the history of existence).

[Whoracle]

Anyways, a band's sound changes over time. C'est la vie. It's true of Alcest, it's true of Katatonia, it's true of countless bands, and doing so doesn't change a band's genre, pre se, it just adds more to their repertoire.

This is where I have to object. If Blind Guardian tuned their guitars down to C, got rid of the orchestral arrangements, played chugga chugga riffs and Hansi started to growl like Chris Barnes, they most definitely wouldn't count as a power metal band anymore.

IMHO, a band can go down two paths: They can evolve in their genre, and they can even evolve their genre (ex crossovers into other genres), or they can deviate from their genre and land in another one.

Compare Dark Tranquillity with In Flames. Both started out in the same genre, and both evolved along (roughly) the same track. But somewhen, In Flames started to change drastically. Compare any track from The Jester Race with one from Clay Man, and you can see: Yup, same band. Now compare Clay Man with something from Sounds Of A Playground Fading. They sound not even remotely similar. And don't even start to compare The Jester Race with Sounds Of A...

Same procedure for Dark Tranquillity:
Compare Skydancer to Haven - Yep, same band, same genre, just more "refined".
Compare Haven to Fiction - Yep, same band, same genre, just even more "refined".
Compare Skydancer to Fiction - Yep, same band, same genre, just drastically evolved.

Those are existing examples. I can come up with some really ridiculous imaginary ones, too, if you like.

Now, deviating from the genre one was put in earlier is not always bad, but a band can certainly completely change genres.

[Makensha]

It would, however, be a vast improvement.

I just had to say it.

/awaits the hate

Uh, I hate in your general direction?

I've had too many people complain about my taste in music to get ticked off when someone disses (do people still use that word?) a band I like.

Oh, and I need Melodic Death suggestions.

[Faulty]

This is where I have to object. If Blind Guardian tuned their guitars down to C, got rid of the orchestral arrangements, played chugga chugga riffs and Hansi started to growl like Chris Barnes, they most definitely wouldn't count as a power metal band anymore.

IMHO, a band can go down two paths: They can evolve in their genre, and they can even evolve their genre (ex crossovers into other genres), or they can deviate from their genre and land in another one.

Now, deviating from the genre one was put in earlier is not always bad, but a band can certainly completely change genres.

Very true and well said.

[Moff Chumley]

It would, however, be a vast improvement.

I just had to say it.

/awaits the hate

Very true and well said.

[Flechair]

Melodic Death suggestions.

In Flames and Dark Tranquility, as already said.

Here are some more.

[ex cathedra]

This is where I have to object. If Blind Guardian tuned their guitars down to C, got rid of the orchestral arrangements, played chugga chugga riffs and Hansi started to growl like Chris Barnes, they most definitely wouldn't count as a power metal band anymore.

I don't think of bands as being a single or set series of genres. Albums are static once they've been recorded. The material on an album doesn't change. Albums have set genres.

Bands are different. They're a collection of people, and people change. Bands generally, and often, play a variety of genres. Making a new album doesn't discard all of their prior work. If a band makes a power metal album and a drone-doom album, they aren't just a power metal band, nor are they just a drone-doom band. They're a band who plays each of those genres, and likely several more.

This might just be you and I perceiving things differently, to be fair.

[Flechair]

Start with the classic. Carcass' 'Heartwork' album.

Click on my 'more' link, man.

[Flechair]

Just Buried Dreams don't cut it! What about such headbangers as Arbeit Macht Fleisch, or This Is Your Life? That solo on Carnal Forge? Just...Blind Bleeding the Blind in its entirety?

Hey, I was just linking it to start him on Carcass. I'm not going to tell him which songs to like by Carcass, but rather just show him their existence.

[Killer Angel]

It would, however, be a vast improvement.

Or, at least, an interesting one.

[Whoracle]

Oh, and I need Melodic Death suggestions.

From an earlier post of mine:

Dark Tranquillity are still doing what they always did, Nightrage are quite great, Cipher System are good, although not for long stretches, I'll give you that, Dimension Zero totally rocks, Carcass old works still kick ass, even though they're not gothenburg, per se. I could go on...

