LGBTAitp - Part Nineteen

[Ichneumon]

Question: I'm not really that familiar with the exact differences between all the different labels (transexual, transgender, queer, etc). Could someone maybe give a few definitions? Of course there will be disagreement between what means what, but a general outline? Wikipedia was strangely enough rather unhelpful and confusing.

Unless... Oh, Iiichy? Come and plaaay! I won't trap you in the mausoleum and hide the key!

I... don't get it. I sure like the idea of playing a game though, but what's with the mausoleum and the key? Is there a reference I didn't get?

[SiuiS]

ok. I am a pony of my word, so let's see how we can divy this up. Response delayed because I noticed I had Rain up in one of my tabs >.<"

EDIT: Ichneumon, try this link in the spoiler on the very bottom. Not much, but it's almost 03:00 here so I don't have time to really reformat it for a new post. Sorry ^^"

[Silliness]

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I think this is less the kind of thread where we tar are feather people, and more the kind of thread where we give them milk and cookies.

Ooh, cookies! *absconds with the plate & glass*

*looks up from baking*
My cookies!

Your color is broken, btw.

Oh, uh... Sorry ^^ *gives cookies back*

And thanks! New hardware, isn't quite used to darkgreen being one word... Well, I mean now it is due to incessant repetition but then it wasn't. >.<

Yeah, if we were to coat anyone in a sticky brown-black substance, it would be chocolate. And we'd offer to help lick it off.

Thread as a whole, mind, not all of us as individuals.

Licking sweets off the body; fun for giver until diabetic shock; fun for receiver until it becomes an impromptu waxing

I get the hint, though, I'll stick around and stop feeling like a bother

[Clothing]

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For me they were a constant source of it (OK, not quite constant, I didn't usually have to wear formal wear when I was younger). I won't go into how much I hold formal menswear in contempt, suffice to say that being forced into it when it assaulted my personal aesthetic and served as a reminder of my unfortunate position of having to present as male (or needing to in my mind, at least) was quite unpleasant.

I always thought that would be balanced out by women looking so very much better in men's clothing than men. And by the gender divide in clothing being inherently silly, but that's because I've always had a waifish figure.

I think I can sympathize though; if a kilt is any indication, skirts and dresses are way more comfortable and fun to wear than pants or other bifurcated garments.

Wearing black is a sign of mourning in Western Culture. I wonder if emo teens in other cultures wear white?

I know some who tried it, but black is slimming, and white just sort of limns all the tiny imperfections they didn't want to show the world. White is a much harder color to pull off well, methinks.

Probably the same one who invented the bra... or corsets... or any of a myriad of other female-oriented torture devices.

I dunno. Some folks have absolutely no trouble with the garments because of their figures. I almost made $500 USD on a bet that I could go a day (full 24 hours) in a corset in comfort. The other person chickened out

On a related note, my wife thought she would be clever a while ago. *Keep in mind this was when I first mentioned my transgender curiosity. *She looked at me, grinned and said, "Okay, if you want to wear women's clothing so badly, put on my bra."

"Umm... it's a bit big for me, hon."

"No no. *Go ahead, put it on. *See if you can deal with that torture for a while."

So I tried it on. *She looked at me with great expectation, as if any moment I was going to scream in agony and turn away from my chosen path, never to return. *Instead I got a huge grin on my face (after struggling to get the blasted thing hooked in the back. *What's with that? *I can unhook a bra blindfolded with one hand (don't ask), but I can't put one on myself without an act of sheer willpower), crossed the room, found a fresh pair of panties and smiled at her. *"It's actually quite nice. *Thank you SO much. *Can I wear it the rest of the day?"

*I can be such an imp sometimes.

Well played!
I've seen the clasp issue beaten by putting it on backwards around the belly, rotating it, sliding it up the torso and then putting everything into position.

The thing is, I've seen this done. But even writing that description out, my response is "that's utter bollocks, doesn't it go against the design of the garment?" so now I'm not so sure. Maybe she was just really limber/luckily endowed?

I think bras are quite comfortable. And I've not tried a corset, but I'd like to.

