Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Serpentine]

I've done all of the above. He won't believe me, and he's already called me a bitch, ta.

edit: Dad advice: "Not much you can do about it, so just put it away."

[Reluctance]

Why couldn't we have this conversation when he's sober?

Because when we're sober, we can check our hobgoblins. It's after we've had a few that all the collected unreasonable slights come out to play. (Believe you me. There's a reason I don't drink.)

Still, multiple levels of jaw-droppage here. First, it sounds like you two have been broken up long enough for him to have caught on that "I'll be with you forever" is just one of those empty things people say. It's like "we can cut taxes, raise spending, and still balance the budget"; nobody in their right mind actually believes it.

And then the part where he ragged on you like that. You, my dear, are owed a good number of apologies. Or you owe a good number of ass-kickings. Not just from/to him, if your other posts are any indication.

[The Succubus]

Well, one thought that did occur - you've been planning this "round the world" trip of yours for at least a year if memory serves. I'd have thought it would have cropped up in conversation with him at least once. It's unlikely that he would fail to realise that the relationship would change as a result of this.

As Asta said, if he made assumptions about the future of the relationship, then he doesn't really have any grounds to blame you. Honestly, it does just sound like a mis-communication. Unfortunately, it doesn't really make it any less painful for your or him as a result. *hug*

Edit: Dad Advice is good advice. Mostly. Except when it comes to navigation. Or anything explosive. -.-

[Serpentine]

The context of that conversation was rather dramatic and emotional... But I still can't think I would've said something so dishonest - or more accurately, I can't think I would've believed (because I wouldn't have said it if I didn't mean it) something so out of sync with everything else I thought, even in such an intense relationship-shifting moment I don't know. Maybe everything just got confused.

He has apologised now, anyway. And I've said I want to talk when he's sober. And I've told him I'll think about this thing he said: "you've always been cavalier when it comes to other people feelings and I need you to own up to that".

[Reluctance]

Fun story: Once, when I was fooling around with a girl I only kinda knew, I asked if she wanted anything more to happen. It was one of those throwaway lines, and frankly I don't remember saying it. The only reason it sticks in my head at all is because a year later, when I mentioned how I only lucked into an awesome relationship because I decided to play along with her until she got bored. She reminded me of when I made the first move, asking if she wanted anything more out of the relationship.

The moral of the story? There's always a chance you'll misinterpret the other person. Including that you'll say yes to one thing when they meant something else entirely. Sometimes it works out well. Most of the time, not so well. All you can do is be thoughtful, and try to surround yourself with people who match that.

[rogueboy]

Edit: Dad Advice is good advice. Mostly. Except when it comes to navigation. Or anything explosive. -.-

Unless Dad's someone who spent 20 years driving around for a living (real estate appraiser, in my case). Then Dad Advice is awesome for navigation!

[Coidzor]

Oh, hey, that thing actually has a name? I thought I was just weird .

Not being able to so much as even notice whether someone is attractive until you're already their friend makes things rather more awkward than usual, yes .

Mhm, should be some links on the subject by now in the LGBTA thread's opening post. If not, then somewhere in the last 10 or so pages I believe someone linked to a wiki with a fairly good article on the subject.

I don't blame you. As far as I've seen, Coid's done little more than denigrate you, belittle you and completely disregard anything you've actually said - as opposed to what he thinks you've said - from the very start

Whereas I see it as a series of miscommunications that had the two of us chasing our ephemeral tails so I just gave up on communicating my original point, as I doubt it would have been received even if we could stop talking past one another.

Sadly I'm not a master of communications and can always re-route the conversation so that I can make myself understood when things get blown off course.

In any event, I'm pretty sure I already acknowledged that I had misread his initial input on the subject.

As for your conundrum, well, most people are fairly cavalier about it to some extent, so it's a rather easy accusation to make and a damned difficult one to disprove or shake.

Rather odd that your leaving the country and not coming back didn't come up even a couple of times though.

[term1nally s1ck]

Just a heads up, coid, but "You don't sound like you're doing X bad thing yet" is not as positive a statement as you seem to think. It's almost always going to be taken badly, and that's where the breakdown of communication started.

[Coidzor]

Just a heads up, coid, but "You don't sound like you're doing X bad thing yet" is not as positive a statement as you seem to think. It's almost always going to be taken badly, and that's where the breakdown of communication started.

He's the one that brought up being worried that he was becoming or being one. So, while, yes, in retrospect, it was a poor choice, it made sense in context from his presentation.

