Relationship Woes and Advice 21: Time To Go Bar-Hopping

[Astrella]

I'm not contesting that. A typical life is for typical people.

Except there is no "typical" life; only a certain lifetrack that society pushes and shames and stomps everyone into the ground who doesn't.

[Grinner]

Except there is no "typical" life; only a certain lifetrack that society pushes and shames and stomps everyone into the ground who doesn't.

Sounds pretty typical to me.

[DeadManSleeping]

What I do know is that I'd love to find a relationship where I can care for a woman more then I care for myself and know that she does the same, but in reality I have no reason to do so because women like the way I handle things right now.

The only reason you or anyone will ever have to find a loving relationship is because you want to have a loving relationship. Love does not exist for sex. Love does not exist for conversation. Love does not even exist for attention.
Love exists. You love for love's sake.

Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.

No, it's NOT another story. Having a low or nonexistent libido does not change your entire brain. Don't blame your inability to find love on your penis, or on anyone else's genitals, for that matter. The reason you're not finding it is because you're avoiding it, not because it doesn't exist.

So, basically, stop blaming the world for yourself, I guess.

[Serpentine]

In this case, every time you go with Mr. Fun over Mr. Nice, you are saying just that. And you know what? I don't blame you.

They're not mutually exclusive. I've had lots of fun with guys who are also really nice. If I knew in advance that someone I was thinking of having fun with was not nice, I would not be having fun with them.

Just remember that when you get older and older, the clock will start ticking louder and louder until you hit menopause, and you'll need a Mr. Reliable. Chances are, that's not going to be Mr. Fun.

Completely irrelevant, and frankly a little insulting that you'd bring it into the equation I have absolutely no intention of basing my life and leisure decisions now on the fact that in 30 years time my ovaries are going to dry up. I am not my fertility.

I agree that Mr. Reliable can also be fun (and should be!). It just takes time for Mr. Nice to grow into himself, and in that time period, he suffers loneliness dearly. Nice Guys, despite their patience, are people too.

Frankly, that's not my problem. In five years, "Mr Nice" will be the sort of guy I'll want to be with forever? Sweet. While he's growing into that, I'll be over here having fun with Mr. Fun (\・・)σ When he's that person, I'll have gotten all that stuff out of my system, and I'll be ready for him.
That my priorities and desires are different to those of some poor perfect-but-neglected "Mr. Nice" does not mean that I need to change mine to fit his. It just means they're different - and possibly, at least for the time being, render us incompatible.

In other words: If I am in a point in my life when I am only or primarily interested in having casual sexual relationships, that is absolutely not a reflection on anyone else. Only on my own state of mind. I'm not going to decide not to do that just because it hurts someone else's feelings - I just won't do it with them, if I'm aware of that (sadly, experience has lead me to believe I am incapable of being so :/). If I guy takes "I'm going to hook up with a different guy every other week until I've finished having fun, and then I'll go find and marry some boring but nice and hopefully moderately-well-off guy and I'll never have fun again" from "I'm interested in having some casual flings until I find an exceptionally, incredibly ideal person to get into a real relationship with", then frankly the problem's with the guy.

[Coidzor]

1) Mostly because I'm clearly dominant in a relatioship, I never worry about her feelings and I don't even pretend to be commited to the relationship, nor I pretend to love her or considering her above my own interests. Lastly, if my passion for her fades or she starts creating too many problems I usually just leave her without much of a thought. Basically we are both using eachoter for our own pleasure and amusement and I make no effort to conceal it from her or from myself.
Am I honest? Sure. But this attitude tends to qualify me as a jerk in the eyes of a lot of people.

The fact that you can't own up to it yourself is rather bad. That's pretty much the definition of a callous jerk that you're giving of yourself.

Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.

Well, yeah, I suppose people in their 80s... maybe.

That's actually the biggest problem with old people, they just won't stop as a group even though it's really creepy for the rest of us.

[bluewind95]

This one is one I'll reply to bit by bit.

1) Mostly because I'm clearly dominant in a relatioship,

OK, see. There's not too much of a problem here. Some people are dominant, others aren't. I'm not a dominant person, and I don't think that's wrong.