Horsefeathers I Forgot why I quoted this...*
Oh! Halloween, working at pizza hut. Wore a bra for a nine hour shift and didn't notice. So I have to agree. The corset was a sloppy renn faire costume piece though so I can't comment there.

[Hair & Such]

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People, give me a kick to go get a haircut and shave and actually start trying to present as androgynous in the new year. I haven't had a haircut in over four years, the idea is oddly intimidating. I kinda want to get an actual androgynous style, as opposed to just long.

Have you examined exactly how you would be more androgynous? Specifically, what things you could change about you that would give the desired effect? Less is often more, I find, and a clear concept does wonders. And it's a lot easier to do when you think "change X, Y and Z" than "change stuff for a more generally androgynous look".*

I'm trying to grow my hair out. Not sure how to keep it flat though (It's kind of a mess), and I couldn't find the last thing that was suggested to me (Some thread by a poster whose name I can't recall off the top of my head because I didn't have much experience with her).

Do you have curly/wavy hair?
Putting it into a tight bun/ponytail immediately out of the shower, or showering just before bed and then wearing a stocking or similar to bed did it for me.

Hi everyone, I need some advise... sorry if I'm rambling.

I recently started doubting my gender identity, or actually, I recently came to terms with the fact that I have been doubting it for a very long time (really, I've been asking myself this question and yet ignoring it for many many years) and accepted that I am really not sure about whether I'd feel more comfortable being male or female and that I might indeed do have a "problem" that I at least need to face and deal with. I don't know what I am - transgender, transsexual, or maybe nothing so extreme or even if I should label myself at all- and I'm certainly not sure how that would affect concrete decisions for my future life, but I now seem to be more and more *convinced I'd rather be a girl (I'm physically a boy btw - guess I'm sort of "coming out" on these forums as well). Although I have a great fear of surgeries and don't find the idea that appealing to alter the way I am or even pretend to be something that I am not (I don't want to run away from reality, that's exactly not what this is about at all, quite the opposite, accepting who I am), so I don't know yet where to go from that point, but I feel I really just need to talk to someone who knows what they're talking about and maybe it's nothing at all and it does turn out to be just a phase and those feelings will go away and mean nothing, but at least I've dealt with them and not ignore them.*

I've done some google'ing and there is a transgender organisation in my town that allows you to make confidential appointments with them and they offer you advise and give information etc. Which, I guess, would be perfect and just what I need. Since I really just need to talk to someone and share my emotions and feelings, just so to get my head straight (no pun intended) and be less confused about my identity, so that I can make the right decisions and don't keep postponing things.

I'm really old enough to go without asking my parent's permission (I'm turning 22 next week - guess that's a bit old, right? In the hypothetical case I do in the end wanting hormone treatment and surgery?), but I'm not certain whether it is a good idea to keep this hidden from them or whether it's a good idea to "come out". I could easily go without them knowing, with very small chance of them finding out, but would it be wise? Although it is just a talk, it does feel like I'm hiding quite a big thing from them. The thing is, I don't really know yet what to tell them, other than that I've been having doubts about how I feel inside and that if the world would be simple and I could just turn a switch and be a girl- I probably would.*

So tl;dr : Should I wait to tell my parents I am questioning my gender identity and am possibly transgender till I actually know more clearly what to tell them or should I tell them I'm seeking advise?

Any other advise is welcome as well.

Given all the information you've presented, I'd say wait. You are going to see if there is even really anything to tell your parents after all, right? As far as caution goes, it is easier to understand that you wanted to make absolutely quintuplely sure before saying anything than potentially jumping the gun.

Of course, I feel weird saying be careful about jumping the gun, but I justify it by being extremely paranoid about all sorts of things. Which I suppose makes this bad advice... Or perhaps I'm explaining poorly? I'll just... Stop while my teeth are only up to my ankle >>;

I really should check if there have been more posts before I post a reaction I spend 10 minutes writing. Thank you too, Asta.

I think that's indeed what I'm gonna go. Will give them a call next week and see when I can get an appointment.

From experience; under the window where you type in your response is a list of all posts at the end of the thread, in reverse. After you type something up, hit "Preview". Then, scroll down and see if anything new has shown up that you want to respond to.