The expectation that one avoid that kind of language entirely in light of how it was brought up just strikes me as completely unreasonable.

So, yes, I suppose the fairly reasonable assumption that one would only ask that if one had a guilty conscience in the first place and thus knew that one was doing something either wrong or that one thought was wrong, the only question was what was wrong and how wrong it actually was.

I acknowledged this when, upon further probing, nothing untoward beyond wanting to boink her came to light. Which is something I personally disagree with, but, as far as I could tell, I was not presenting it in a moral absolute sense. So, if I was appearing to be speaking from a position of absolute knowledge of the morality of the universe, I apologize.

However, I find this questionable as most of my fellow posters involved in this discussion know the foibles of how positions have to be put forth on the internet and would not casually or readily make that assumption out of hand.

I don't really see myself as having done that so much as having had my words either badly misinterpreted and misapplied to different contexts or blown way out of proportion.

[term1nally s1ck]

He was worried about being a 'Nice guy', you came out with:

You don't sound like you're being a "nice guy" yet, but that'd be because you don't sound sexually frustrated or like you think that being the neuter pillow who doesn't have feelings that can be hurt or a personality that can be impinged will get you anywhere with her.

When you drop 'you don't sound like' in front of that, there's the implication that is still might all be true anyway, which is what puts people on the defensive.

Tell you what, lets reverse it.

You might be being a "nice guy", if you felt sexually frustrated or you think that being the neuter pillow who doesn't have feelings that can be hurt or a personality that can be impinged will get you anywhere with her, though it doesn't sound quite like it.

The meaning is identical. Can you now see why the message taken is very very negative and makes people feel attacked and defensive?

[bhtooefr]

Hmm, might as well hop into this thread.

I'm 23, and one of those "forever alone" types, you could say - never had a relationship beyond a friendship, and not for lack of trying.

Compounding this is the fact that I'm rather picky (largely on personality, but I'll admit that looks matter too). And, I'm weird, too (something tells me that that's not uncommon on this forum ;)) - I boycott the RIAA and MPAA (even when their content is legally free), meaning that I actively avoid knowledge of popular culture, and I've even missed quite a lot of mainstream nerd culture (for instance, I never ended up seeing any of the Star Wars movies, and now that I'm boycotting the MPAA, I never will.)

On the flip side, I'm only restricting myself to dating on the same continent, so... that increases the dating pool significantly.

I wouldn't consider myself demisexual per se - if I see someone physically attractive, those internal functions, well, function - but I have no desire to actually do anything with someone that I'm not already friends with.

But, every time I've tried something, I've been rejected - either because of a lack of interest, not being single (that one was interested in me), or not being ready for a relationship.

Oh, and the school that I went to from third grade all the way through high school, due to their specialties (mental health, behavioral handicaps, and learning disabilities), for whatever reason, they ended up having very few girls, and the ones that they DID have were, well, of poor mental health (and that's NEVER fun to deal with), or were of... too low intellect to hold an interesting conversation with. Or both. So, high school was... not good in that respect for me.

I suck at bringing up the subject of a potential relationship up with the woman I'm interested in, though - I just don't really know how to do it, and I also end up getting extremely nervous, and either not doing it at all, or fumbling it massively. It's not being intimidated by women in general - I can talk all day about anything other than that with anyone, regardless of gender, but dating is this massive block that I don't know how to do, and my attempts fail. (And, I've been told the "just kiss her already" advice, but I get nervous that that'll cross a "creepy" line, and don't do it, and then apparently do something that doesn't have "game"...)

My recent fear is, I'm getting to the point where... I have zero experience, at my age - so how does that look to women who I consider equals, but have almost certainly had experience, or even lots of it (note that I don't consider sexual or romantic experience a bad thing, if it was done responsibly)? And, I have trouble standing most women even my own age, much less younger, and it's to the point where it's CREEPY AS HELL to date someone who is of an age where she wouldn't have any real experience. (Age divided by two plus 7 formula comes out at 18.5, and most 18 year old women have at least dated, and I'd guess that most have sexual experience beyond themselves as well. And, I'd be kinda creeped out even going that young.)

[DeadManSleeping]

1. If you have no sexual experience, a partner who does have experience will make the whole ordeal better for everyone.

2. You know what? Yes, making a move might cross a line. But anybody who's worth your time will at least try to repair your friendship from whatever damage asking them out might have caused. People who leave you for having romantic desires were never real friends. As long as you can handle "no means no", then you're fine.

