Hey, I've Got An Idea

[Pyromancer999]

So, I was just sitting around, and was thinking of what I can do to help people's characters be more customizable. Sure, there's Baron Corm's generic classes, which are excellent, but not totally customizable. Overall, when it comes to customization, people prefer point buy systems(ex. Buy the Numbers, Complete Control, etc.), and many have come out with their own point-buy character creation methods.

However, it would seem that not all character creation are approved entirely. So, I was thinking: What if everyone on the Playground got together to make a generic/customizable character creation system(point-buy or otherwise), and make things not only more interesting, but make it more possible to do more character concepts? Seems good.

Still, this would require people to help me and join in on this. So, what I'd like to know is A)Everyone's thoughts on this, and B) If they'd be willing to contribute to such a thing. So, yeah, tell me what you all think.

[Domriso]

I'm interested, to be sure. I've been fiddling with my own point-buy system for a while, so seeing how other people would go about it would be intriguing.

[NeoSeraphi]

First things first for optimal customization: We need 6 new races.

Each race must have a different stat adjustment than the ones in the PHB, but must enhance a different ability score while penalizing one that balances it out.

We need a race that gets +2 Str and -2 to something, a race that gets +2 Dex and -2 to something that isn't Con or Str, a race that gets +2 Con, -2 something that isn't Str or Cha, +2 Int -2 something, +2 Wis -2 something, and +2 Cha -2 something.

I know that with the exception of Constitution and Wisdom, There's An Elf For That (TM), but some of us hate elves with every fiber of our being and would rather play a half-orc bard than a grey elf bard.

So, customization to have some cool, flavorful, interesting races that grant a bonus to each stat, for variety (and so that every cleric/paladin doesn't either go Human or Lesser Aasimar)

[DeAnno]

With a system like this, wouldn't it make more sense to just have a point buy system (or rigid structure even) for racial characteristics?

Ie, I choose +2 Int -2 Wis and +2 to Spellcraft and Craft: Basketweaving.

[NeoSeraphi]

With a system like this, wouldn't it make more sense to just have a point buy system (or rigid structure even) for racial characteristics?

Ie, I choose +2 Int -2 Wis and +2 to Spellcraft and Craft: Basketweaving.

Yes, but that doesn't give you an actual, you know, appearance.

Edit: I suppose you could choose your race's appearance and name along with the stats and bonuses, but would that be too much customization (Letting every player homebrew their race at the beginning of the game, instead of just having us homebrew 6 different races that had specific stat bonuses and penalties)?

[Domriso]

The way I settled on for fixing those sorts of problems was by offering up a series of standard races, each with their own cost out of the point-buy, but allowed for the possibility of crossbreeds that could draw from two parental races' powers. That lets players have choice over what exactly they grab from their race, but not complete control, a la BESM.

So, in a way, I agree with both of you, but side with Seraphi a but more. I definitely think there needs to be some standard races, but offering up the possibility of crossbreeds (crossbreeds of ones own creation, rather than stupid things like Half-Elves, mind you) lets some fun come out.

[DeAnno]

You could go 4e-esian, and have multiple stat assignments possible per race.

A "totally customizable" system would probably have purely point buy races though.

[NeoSeraphi]

You could go 4e-esian, and have multiple stat assignments possible per race.

A "totally customizable" system would probably have purely point buy races though.

Fair enough. So we need a system sort of like Pathfinder's racial systems, but a little more balanced and geared towards 3.5 (as in, no +2, +2, -2)

[Lord Raziere]

well what I'd do is have Point-Buy Everything.

point-buy characters. point-buy races. point-buy armies. point-buy nations. point-buy worlds.

point-buy weapons….everything point-buy.

even the point-buy traits, would be constructed out of point-buy.

now if only I could point-buy point-buy.