Seeing as I usually spend upward of 30+ minutes on a 'small' post, I use this with frequency.

We need a list of queers that can help in specific topics via PM if they so choose :p

~ ♅

...Isn't that what the thread here is for?

Are there support groups for relatives to transgender people? It can be a rather major adjustment, after all.

... Isn't that what the thread here is for?

I mean, I understand wanting a more intimate and private setting for details such as would be discussed, especially as the odds of conversation diverging to technically non-thread worthy minutia are high. But generally, I understood that this sort of support was the point of the thread, and that it was considered better, in the end, to make it something to discuss openly rather than seem like a dirty secret?

And adjusting to a family member or friend who comes out is still a LGBTA+ issue - its one thing to be open to the concept, and another to remain so magnanimous when your life and relationship with someone is being torn apart by curve balls. Even more so when the general sentiment is "it's hard for them, so suck it up and deal with your problems later/you have no right to have problems with this".

Am I incorrect?

Well, we broke up a few months ago and don't really see each other that often any more. The relationship didn't really work for many reasons. One of which, which seems somewhat significant now, was that she felt I was too often acting like the woman in the relationship (and she had to act to often as "the man"). *On my part a large reason was that I just didn't feel comfortable, being a boyfriend and doing boyfriendish-stuff. Often times it felt like I was playing an act or doing things "like they have to be done".*

I've found that establishing what you want out of a relationship before hand is a rather useful measure. I've also found that it often gets in the way of actually for in that relationship. *shrug*

It is interesting to note the implied gender roles. If you don't mind my asking, what things did you feel you had to do that we're 'masculine' or 'an act'?

[Kindablue]

I love men's formal wear. I pretend like I'm James Bond most of the time anyway, so it really helps with the illusion.

EDIT: Ichneumon, try this link

QUILTBAG... need to use that in conversation somehow...

...Isn't that what the thread here is for?

What about issues that are either so personal that people would be uncomfortable discussing them (even in relative anonymity) in what is essentially public, or issues that involve sex, religion, or politics?

Question: I'm not really that familiar with the exact differences between all the different labels (transexual, transgender, queer, etc). Could someone maybe give a few definitions? Of course there will be disagreement between what means what, but a general outline? Wikipedia was strangely enough rather unhelpful and confusing.

I found this glossary to be helpful.

[Asta Kask]

I found this glossary to be helpful.

Just don't read the rest of the thread, because it goes south fairly quickly...

It's interesting (and troubling) because the skeptic movement is good at accepting homosexuals and bisexuals. But when a transgender person turns up, a small group of people begin talking about 'real' men and women and how that has to do with chromosomes, etc. It is a small group but as someone who wants the skeptics to be as accepting as possible it's really frustrating. Natalie who wrote that glossary left the boards soon afterwards because she was so frustrated...

Sorry, that was a rant. Please come to that board and try to make things better, but be aware that there may be difficulties. We're not a bad bunch, but... yeah, rambling, I am doing it.

[turkishproverb]

Well, back from the dark place.

[Ichneumon]

Thanks for all the links! They're really helpful.

I've found that establishing what you want out of a relationship before hand is a rather useful measure. I've also found that it often gets in the way of actually for in that relationship. *shrug*

It is interesting to note the implied gender roles. If you don't mind my asking, what things did you feel you had to do that we're 'masculine' or 'an act'?[/color]

Well, it's often the boy who takes initiative for things, is protective and somewhat more "aggressive" and generally the "active"* one, including when it comes to intimacy. Taking on that role felt forced and unnatural.

(*I certainly don't mean "active" in a sense that you need to work for your relationship or make sacrifices, since that's something both people need to do, it's difficult to explain and find a word for it. Someone know what I mean?)

[Asta Kask]

Well, back from the dark place.

The place where the sun doesn't shine?