[bhtooefr]

1. If you have no sexual experience, a partner who does have experience will make the whole ordeal better for everyone.

And that's one reason that I have no problem at all with my first experiences being with an experienced partner. (The other reason would be, who cares if she's experienced, as long as she's responsible about it, and I won't catch any diseases?)

But, my fear is along the lines of, an experienced potential partner might not be interested in me, because of my lack of experience, and inability to satisfy them. (And I'm worried that I'd be unable to satisfy them if something were to happen.)

2. You know what? Yes, making a move might cross a line. But anybody who's worth your time will at least try to repair your friendship from whatever damage asking them out might have caused. People who leave you for having romantic desires were never real friends. As long as you can handle "no means no", then you're fine.

In most cases, women who rejected me did try to remain friends, although in one case, I was literally driven insane by NOT being able to handle "no means no" while also respecting her (she was by far my closest friend at the time, and put quite a lot into trying to help me get over her... that didn't work, that just made me want to be with her more), which ultimately led to me quitting my job (and also me keeping my distance to an extent from female coworkers in all of my jobs after that, so that I don't fall for them) and things fell apart because of that. I never forced the issue in that case, but I realized I needed to not see her every day. (And, there were like three or four times I nearly suicided over that one. Yeah, I've closed myself off to an extent, to never let myself get that attached to anyone ever again.) In another case, we ended up going our separate ways over a completely unrelated issue (which made me glad that she rejected me, though - let's just say that I learned a lot about her in that case, and it would have made a relationship between us horrendously damaging for both of us).

[DeadManSleeping]

But, my fear is along the lines of, an experienced potential partner might not be interested in me, because of my lack of experience, and inability to satisfy them. (And I'm worried that I'd be unable to satisfy them if something were to happen.)

Lots of guys don't know how to satisfy a woman sexually. You get an excuse and she'll actually be patient with you, and as long as you let her tell you what she wants, she'll probably have a fine time.

[Starwulf]

Lots of guys don't know how to satisfy a woman sexually. You get an excuse and she'll actually be patient with you, and as long as you let her tell you what she wants, she'll probably have a fine time.

Just to back this up and drive it into your skull now, ALWAYS LISTEN TO WHAT THE WOMAN WANTS. Sex isn't just about yourself(as far to many of my friends seem to think), and the more you focus on pleasing her, the more she'll focus on pleasing you, and that much more fun is had.

[bhtooefr]

Just to back this up and drive it into your skull now, ALWAYS LISTEN TO WHAT THE WOMAN WANTS. Sex isn't just about yourself(as far to many of my friends seem to think), and the more you focus on pleasing her, the more she'll focus on pleasing you, and that much more fun is had.

At least that much I know - and if and when I'd ever have an encounter, I'd actually ASK her what she wants, and tell her to let me know whether that's working for her - if she wants me to do something differently, to change it.

[Heliomance]

I acknowledged this when, upon further probing, nothing untoward beyond wanting to boink her came to light.

"Boink"?

No. At no point did I ever say that. I don't want to "boink" her, I would like to have a romantic, emotional, and meaningful relationship with her. Whether or not, at some point down the line, that involves sex seems largely irrelevant - and given my views on sex, namely that I don't want to do it with anyone I don't have a reasonable expectation of spending the rest of my life with, it would be a long way down the line. I am unsure precisely what I said to give you the impression that "boink" was an appropriate word to use, and I am further unsure as to why you personally disagree with it. Could you clarify, please?

[Dvil]

...<snip>...
In another case, we ended up going our separate ways over a completely unrelated issue (which made me glad that she rejected me, though - let's just say that I learned a lot about her in that case, and it would have made a relationship between us horrendously damaging for both of us).

I just wanted to post to say this one thing. This, right here, tells me a lot about you. It tells me you're a confident person who knows what he wants in a relationship. It tells me that despite being in a dry spell (and that's all this is) you're not so desperate as to not recognise a potential bad relationship. It tells me that you really don't need to worry about being a "forever alone", as you described yourself.

Seriously, find someone you want to be with and hang out a lot with her. If you still want to be with her after a couple weeks, make a move. Can't hurt. Your posts tell me that you're doubting yourself right now, but ultimately you have a strong spirit and you're a confident person. Just let that shine through mate, you'll be so much the better for it

[AtlanteanTroll]

AT: Partially thrill of the hunt, which wears off after you've made some headway. And from what I've seen of you before, I wouldn't be surprised if some element of your attraction was based on some ideal that had to give ground as you got to know the real girl.

Dammit it all, you're probably right. It's not even that I don't like her now that I know her a bit better. Stupid, stupid psyche.