I never worry about her feelings

... And you complain you can't find love? Here's a problem. Love IS caring about the other person's feelings (among other things). You can't blame your lack of love on love itself. If you don't care about someone's feelings, you don't love them. If you did, then you would (amazingly enough!) most likely love them. It's not that love doesn't exist. It's that you're not feeling it.

and I don't even pretend to be commited to the relationship,

Fair enough, I guess. Some people do not really want commitment. Not something I'd personally go for, but to each their own.

nor I pretend to love her

See. Ideally? You wouldn't have to *pretend*.

or considering her above my own interests.

For a relationship to really work, I think she should at *least* be equal to at least some of your interests. Though ideally, yeah, she should be pretty much top priority. The way you phrase this, it seems like you see her *below* your interests. Which frankly, disgusts me.

Lastly, if my passion for her fades or she starts creating too many problems I usually just leave her without much of a thought.

Which is... avery callous thing. But if you have such low opinion of your partners (you don't CARE about them, you don't even see them as priorities), well. Unsurprising.

Basically we are both using eachoter for our own pleasure and amusement and I make no effort to conceal it from her or from myself.

If this is about the *only* thing for you... then it's no wonder you have not found love. I daresay there's a chance not all those "happy" women were really happy... they might have been, as has been said before, hoping you changed, or hoping that it was just a mask and there WAS love beneath that.

Am I honest? Sure. But this attitude tends to qualify me as a jerk in the eyes of a lot of people.

If it looks like one, sounds like one, and even smells like one... it likely is one.

Frankly, I think it is not a difficult assumption to make. You say you don't care about the girls you hook up with. You discard them the instant they're not as pleasurable to be around. You believe all girls like to be treated this way. Hm. Yeah, I can see why people would think that way. I am, frankly, astounded you pass the blame to *other* people *thinking* you're one, rather than wondering if you might *be* one.

2) This is a tougher one to answer... I guess it's the idea of having that one special someone that makes you care for him/her more then yourself.

That's part of it. If you ask me (and despite my asexuality, love is NOT a concept I'm foreign to), I'd say... it is sharing a person's life. The good, the bad, everything. You love a person when you care about them as a whole, when you see a person in all of their virtues and vices and good points and defects and they're all the more glorious because they are that person, whole. It's when you don't see only the good parts, and you still care. When you've been there when they're at their worst, and you still care. Of course they're important to you. Of course they're special. You care. And that caring is what makes them special in your life. Because you care. Love is not pleasure. Love is acceptance.

But I noticed that most girls like a man that can make them feel good while still considering them below his own egotistical interests.

For the short-term... maybe. Not for the long term.

Maybe it's because acting like this makes a man look stronger in the eyes of a woman, I have no idea.

Personally? In my eyes? It makes them seem weaker. An easy target if I want to look for casual sex because they'll give me that. But nothing if not someone I can take that kind of advantage of. Poor sap will think he's taking advantage of *me*, when I'm taking advantage of him.

What I do know is that I'd love to find a relationship where I can care for a woman more then I care for myself and know that she does the same,

Then start caring!

but in reality I have no reason to do so because women like the way I handle things right now.

I feel offended that you'd lump all women into that category. Personally? The instant I realized you're a callous jerk that won't care an iota for my feelings, I'd dump you. And mind you, I'm a passive individual. Maybe the women *you've met* might have *seemed* to like the way you handle things right now. Please don't generalize. Much less in such a condescending manner.

Basically love is a fairytale, one I would really like to be true,

No, it isn't. But the key to love is caring and if you're not doing that... well... obviously you're not living it.

but in reality I know that a relationship works because of what we get from our partner, there is nothing special about it and as soon as you don't get what you want from your partner you have no real reasons to stay with him/her.

No. A relationship works because of what you *share*. Good and bad. All of it. But if all you want is the good stuff... well... yeah, no wonder you don't know love.

There is no such thing as staying togheter because you "love" eachoter. You can lust eachother, sure, you can be captivated by one's personality (and this again brings lust), but there is no deeper reason behind it.

I disagree. Staying together (especially long term!!) is all about love.

If you still have a sex life, would you stay with a girl or men that gives you everything you could ask for, love, care, stability, understanding... But not good sex or the consistent desire to have sex with him/her? I'd say no.
Because then he/she would just be a friend right?