[Lanaya]

I feel a need to rant. I apologise if this is disjointed or repetitive, I'm not in a coherent and concise mood. My sexuality is kinda weird, I'm male but am only interested in sex from the female perspective. I fantasise exclusively about being female, thinking about sex from the male perspective completely fails to do it for me, it can't even hold my attention and after a few seconds of trying I'll start thinking about something else. A quick Google search shows that there are certainly other people who fantastise about being the opposite sex and who are assured that it's fine, it's just fantasy, doesn't really mean anything, carry on with your life. Which is great. But I haven't seen any reference to people who are only interested in being the opposite sex, and for me it kinda does affect real life, because, well, I'm just not interested in the idea of having sex in real life. I understand in a detached, logical sense that it would be enjoyable if I did, but detached logical thought really isn't enough to convince me to pursue sex.

But it's not that I don't have a sex drive, I do, and I want to want to have sex, because from what I hear sex is pretty good. I'll see someone attractive and think "damn, she's hot", but the thought of actually tapping that (to use crude, tasteless language) is... kinda icky, actually. But then, the thought of having sex as a woman is rather appealing, so I have the desire and I have the equipment, they just don't match. The idea of spending the rest of my life unfulfilled and mildly frustrated isn't exactly exciting. qqqqqqqqqqwoeajisdpaoairjoasdpaodem. That is my not-happy word. I'm not really sure where to go from here, so this seems as good a time as any to end this rant.

This has been a rather negative post, so to balance it out I found a picture of a dog wearing an AT-AT costume.

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[Asta Kask]

So... you are attracted to women (and men?) but you can only find sex from the female perspective attractive? Am I getting it correctly?

Do you feel male?

[Ichneumon]

I feel a need to rant. I apologise if this is disjointed or repetitive, I'm not in a coherent and concise mood.

It's cool.

I fantasise exclusively about being female, thinking about sex from the male perspective completely fails to do it for me, it can't even hold my attention and after a few seconds of trying I'll start thinking about something else. A quick Google search shows that there are certainly other people who fantastise about being the opposite sex and who are assured that it's fine, it's just fantasy, doesn't really mean anything, carry on with your life. Which is great. But I haven't seen any reference to people who are only interested in being the opposite sex, and for me it kinda does affect real life, because, well, I'm just not interested in the idea of having sex in real life.

I certainly can't give you meaningful advice, but I just wanted to let you know I think I understand what you mean and that, if I do understand you correctly, I do this too, including the "only interested" part.

I'll see someone attractive and think "damn, she's hot", but the thought of actually tapping that (to use crude, tasteless language) is... kinda icky, actually.

This certainly sounds familiar.

This has been a rather negative post, so to balance it out I found a picture of a dog wearing an AT-AT costume.

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I like the dog.

[KenderWizard]

Heard on a call-in show:

Love it!

People, give me a kick to go get a haircut and shave and actually start trying to present as androgynous in the new year. I haven't had a haircut in over four years, the idea is oddly intimidating. I kinda want to get an actual androgynous style, as opposed to just long.

Go with a friend, and have some ideas of what you want! And go for it, it's going to be great!

I want to look androgynous, but... sadly, my chest won't let me

Yeah, I'm just the wrong shape. Androgynous in that sexy svelte David Bowie way is not compatible with my curves. I'm all breasts and hips and tummy and thighs, and I have a girly face.

I disagree. I think it's one of these things when it depends. Personally I stopped wearing bras years ago because when you have heavy breasts bras turn your breasts into a "frontpack" due to the straps, and I was in a lot of shoulder pain. Corsets, which provide support from the bottom up, are way more comfortable to me, as is wearing no underwear at all. But I've also heard some women say they couldn't imagine going without one, so it probably varies from one person to the next.

I think the idea of bras is that the weight is mostly held by the wide bit that goes around your torso. The shoulder straps are for keeping everything the right shape and together. You're supposed to be able to slide your finger under your shoulder strap easily. I don't know, my breasts are only a little above average, but certainly all the people with larger breasts I know found it difficult to get bras alright, but were generally sorted after a good fitting and a proper sturdy bra.

Question: I'm not really that familiar with the exact differences between all the different labels (transexual, transgender, queer, etc). Could someone maybe give a few definitions? Of course there will be disagreement between what means what, but a general outline? Wikipedia was strangely enough rather unhelpful and confusing.