[Ancano]

I've been told that you need to love yourself before others can love you.

What if I hate myself? Do I have any hope of finding love?

[H Birchgrove]

I cannot comment. Honestly, I'm pickier physically with guys than girls, so that might get in the way. And I'd want to at least know you a little better than Internet level first. But... maybe...

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It's because I'm fat, isn't it? :´-(

I cannot fault you for that, I'm very much the same on that topic.

[Mando Knight]

What if I hate myself? Do I have any hope of finding love?

It's slim to none, and mostly in a Beauty & The Beast way (i.e. girl sees a spark of something in boy, boy finally realizes he's actually worth loving, relationship flourishes)... or self-destructive. Narcissism is bad, but being frozen in a self-despising state causes relationships to fail.

[golentan]

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It's because I'm fat, isn't it? :´-(

Only in the good ways. *squeezes wild rumpus*

I cannot fault you for that, I'm very much the same on that topic.

You *can* fault me for it if you choose, I won't hold it against you.

[Frozen_Feet]

What if I hate myself? Do I have any hope of finding love?

Before worrying about love, ask why do you hate yourself? And then, whether you can do something about it?

You won't reach fruits from a tree from the bottom of a pit. Try to get over the edge first, and your chances become much better.

[term1nally s1ck]

Why do you want a relationship? To feel important? To feel happy?

I'd worry more about the 'hating yourself' thing stopping you doing that, to be honest. You can feel happy and fulfilled without a relationship, you can't really get to that stage while despising your own existence.

[Stardrake]

How is caring about how other people feel and wanting to do something about it a sign of not being interested?

...I can feel myself getting defensive about this, and I apologise. There's no reason for me to be, sorry.

This may feel like a random question, but... How good are you at light flirtation? I'm not talking about trying to flirt your way into a relationship or giving someone the impression that you are, but just having a bit of fun with people of the opposite sex that acknowledges that you are of compatible sexuality and maybe, just maybe, something might happen?

The reason I ask is that there is nothing about being a good person that makes someone unattractive - in fact, testimony from someone whom I trust implicitly in such matters says the opposite. There's something else about you that's leading you to be viewed as romantically uninteresting - your concern for your crush is just giving her the opportunity to rub it in that she doesn't see you that way. I may be jumping to conclusions here, but you sound like someone who's very proper in your interactions with women. While there's nothing inherently wrong with that, if you're regarding anything vaguely risque as something that should be kept within the relationship, then women have no reason to think you're going to be exciting within the relationship either.

And, as implied above... it's possible that it might help you to move into an actual relationship that will help you put down that torch. My own successes have had a couple of things in common: first, that they started as light, casual flirtation that escalated progressively until they became an actual relationship, and second, that they caught me by surprise because they weren't the women that had caught my proverbial eye initially. (And it's possible that the two are interrelated - because I wasn't initially viewing them as the one I wanted to be with, I was more relaxed and able to just have fun until it did start to become serious, and then it was just a matter of following the tracks as they were laid down. Further, in each case, it proved that the women I actually ended up with were better matches than those I had an initial attraction for.)

[rogueboy]

This may feel like a random question, but... How good are you at light flirtation? I'm not talking about trying to flirt your way into a relationship or giving someone the impression that you are, but just having a bit of fun with people of the opposite sex that acknowledges that you are of compatible sexuality and maybe, just maybe, something might happen?

Is there any advice people have on getting better at this? Preferably other than "practicing!" Because I'm pretty sure I'm terrible at it. If anything, it's that I often don't treat people differently based on gender, at least in terms of how I interact with them - if we have common interests, we'll get along well. I'll tease friends, but it usually doesn't feel like flirting (at any level), since I do so to both male and female friends equally.

There's also the fact that I'm terrible at noticing when other people are doing something that might be flirting with me, just because I'm terrible at reading people's emotions/intent, unless I know them VERY well (like, multiple years of hanging out almost constantly).

[bhtooefr]

I'll second the request for info on learning how to flirt.

I can USUALLY tell when I'm being flirted with, but don't really know how to respond. And, again, there's that whole creepy line thing, and I HAVE crossed it in my lame attempts at flirting before.

[Heliomance]

I'm not bad at flirting, actually. When I first met this girl we flirted outrageously for a couple of weeks before she did some soul-searching for various (entirely valid) reasons, and realised that she didn't feel that way about me.

[H Birchgrove]

Only in the good ways. *squeezes wild rumpus*

Squeeee!

You *can* fault me for it if you choose, I won't hold it against you.

*shrugs* If you say so. :-)