I daresay I would. I want to stay with someone to share their life, not just to bump uglies with them. Thing is... love is akin to frienships. It just so happens that in romance, there's an added layer of intimacies. Frienship and romance are not mutually exclusive.

So love = sex in real life...

In your life, maybe.

Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.

Yeah, like asexuals. Like me. But frankly? It's not another story. It's the same story... with a few differences. You *cannot* generalize. Of course sex is an important part of romance. But it's not *THE* one and only thing. It's a complex, elaborate combination of things, with different priorities for different people. Yuo can't see this in such a simplified, black-and-white way as you are now. It simply isn't that way. It's a complicated web of *everything*, and you're trying to reduce it to one of its components. It doesn't work that way.

At least this is what I get from my own experience, and the experience of others I've been able to observe.

You need to get out more! And observe more types of people! And stop trying to generalize and over-simplify things!

[Triscuitable]

I've been in therapy for well over half a year. Hasn't helped that state at all.

Confidence didn't exactly lead to a better outcome either.

Yes, I am, and unlikely to ever be free of it. And I'm still hurt from the last time I got rejected. It resulted in the girl despising me and having a whole group of mutual friends turn against me. That was "fun".

Having success once in a while sounds nice. I'd much rather know the right answer to every decision than live in a world where I almost always make the worst possible choice.

I already regret every stupid decision I make. If I wasn't such a screw-up, I wouldn't made so many.

Now you're assuming I'll meet even a tiny portion of that 7 billion, and that any of them would want me.

Skeppio, your glaring pessimism and self-hate really isn't making helping you any easier. In fact, it's kind of depressing really. What I believe you need is to have some self-confidence.

And therapy not working? Total bull. You need to understand that half a year of therapy isn't going to do anything but give your therapist time to know who you are. If you dodge it now, you've spent half a year in therapy, and god-knows-how-much-money in it.

If you're truly suicidal, this is not the place to talk about that. It doesn't matter how powerful words are, Skeppio, they can't talk you out of ending your life. What can help you is family, and I don't care if it's face-to-face or over the phone, you talk to them about it.

I want to make this clear: I am not trying to be stern, no matter how my words will come off as. I've lost a friend to this, and it was one of the most painful days of my life. I hardly want to realize that happened again, when there was something I could do about it.

[Kalmageddon]

snip! [Forgive me if I don't cut your post into pieces and adress each one separatly, I don't like doing that, feels artifical.]

About me generalizing: whenever I say something please imagine a little disclaimer on tope that says "every opinion expressed is the result of personal experience and is not meant to be valid for anyone else". Of course I generalize if by my own experience I've seen a consistent trend, I can't mention every single exception whenever I try to explain my pov, right? That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions, just that they are so few in my personal experience that I just skip over them. Because I'm confident enough that people won't base their judgment on mine and instead go out and find their own truth.
No disrespect meant, really.

Now, about me not caring for my girlfriend's feelings... I might have thrown that one in there without thinking much about the meaning of such a statement... What I meant to say was that I don't "worry" about her feelings. I don't own her, obviously, so if she's not feeling good with me she can just leave me whenever she wants, I'd do the same.
That said, I usually care, as in "take good care of" her feelings, if that doesn't mean I have to lie to her or to myself.
Uh... This isn't making much sense, damn you English why aren't you my first language!

Also, all of this refers to my current philosophy when it comes to relationships with girls, I haven't always been like this, obviously. But this is the way I see things right now... And I'm looking for other point of views, such as the one you provided me, which I appreciate, even if you feel "disgust" for my current approach to life.

On a side note... What do you mean when you say you are "asexual"? You mentioned it several times, so I guess it's not too personal to ask about that? If it is nevermind! Or if you feel more comfortable just PM me.
I'd like to understand you better.

[Heliomance]

...blarg.

So, there's this girl I know, L. She's a friend's sister. I met her a few years ago, we chatted a little, added each other on Facebook, and generally contact lapsed. Then some time last year, she popped up on Facebook chat and asked me to name one of her Pokemon. I did so, and we started chatting. We chatted for a while. Then a few days later, we chatted again.