We do have our little dictionary of terms in the first post, if you haven't browsed through that.

[Mina Kobold]

Question: I'm not really that familiar with the exact differences between all the different labels (transexual, transgender, queer, etc). Could someone maybe give a few definitions? Of course there will be disagreement between what means what, but a general outline? Wikipedia was strangely enough rather unhelpful and confusing.



I... don't get it. I sure like the idea of playing a game though, but what's with the mausoleum and the key? Is there a reference I didn't get?

The joke was that the only other way I could fix people remembering past me was to get rid of them, in this case by luring them into a mausoleum and locking them in there. Sorry, I did not mean to cause confusion. m(_ _)m

To make up for my horrible attempts at humour, I will point out that there is a list of definitions in our first post! And also that playing games is indeed fun. :3

[Lix Lorn]

Yeah, that was 120 lbs. ago as well. I was thin as a rake in school, and I'm... not any longer.

Excuses excuses. Make with the photo shoot!

I feel a need to rant. I apologise if this is disjointed or repetitive, I'm not in a coherent and concise mood. My sexuality is kinda weird, I'm male but am only interested in sex from the female perspective. I fantasise exclusively about being female, thinking about sex from the male perspective completely fails to do it for me, it can't even hold my attention and after a few seconds of trying I'll start thinking about something else. A quick Google search shows that there are certainly other people who fantastise about being the opposite sex and who are assured that it's fine, it's just fantasy, doesn't really mean anything, carry on with your life. Which is great. But I haven't seen any reference to people who are only interested in being the opposite sex, and for me it kinda does affect real life, because, well, I'm just not interested in the idea of having sex in real life. I understand in a detached, logical sense that it would be enjoyable if I did, but detached logical thought really isn't enough to convince me to pursue sex.

But it's not that I don't have a sex drive, I do, and I want to want to have sex, because from what I hear sex is pretty good. I'll see someone attractive and think "damn, she's hot", but the thought of actually tapping that (to use crude, tasteless language) is... kinda icky, actually. But then, the thought of having sex as a woman is rather appealing, so I have the desire and I have the equipment, they just don't match. The idea of spending the rest of my life unfulfilled and mildly frustrated isn't exactly exciting. qqqqqqqqqqwoeajisdpaoairjoasdpaodem. That is my not-happy word. I'm not really sure where to go from here, so this seems as good a time as any to end this rant.

This has been a rather negative post, so to balance it out I found a picture of a dog wearing an AT-AT costume.

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That is an awesome dog.

I feel your pain here. I feel pretty much exactly the same, but I'm already trans. It does sound to me like it could be something like that, but I'm not an expert or anything.

[Astrella]

Wow! I leave 2 days and there's pages and pages of thread! In a new one, no less!

I want to look androgynous, but... sadly, my chest won't let me

Hmmm, have you considered maybe checking out binding (if you haven't yet)?

Question: I'm not really that familiar with the exact differences between all the different labels (transexual, transgender, queer, etc). Could someone maybe give a few definitions? Of course there will be disagreement between what means what, but a general outline? Wikipedia was strangely enough rather unhelpful and confusing.

Well, the summary in the first post is a good start, but I can't really think of a summary that is as extensive as the one KindaBlue provided.

I mean, I understand wanting a more intimate and private setting for details such as would be discussed, especially as the odds of conversation diverging to technically non-thread worthy minutia are high. But generally, I understood that this sort of support was the point of the thread, and that it was considered better, in the end, to make it something to discuss openly rather than seem like a dirty secret?

And adjusting to a family member or friend who comes out is still a LGBTA+ issue - its one thing to be open to the concept, and another to remain so magnanimous when your life and relationship with someone is being torn apart by curve balls. Even more so when the general sentiment is "it's hard for them, so suck it up and deal with your problems later/you have no right to have problems with this".

Am I incorrect?

I think Asta was more asking the question in general; as in he just wondered if there are support groups for that as well in real / cyberspace.