[Pyromancer999]

Fair enough. So we need a system sort of like Pathfinder's racial systems, but a little more balanced and geared towards 3.5 (as in, no +2, +2, -2)

Actually, if we're good with separating race point-buy from the rest of the character creation process, we could use Baron Corm's Generic Race, as it seems to be along these lines.

well what I'd do is have Point-Buy Everything.

point-buy characters. point-buy races. point-buy armies. point-buy nations. point-buy worlds.

point-buy weapons….everything point-buy.

even the point-buy traits, would be constructed out of point-buy.

now if only I could point-buy point-buy.

A bit of an exaggeration, but that brings me to things I've thought could change with point-buy:

• Buy HP by the number of points, instead of HD(although we'd have to figure out how to determine effective HD, as many effects are based on that)
• A Playground version of Point-buy stats, or some new method of determining stats
• Point-buy spellcasting. Basically, use points to buy spellcasting ability, which in turn gives you spell points, which you can use to create spells on the spot, whose strength varies depending on how much SP is invested

Thoughts on these?

[NeoSeraphi]

• Buy HP by the number of points, instead of HD(although we'd have to figure out how to determine effective HD, as many effects are based on that)
• A Playground version of Point-buy stats, or some new method of determining stats
• Point-buy spellcasting. Basically, use points to buy spellcasting ability, which in turn gives you spell points, which you can use to create spells on the spot, whose strength varies depending on how much SP is invested

Thoughts on these?

Assuming that BAB is point buy as well, that would make playing a gish incredibly easy, even at early levels, where being a gish is difficult.

[Pyromancer999]

Assuming that BAB is point buy as well, that would make playing a gish incredibly easy, even at early levels, where being a gish is difficult.

Well, also considering this point-buy system, I think a page should be taken from Complete Control's book: Escalating costs for advancing things. So, instead of something being 1 BP(Buy Point, or whatever kind of point we decide to use) for all advancement ranks, it'd be more like 1 BP for 1st, 2 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, and so on, with different increments for different things.

[Pyromancer999]

Accidental post

[Pyromancer999]

Accidental Post II

[bobthe6th]

unless magic gets stabbed in the foot, it would have to be most if not all the base classes point buy. so that all casters would have to have nearly wizard grade chassis.

Anachronity had what seemed to be a good start for a custom class system.

[SpaceBadger]

Or maybe instead of reinventing all of this, you might take a look at GURPS?

[Pyromancer999]

unless magic gets stabbed in the foot, it would have to be most if not all the base classes point buy. so that all casters would have to have nearly wizard grade chassis.

Anachronity had what seemed to be a good start for a custom class system.

Seems interesting. Might be a good place to start. The magic thing could be a side project of its own, or maybe not. We'll see what people think. Still, if we're sticking to Vancian, then Wizard chassis would probably be best, although maybe with an option for spontaneous spellcasting.

Or maybe instead of reinventing all of this, you might take a look at GURPS?

Eh, not really what the goal is here. Personally, I think GURPS is just okay. Really don't like how long it takes to create a character, but that's just me. Still, the difference between GURPS and whatever may come out of this is that this is meant for the d20 system, not for a whole system remake, just a re-do of the character creation part, allowing for a customizable character creation system that most people can approve of because it's being made by a variety of people.

[erikun]

Well, the first problem is that you aren't going to get all of the playground to agree on one set of rules. Even if you could get them all here, everyone's idea of balance or quality concepts will be different.

The second problem is getting anyone to adopt the system. Sure, you and the people working on it will be inclined to do so, but what about all the other DMs running games on the forum? And what about everyone else who isn't part of the forum?

Third, there are plenty of good systems that use point-buy already. (I assume we're talking about doing this to D&D 3.5e specifically.) I don't see much point in learning an entirely new system to do the exact same thing as regular D&D, as opposed to learning an entirely new system like World of Darkness, GURPS, or FUDGE which can do what you are asking a lot better.

The fourth problem is one that Bobthe6th hinted at; magic is horrendously overpowering in 3.5e. If BAB and Rogue abilities are ~10 points, then spontaneous spellcasting would be around 200 points, and prepared casting 500. A class could, quite literally, have every single non-spellcasting ability and still come up short. Either other abilities will need to be toned up, or spellcasting will need to be toned down... and either choice would involve fundamentally changing how the game plays. At that point, you are basically creating a new system.