... so I will:
Scar Symmetry
Mors Principium Est
Hypocrisy

Also, old works:
Soilwork
In Flames

[Feytalist]

I always like to point to Tiamat. They started out with some kind of blackened death, changed to doom after a few albums, with a few even going closer to prog rock than metal, all the way to gothic metal. Same band, a whole bunch of wildly differing genres. And just about everything they touch is excellent.

It would, however, be a vast improvement.

Blasphemy.

[Faulty]

Very true and well said.

I like Nightfall in Middle Earth. D:

Blasphemy.

Great band, but they sound nothing like Blind Guardian. Or chuggy death metal vocals BG.

[Moff Chumley]

Blasphemy.

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

[eyeofsaulot]

If you're all so curious as to what Blind Guardian would sound like as a death metal band, I give you a death metal band covering Blind Guardian.

[grimbold]

my metal brethren

be ready to throw your spine out with REVOCATION

[Triscuitable]

Hey everyone.

Have a laugh.

That kid is a 12 year old troll in the making. Also, he clearly doesn't know the horribly depressing meaning of "Iron Man", if he thinks it's "happy".

What a little turd.

[Faulty]

Search your feelings. You know it to be true.

Maybe it's just nostalgia. Anyway, Blind Guardian aren't true metal. Only lo-fi underground Satanic black metal released in limited copies on vinyl or cassette is really worth listening to anymore.

[Moff Chumley]

Technically speaking, isn't everything released on vinyl or cassette "limited copies"? :U

Hey everyone.

Have a laugh.

This kid is a master troll. Look at those dislikes.

[Faulty]

Technically speaking, isn't everything released on vinyl or cassette "limited copies"? :U

Needs to be hand numbered in either under 100 or 666 copies. This is acceptable, for example. "Format: CASSETTE TAPE limited to 66 copies (hand numbered)". If it's too available then the bands might not be obscure enough.

[Moff Chumley]

Are there companies that'll do runs of 66 or 666? Or do bands just do runs of 100 or 1000 and hide the extras? Because I looked at like half a dozen manufacturers when my band was putting out or album and we totally woulda gone with a 666 run if we'd found someone offering one.

[Zocelot]

Oh, and I need Melodic Death suggestions.

Wheee, let's do this. I'm gonna give you a mix of bands that you've probably never heard of and bands that you may have heard of but still have to listen to.

Kalmah
Soulfallen
Be'Lakor
Deals Death
Mors Principium Est
Nightrage
Sylosis (Conclusion of an Age only)
Anterior
Destroy Destroy Destroy (Second album)
Imperanon
Amon Amarth
Dark Tranquillity
Dreamshade
Watch Me Fall
In Flames (Up to Clayman)

Each of those bands has my seal of approval. If you let me know what kind of MeloDeath you like, I can go into more detail and throw out some names that I don't personally like but you might.

[Feytalist]

I like Nightfall in Middle Earth. D:

Everyone who doesn't is either lying or have no taste

Also:

Great band, but they sound nothing like Blind Guardian. Or chuggy death metal vocals BG.

Ahaha. Hahahah. Ha.

Spoiler

Show

[Nameless]

Oh, and I need Melodic Death suggestions.

Norther, Norther and Norther. Oh, did I mention Norther?
Children of Bodom
Archeon
Imperanon
Followbane

[Faulty]

Are there companies that'll do runs of 66 or 666? Or do bands just do runs of 100 or 1000 and hide the extras? Because I looked at like half a dozen manufacturers when my band was putting out or album and we totally woulda gone with a 666 run if we'd found someone offering one.

I see runs of 66 and 666 all the time. Maybe it's just a black metal thing?

[Moff Chumley]

I see runs of 66 and 666 all the time. Maybe it's just a black metal thing?

Right, but you have to wonder, what happened to the leftover copies?

Everyone who doesn't is either lying or have no taste

Tasteless, reporting in.

[Faulty]

Right, but you have to wonder, what happened to the leftover copies?

I swear to Satan, there have to be some places where you can get 66 or 666 or 88 (if you're NS pond scum), because it just happens way too often. Real talk.


Nightfall in Middle Earth has some pretty decent songs as far as power metal goes. Some of it might be nostalgia, as it was one of the metal albums I heard early into my metal listening career, back before I became possessed by black metal (ha ha).

Real talk.