I feel a need to rant. I apologise if this is disjointed or repetitive, I'm not in a coherent and concise mood. My sexuality is kinda weird, I'm male but am only interested in sex from the female perspective. I fantasise exclusively about being female, thinking about sex from the male perspective completely fails to do it for me, it can't even hold my attention and after a few seconds of trying I'll start thinking about something else. A quick Google search shows that there are certainly other people who fantastise about being the opposite sex and who are assured that it's fine, it's just fantasy, doesn't really mean anything, carry on with your life. Which is great. But I haven't seen any reference to people who are only interested in being the opposite sex, and for me it kinda does affect real life, because, well, I'm just not interested in the idea of having sex in real life. I understand in a detached, logical sense that it would be enjoyable if I did, but detached logical thought really isn't enough to convince me to pursue sex.

But it's not that I don't have a sex drive, I do, and I want to want to have sex, because from what I hear sex is pretty good. I'll see someone attractive and think "damn, she's hot", but the thought of actually tapping that (to use crude, tasteless language) is... kinda icky, actually. But then, the thought of having sex as a woman is rather appealing, so I have the desire and I have the equipment, they just don't match. The idea of spending the rest of my life unfulfilled and mildly frustrated isn't exactly exciting. qqqqqqqqqqwoeajisdpaoairjoasdpaodem. That is my not-happy word. I'm not really sure where to go from here, so this seems as good a time as any to end this rant.

This has been a rather negative post, so to balance it out I found a picture of a dog wearing an AT-AT costume.

Spoiler

Show

Well, the feeling is familiar for me; just the thought of having sex as male-bodied (and definitely sex directly involving the 'ahem' equipment down there) can give me a small panic attack / large feeling of unease.

Question: do you have this feeling in other situations as well? Or is it mostly a sexual thing? (because you know, just cause you are male doesn't mean you can only have PiV sex, gender role reversal and the such, what I mean is you can have sex as male bodied without necessarily having to feel male doing it.)

*insert a rant about how society could do with a much healthier attitude towards sex and a lot more communication about it in general; making it "taboo" but highly desirable is rather toxic, cause it precludes people from properly communication their desires and don'ts.*

Also; yay, Doggie!

Also, hi and welcome. *hugs*

[Asta Kask]

You may want to avoid Amazon, although I don't think I'll bother (not that I shop much online anyway).

[Kindablue]

Just don't read the rest of the thread, because it goes south fairly quickly...

It's interesting (and troubling) because the skeptic movement is good at accepting homosexuals and bisexuals. But when a transgender person turns up, a small group of people begin talking about 'real' men and women and how that has to do with chromosomes, etc. It is a small group but as someone who wants the skeptics to be as accepting as possible it's really frustrating. Natalie who wrote that glossary left the boards soon afterwards because she was so frustrated...

Sorry, that was a rant. Please come to that board and try to make things better, but be aware that there may be difficulties. We're not a bad bunch, but... yeah, rambling, I am doing it.

I used to post there fairly frequently, but I left after growing sour to the community near the end of last year. I still lurk occasionally, though. There are a lot of smart people there, and the discussions are often pretty thought provocative. I've never read that whole thread in particular, but it looks like a good example of the wickedness of idle men (and women, of course), with just one or two posters actually arguing with her and almost none arguing against them.

The problem a lot of skeptics* have with trans people is, like everyone else, just ignorance. A lot of them probably also think that the division between biological and psychological gender is a bit too close to dualism and have a gut reaction to call the whole thing bull**** before thinking it through more completely.

* Beyond the forum; I remember an episode of the podcast in which Jay basically said the same thing about a trans man (who was pregnant or something; I can't remember why they were talking about it anymore) not actually being a man, only to have Rebecca pretty vehemently, and rightly, shoot him down.

[Asta Kask]

I think the main problem is mistaking technology for science. They'll* say something like "Chromosomes are the scientific method to determine sex, so no matter what transsexuals can't actually change their sex." And my and others' point is that there are many scientifical methods to determine sex; chromosome counting is just the method with all the gadgets.

Making a survey, asking people to self-identify as male or female (or intersex, if you know about them and feel the referees will let you get away with it) is a perfectly valid, scientific way to determine someone's sex.

*a small group of them, mind you. I'm not the only shining exception.