Good luck, in any case.

[Pyromancer999]

Well, the first problem is that you aren't going to get all of the playground to agree on one set of rules. Even if you could get them all here, everyone's idea of balance or quality concepts will be different.

There are going to have to be compromises. Still, the point of this would be making a character creation point-buy method that's bearable for most.

The second problem is getting anyone to adopt the system. Sure, you and the people working on it will be inclined to do so, but what about all the other DMs running games on the forum? And what about everyone else who isn't part of the forum?

Hmm....It's not that I think everyone will use it. The point of the system is to allow character customization, so that if a DM's like, "OMG, this guy's got a really cool character concept, but I don't want to make a class and the stuff for it's already out there so.....", or to just let people have fun with their character. Want a magic ninja that's a good bit different than the other magic ninjas or an insane spellcaster that inadvertently smacks the heck out of everyone? Just use that. Once it's completed.

Third, there are plenty of good systems that use point-buy already. (I assume we're talking about doing this to D&D 3.5e specifically.) I don't see much point in learning an entirely new system to do the exact same thing as regular D&D, as opposed to learning an entirely new system like World of Darkness, GURPS, or FUDGE which can do what you are asking a lot better.

The point is for customization with d20 material, not for an entirely new system. This is just for character advancement, not a completely new system. Also, for the systems metnioned(personal opinion): Good fluff but dislike mechanics, character creation takes way longer than it should, and okay, but not d20.

The fourth problem is one that Bobthe6th hinted at; magic is horrendously overpowering in 3.5e. If BAB and Rogue abilities are ~10 points, then spontaneous spellcasting would be around 200 points, and prepared casting 500. A class could, quite literally, have every single non-spellcasting ability and still come up short. Either other abilities will need to be toned up, or spellcasting will need to be toned down... and either choice would involve fundamentally changing how the game plays. At that point, you are basically creating a new system.

Magic will probably be toned down some and/or limited. Like probably only a few spell slots or SLAs or something. We'll all work it out if this can get off the ground.
[/QUOTE]

[Prime32]

The point is for customization with d20 material, not for an entirely new system. This is just for character advancement, not a completely new system. Also, for the systems metnioned(personal opinion): Good fluff but dislike mechanics, character creation takes way longer than it should, and okay, but not d20.

Um... what about Mutants & Masterminds? That's point-based d20.

Also, making character creation longer is kind of inherent in making it more complicated.

[Pyromancer999]

Um... what about Mutants & Masterminds? That's point-based d20.

Never heard of that one, actually. I'll check it out.

Also, making character creation longer is kind of inherent in making it more complicated.

True. Still, I once played in a GURPS game. There were three other people besides me, and it literally took the whole day. I don't think character creation should take that long.

[Domriso]

Well, the first problem is that you aren't going to get all of the playground to agree on one set of rules. Even if you could get them all here, everyone's idea of balance or quality concepts will be different.

The second problem is getting anyone to adopt the system. Sure, you and the people working on it will be inclined to do so, but what about all the other DMs running games on the forum? And what about everyone else who isn't part of the forum?

Third, there are plenty of good systems that use point-buy already. (I assume we're talking about doing this to D&D 3.5e specifically.) I don't see much point in learning an entirely new system to do the exact same thing as regular D&D, as opposed to learning an entirely new system like World of Darkness, GURPS, or FUDGE which can do what you are asking a lot better.

There's another side to this, as well. Getting together with people and setting out to collectively work on something, even if it turns out to not work or not be unanimously settled on, can reveal quite a bit about how people think of things, and can jump start certain ideas. I'd be terribly interested to see how people would approach this.

[erikun]

I'm not saying this as any kind of discouragement, just to point out the difficulties you may reasonably face with your planning. Heck, Legend is a very similar idea to what you have, and was recently completed and made available.

[Pyromancer999]

I'm not saying this as any kind of discouragement, just to point out the difficulties you may reasonably face with your planning. Heck, Legend is a very similar idea to what you have, and was recently completed and made available.