Over the last several months, we've made firm friends over Facebook. We realised that when we first met, we both thought the other very attractive and developed mini crushes, but neither of us had any idea the other was interested, and nothing came of it. She now has a boyfriend.

I went to see her today with her sister C and C's boyfriend, the first time I've seen her in person for ages. We spent the day generally hanging out, chatting, laughing as friends do. It was good fun.

On the way back, I got a text from her. It read "I was very distracted by your butt". And so now I'm horribly conflicted.

I find her a fascinating person, a good friend, and I know she's absolutely fine with my gender issues. If she was single, I would absolutely be interested in a relationship with her. And judging from that text, and the slight flirting that happened today, I'm pretty certain she's interested too. But she's taken, so it's not going to happen.

I repeat, blarg.

[Triscuitable]

I've always wondered, if you like somebody, but find out they're in a relationship, is it morally questionable to wait for the relationship to inevitably implode? This is highschool, after all.

And no, that doesn't pertain to current events. That's what was going through my head after my unfortunate friend-zoning last month.

[Heliomance]

I've always wondered, if you like somebody, but find out they're in a relationship, is it morally questionable to wait for the relationship to inevitably implode? This is highschool, after all.

And no, that doesn't pertain to current events. That's what was going through my head after my unfortunate friend-zoning last month.

As long as you don't work towards making the relationship explode, no. Cynical, yes. Morally questionable, no.

[MonkeyBusiness]

As long as you don't work towards making the relationship explode, no. Cynical, yes. Morally questionable, no.

... maybe not immoral, but certainly not wise. I would not want to date someone who treats her current boyfriend this way. I also would not want to date someone who treated *me* this way. This is something more than simple flirting. Flirting should make both parties feel good and not hurt anyone; but because she is with someone else this does not make you feel good, and is hurtful.

She might be cute, but it's clear she's trying to enjoy the thrill of the chase while also having the security of a relationship while you have neither. It's unfair. I'd steer clear.

[Starwulf]

Basically love is a fairytale, one I would really like to be true, but in reality I know that a relationship works because of what we get from our partner, there is nothing special about it and as soon as you don't get what you want from your partner you have no real reasons to stay with him/her.
There is no such thing as staying togheter because you "love" eachoter. You can lust eachother, sure, you can be captivated by one's personality (and this again brings lust), but there is no deeper reason behind it.
If you still have a sex life, would you stay with a girl or men that gives you everything you could ask for, love, care, stability, understanding... But not good sex or the consistent desire to have sex with him/her? I'd say no.
Because then he/she would just be a friend right?
So love = sex in real life...
Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.
At least this is what I get from my own experience, and the experience of others I've been able to observe.

I'm sure others have responded, but I have to say, WOW, you have a reaaallly skewed view of love. What happened to you to make you so jaded? I LOVE my wife. I don't lust her, I LOVE her. If I wasn't getting sex, if we couldn't have sex, I would still LOVE my wife. I will always LOVE my wife.(Sorry for the constant caps, but I felt the extreme need to stress the word love). I don't believe it's just a chemical reaction, I don't believe it's because of a purely physical relationship.

I guess I already have my answer as to what has caused you to have such a view though, as you clearly state that it is what you have observed in others, but damn, you must not have had a very good life growing up, since I"m assuming you're basically implying that your parents didn't love each other, just lusted each other. My parents on the other hand, Loved each other. They still love each other. They argue and fight like any other older married couple that have been around each other for 30ish years, but it's very obvious to anyone who knows them that they love each other. My Grandparents loved each other as well, quite dearly. Both sets of them actually. A good friend of the family is leaving her husband of 20 years because there was no emotional side to the relationship. Not because there was no sex, but because she wasn't get her emotional needs met. Does that sound like a relationship based on lust? Nah. I was talking to her the other day actually, as she was cutting my hair, and she even stated "I can fulfill my own needs, they make devices for that. But I need someone that is able to love me, and love me emotionally, not physically. Those were her exact words.