[Kindablue]

Yes, and unlike chromosome counting, surveys and self reporting are a soft scientific way for determining someone's sex.

And I do still identify myself with the movement, by the way.

[Astrella]

Not to say that if you go by chromosomes, there are quite a few more sexes then just XX and XY.

[KenderWizard]

On a semi-related note, I'm currently reading Caitlin Moran's semi-autobiographical feminist wordsplosion How To Be a Woman, which I got for Christmas. I don't agree with everything she says, but she talks about stuff in a funny and honest way, and, really, I'm just glad there's a current popular book that deals with women's issues in an accessible way. (She talks about periods, for one thing! )

Anyway, one problem I have with her is that she often says "Women are like this" or "Men are all..." or "One thing all women have in common is...". Now, unsurprisingly, the first people to be excluded are transwomen ("The one thing all women have - aside from a vagina obviously" or similar), but I get the impression that's just her not thinking about them (which isn't right, but is, in my view, less wrong than deliberately excluding them). The second group to be excluded are all women who don't live in first world countries, also unsurprisingly. But she also makes bizarre sweeping statements like saying all women have a collection of unworn or only-worn-once shoes hidden shamefully in their house. Or all women have elaborate fantasies about relationships and men never do. I know this isn't new or special, and in fact, this is a very tame example. I think things hit you worse when they're coming from someone who's on "your side".

Anyway, what I'm getting around to is; I'm starting to think the only thing "all women" share is the self-identification of "woman". And the same with men. You can't say "all women have vaginas" or "all women have XX chromosomes", or "all women are compassionate", or "all women have breasts", or "all women have a collection of shame-shoes", or "all women were little girls once" or "all women want a white wedding" or anything at all except "all women are women". Is that okay? I mean, is "woman" or "man" supposed to mean something more than that? (I think I'm having an entire-world identity crises here! )

Wait, (trigger warning)

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It might be true that "all women have a statistically higher chance of being a victim of sexual assault".

Also, none of that is to detract from How To Be a Woman being a really cool and funny book that does talk about loads of important stuff, and anyone who's interested in being or being with (in any sense of the phrase) a woman should give it a look!

[H Birchgrove]

Or all women have elaborate fantasies about relationships and men never do.

How does she define "elaborate" and "relationships"? Because I consider my imaginary relationships to be quite elaborate, since they include polyamory, gender****ing (my censoring), fantastic elements, philosophical discussions etc.

[Kindablue]

Anyway, what I'm getting around to is; I'm starting to think the only thing "all women" share is the self-identification of "woman". And the same with men. You can't say "all women have vaginas" or "all women have XX chromosomes", or "all women are compassionate", or "all women have breasts", or "all women have a collection of shame-shoes", or "all women were little girls once" or "all women want a white wedding" or anything at all except "all women are women". Is that okay? I mean, is "woman" or "man" supposed to mean something more than that? (I think I'm having an entire-world identity crises here! )

Wait, (trigger warning)

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It might be true that "all women have a statistically higher chance of being a victim of sexual assault".

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"All women have a statistically higher chance of having a vagina" or "all women have a statistically higher chance of having been little girls once," etc, etc.

But other than that, I agree.

[Asta Kask]

Not to say that if you go by chromosomes, there are quite a few more sexes then just XX and XY.

Yeah, I was overlooking that to make things easier. Like intersex defined by other methods (like self-report), they are so rare that a person might say something like "While there are other possibilities, I'll restrict myself to this because it suits the purpose of the survey. I'm satisfied with classifying 99% of the population." If you wanted to be inclusive to all possibilities, you'd end up with a forteen-page survey containing one question.

Just look at the difficulties we have with including the entire alphabet in the thread name, to make sure no one feels left out. In the end I think we'll have to settle for a) not being all-inclusive, or b) introduce a catch-all term for "all the rest" (queer?).

[Reluctance]

Lanaya: My first reaction involves a relatively short, simple answer that would get the post scrubbed for graphic language. None of them directed at you. It's just easiest to get across how simple your situation is involves the use of mental images that pass the PG barrier.