Um, Legend isn't point-buy, or so that's what reading it tells me.

There's another side to this, as well. Getting together with people and setting out to collectively work on something, even if it turns out to not work or not be unanimously settled on, can reveal quite a bit about how people think of things, and can jump start certain ideas. I'd be terribly interested to see how people would approach this.

Yeah, that's true.

[motionmatrix]

There was a third party book I got from a a download site (drive thru rpg perhaps?) that pretty much broke down the system in a similar matter. It was for creating classes, if I recall their intent, but its perfect for this.

I unfortunately have no idea where the file is, nor the name. I recall the cover was white with paper doll like figures of fantasy heroes. It may have been 3.0, not sure.

So many 3rd party books, I could never keep track of it all.

If anyone has a clue of what I am talking about, please let me know. I will try to find it if any of you guys happen to give me a direction to start.

Regardless if I find the book or not, I would be willing to put in a few minutes here and there, I have always wanted to put something like this together.

[Deepbluediver]

Actually, if we're good with separating race point-buy from the rest of the character creation process, we could use Baron Corm's Generic Race, as it seems to be along these lines.

A bit of an exaggeration, but that brings me to things I've thought could change with point-buy:

• Buy HP by the number of points, instead of HD(although we'd have to figure out how to determine effective HD, as many effects are based on that)

Well, also considering this point-buy system, I think a page should be taken from Complete Control's book: Escalating costs for advancing things. So, instead of something being 1 BP(Buy Point, or whatever kind of point we decide to use) for all advancement ranks, it'd be more like 1 BP for 1st, 2 for 2nd, 4 for 3rd, and so on, with different increments for different things.

I know I'm late to the argument, but I think this works better for some pieces of character creation than others. For example, starting everyone with a d4 for their HD, and then letting them spend more to get each other hit dice works out pretty well.
Making people buy the ability to cast, buy spell levels, or access to schools rapidly becomes much more complicated, particularly with different people trying to agree on how much something might be worth.

Perhaps we can lay out a few core characteristics, then have people buy in other attributes for flavor.
For example, make an arcane caster base class, a melee base class, a divine base class; give each one a different hit die and BAB, let people buy improvements of special class features.

[SamBurke]

My thoughts with this: allow players to use the X Powers lines from Pathfinder (Rogue Talents, Rage Powers, etc) with a certain point buy. Stealing utilizing this will greatly increase our customization.

Which, of course, is what Pathfinder is about. It's like 3.5, in three (Or four, depending on how you feel about Ultimate Combat) books, and more customizable.

However, I think you could use the Pathfinder Custom Race rules (I'm surprised no one's mentioned them yet), toned down a little to 3.5 Standards.

[Pyromancer999]

I know I'm late to the argument, but I think this works better for some pieces of character creation than others. For example, starting everyone with a d4 for their HD, and then letting them spend more to get each other hit dice works out pretty well.
Making people buy the ability to cast, buy spell levels, or access to schools rapidly becomes much more complicated, particularly with different people trying to agree on how much something might be worth.

Perhaps we can lay out a few core characteristics, then have people buy in other attributes for flavor.
For example, make an arcane caster base class, a melee base class, a divine base class; give each one a different hit die and BAB, let people buy improvements of special class features.

Eh, this is a nice idea, but ultimately, doesn't make for a customizable character, except within one specific role.

However, I think you could use the Pathfinder Custom Race rules (I'm surprised no one's mentioned them yet), toned down a little to 3.5 Standards.

This would be a good start, if there was any way to access it.

Also, my apologies for taking a while to post a response, as finals have been catching up with me.

[Hanuman]

Shadowrun BP or Ozodrin FP

[Anachronity]

I made a custom system for spellcasting to go with my custom class system.

Spoiler

Show

A caster gains "spell power" equal to the modifier of his highest mental ability score. Spell power increases the effects of spells cast in a way that varies from spell to spell (in most cases it just increases the DC, but the spell power system allows you to improve evocation spells with high ability scores). However, you gain aptitude based on all three mental ability scores rather than just your highest (and aptitude is used to increase spells known and spells/day).

To determine the cost of the Spellcasting feature, consult the column of the highest level spell you will be able to (eventually) cast on this table, using the row appropriate to the number of schools you will have access to (maximum of 3)

Spellcasting Feature Cost
for maximum spell level of: 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th

1 school: 20/27/35/44/54/64/75

2 schools: 26/34/43/53/63/74/86

3 schools: 33/42/52/62/73/85/98

There is no longer such a thing as divine spellcasting, many iconic divine spells are now in the Divination and Necromancy schools while others have been removed entirely.

Spoiler

Show

For a class that will reach the maximum spell level given at the top of each column, that class gains access to spells of the spell level indicated by the row at the class level listed in the table.

Whenever a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spells, that spellcaster automatically gains one spell per day of that level and learns one spell of that level. In addition, a spellcaster gains aptitude each level that is spent to gain additional spells/day and learn new spells.


Maximum Spell Level: 3rd/4th/5th/6th/7th/8th/9th

1st level spells at: 4th/3rd/2nd/1st/1st/1st/1st

2nd level spells at: 7th/6th/5th/4th/3rd/3rd/3rd

3rd level spells at: 11th/9th/8th/6th/6th/5th/5th

4th level spells at: --/13th/11th/9th/8th/8th/7th

5th level spells at: --/--/14th/12th/11th/10th/9th

6th level spells at: --/--/--/15th/13th/12th/11th

7th level spells at: --/--/--/--/16th/14th/13th

8th level spells at: --/--/--/--/--/17th/15th

9th level spells at: 17th


In addition to the spells/day and spells known automatically gained, a spellcaster gains "aptitude" with which to learn new spells or cast more spells per day. A spellcaster gains aptitude according to the following formula

(3 + Int mod + Wis mod + Cha mod + Schools + (2 * new class level)) * (maximum spell level + 1)
divided by 10 with fractional results rounded down.

Thus, if Mialee has 16 Intelligence, 14 Wisdom, and 10 Charisma and access to the Evocation and Abjuration schools and levels up from 4th to 5th level, she will gain ((3 + 3 + 2 + 0 + 2 + (2 * 5)) * 10) / 10 = 20 aptitude. Next time she gains a level she will gain ((3 + 3 + 2 + 0 + 2 + (2 * 6)) * 10) / 10 = 22 aptitude.

Aptitude is used to learn new spells and gain access to more spells per day.

It costs (4+spell level) aptitude to gain an additional spell/day of a spell level you have access to
It costs (1+spell level) aptitude to learn a new spell of a spell level you have access to

Aptitude carries over from level to level, but you must be able to cast at least 4 spells/day of your current maximum spell level and know at least 5 spells of that level in order to gain access to spells of the next highest level.

When she levels up from 4th to 5th level, Mialee might spend 14 of her 20 aptitude to gain two additional 3rd level spells per day and 4 aptitude to learn a new 3rd level spell beyond the one she already knows (for gaining access to 3rd level spells). This leaves her with 2 aptitude.

When she levels up again, she might spend 7 of her 24 aptitude (22 from this level, 2 from last level) to gain an additional 3rd level spell per day and 12 aptitude to learn 3 new 3rd level spells, leaving her with 5 aptitude that will carry over to next level. This way, she will have 5 more aptitude to spend when she gains access to 4th level spells next level (since she now knows 5 3rd level spells and is able to cast 4 3rd level spells per day, meeting the requirements for 4th level spells).

Because aptitude gives access to additional spells per day, you DO NOT gain bonus spells per day based on high mental ability scores as shown in the Player's Handbook.

You can spend aptitude even if you do not level up. However, you may only do so when you have significant "down time" (at least a day, depending on how much aptitude you wish to spend).

For the aptitude I'm concerned there might be too much math (it's not especially difficult, but most people don't play fantasy games just to do math in them). I apologize for all of the slashes, but I'm not really sure how to post a table on these forums.