Instead, I'll recommend you throw your question to someone like Dan Savage or The Kinsey Institute. If you only fantasize about being a woman for sex play, they'll be able to explain just how unexceptional a kink that is.

[Mina Kobold]

I think the main problem is mistaking technology for science. They'll* say something like "Chromosomes are the scientific method to determine sex, so no matter what transsexuals can't actually change their sex." And my and others' point is that there are many scientifical methods to determine sex; chromosome counting is just the method with all the gadgets.

Making a survey, asking people to self-identify as male or female (or intersex, if you know about them and feel the referees will let you get away with it) is a perfectly valid, scientific way to determine someone's sex.

*a small group of them, mind you. I'm not the only shining exception.

Chromosomes:

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I would correct them on that first one. Only Chromosome pair 23 determines anything about sex, and that is only the genotypes.

Sex happens to be a mix of phenotypes, however which makes that argument sound kind of like arguing that an individual do not have brown eyes with the genotype Brownblue on Chromosome 15 or do have brown eyes with BrownBrown even if external causes change them to another colour.

At least, that's how I understand it. Anyone with actual expertise are free to point out my own ignorance.

Wouldn't the survey determine gender? I thought sex was the physical characteristics and not the mental one. Did I misunderstand?

Sorry for the inconvenience. m(_ _)m

PS: The comment about gadgets made me imagine cyborg Chromosomes. My mind is silly. :3

[Asta Kask]

Wouldn't the survey determine gender? I thought sex was the physical characteristics and not the mental one. Did I misunderstand?

Depends on what you ask. The study I've been involved in asked for "sex" - partly because if we asked for "gender" people wouldn't understand what the hell we meant.

In many cases it has no bearing on the study. It's there because a) it's always been there, and b) you need it for the 'demographics' table and you can't get it published without that table.

PS: The comment about gadgets made me imagine cyborg Chromosomes. My mind is silly. :3

Now I want cyber-chromosomes.

[Mystic Muse]

What about issues that are either so personal that people would be uncomfortable discussing them (even in relative anonymity) in what is essentially public, or issues that involve sex, religion, or politics?

For issues involving Sex, religion, or politics, you should take it off the board entirely. While it's unlikely the mods will search through your PM box at all, board rules still apply within PM.

[Asta Kask]

Excuses excuses. Make with the photo shoot!

Pics or it didn't happen. No pics so it never happened.

ETA: I think I've posted about this before, but what the heck. James Randi explains why he came out.

[KenderWizard]

How does she define "elaborate" and "relationships"? Because I consider my imaginary relationships to be quite elaborate, since they include polyamory, gender****ing (my censoring), fantastic elements, philosophical discussions etc.

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

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"All women have a statistically higher chance of having a vagina" or "all women have a statistically higher chance of having been little girls once," etc, etc.

But other than that, I agree.

Huh, interesting point.

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I think "women are statistically more likely to have vaginas" is different from "each woman is statistically more likely to suffer sexual assault". Those two are the same for a group of women (like the group All Women Ever), but different for an individual woman. My personal statistical chance of having a vagina is 1. I'm trying to think of something all women share. It's a subtle distinction, but I think it's there. Each woman in a group of women either has a vagina or doesn't have a vagina. For an outsider, zir chance of pulling out someone with a vagina is high. But for an individual woman, there's no chance about it, it's either there or not there. Whereas the potential for a sexual assault today is always a chance, and women, of all kinds, share a higher chance than do men. It still doesn't work perfectly, because it's not true that every single woman in the world is at higher risk than every single person who is not a woman. So, I'm back to "all women are women", really!

[Viera Champion]

She was talking about those in-depth long-term crushes a lot of people (I think) get, where you imagine yourself in a detailed and well-thought-out imaginary relationship with someone, complete with a story of how you met, future plans, pets, in-jokes, funny stories, etc. Not like a delusion, where you think it's going to happen any second, just that you've thought about being with this person so much and fantasised about all parts of the relationship so thoroughly, it's got almost as much detail as a real relationship might. Her ones seem particularly elaborate. I think this practice is especially common among, but not exclusive to, teenage girls.

Happened to me before.