So, in the end, I have to say, and I hope you take no offense to this, but I honestly feel kind of sorry for you. To go through life(already lived, and the life you have left) never being able to "love" and fully believing that all relationships are based on physical pleasure, that's pretty awful man. Love is a joy. It's one of life's greatest pleasures, much more so then any physical act. It makes everything you do with your partner that much better as well. Sex without love is...well, boring. Sex with love though...is absolutely fantastic, and it's always great. There is never any let-down from sex when you love your partner(and believe me, sex can be a let-down, or boring, when you don't love your partner).

I truly hope you can eventually change your views, and actually find real love. If not, well, that sucks man :-(.

[Heliomance]

... maybe not immoral, but certainly not wise. I would not want to date someone who treats her current boyfriend this way. I also would not want to date someone who treated *me* this way. This is something more than simple flirting. Flirting should make both parties feel good and not hurt anyone; but because she is with someone else this does not make you feel good, and is hurtful.

She might be cute, but it's clear she's trying to enjoy the thrill of the chase while also having the security of a relationship while you have neither. It's unfair. I'd steer clear.

Firstly, I don't think Triscuitable was talking about my situation - I'm not in High school.

Secondly, I've talked to her now, and I think it was innocent. Her boyfriend is apparently okay with jokey, friendly flirting, and she says she didn't realise that I'd take it as possibly more than that. She's apologised, and I think we're good.

EDIT: And we've struck a deal that if we ever happen to be single at the same time, we'll give a relationship a try

[Heliomance]

... maybe not immoral, but certainly not wise. I would not want to date someone who treats her current boyfriend this way. I also would not want to date someone who treated *me* this way. This is something more than simple flirting. Flirting should make both parties feel good and not hurt anyone; but because she is with someone else this does not make you feel good, and is hurtful.

She might be cute, but it's clear she's trying to enjoy the thrill of the chase while also having the security of a relationship while you have neither. It's unfair. I'd steer clear.

Firstly, I don't think Triscuitable was talking about my situation - I'm not in High school.

Secondly, I've talked to her now, and I think it was innocent. Her boyfriend is apparently okay with jokey, friendly flirting, and she says she didn't realise that I'd take it as possibly more than that. She's apologised, and I think we're good.

[Grinner]

They're not mutually exclusive. I've had lots of fun with guys who are also really nice. If I knew in advance that someone I was thinking of having fun with was not nice, I would not be having fun with them.

Good on you!

Unfortunately, since I was communicating textually, the subject, being complex by nature, had to be simplified. I chose to eliminate specificity.

Completely irrelevant, and frankly a little insulting that you'd bring it into the equation I have absolutely no intention of basing my life and leisure decisions now on the fact that in 30 years time my ovaries are going to dry up. I am not my fertility.

It's unfair, but not irrelevant. Neuropsychology is never fair.

Frankly, that's not my problem. In five years, "Mr Nice" will be the sort of guy I'll want to be with forever? Sweet. While he's growing into that, I'll be over here having fun with Mr. Fun (\・・)σ When he's that person, I'll have gotten all that stuff out of my system, and I'll be ready for him.
That my priorities and desires are different to those of some poor perfect-but-neglected "Mr. Nice" does not mean that I need to change mine to fit his. It just means they're different - and possibly, at least for the time being, render us incompatible.

In other words: If I am in a point in my life when I am only or primarily interested in having casual sexual relationships, that is absolutely not a reflection on anyone else. Only on my own state of mind. I'm not going to decide not to do that just because it hurts someone else's feelings - I just won't do it with them, if I'm aware of that (sadly, experience has lead me to believe I am incapable of being so :/). If I guy takes "I'm going to hook up with a different guy every other week until I've finished having fun, and then I'll go find and marry some boring but nice and hopefully moderately-well-off guy and I'll never have fun again" from "I'm interested in having some casual flings until I find an exceptionally, incredibly ideal person to get into a real relationship with", then frankly the problem's with the guy.

In this case, every time you go with Mr. Fun over Mr. Nice, you are saying just that. And you know what? I don't blame you. The mindset of the archetypal Nice Guy does not lend itself well to youthful indiscretion, and expecting you to suffer through that is unfair to you.

[Kalmageddon]

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I'm sure others have responded, but I have to say, WOW, you have a reaaallly skewed view of love. What happened to you to make you so jaded? I LOVE my wife. I don't lust her, I LOVE her. If I wasn't getting sex, if we couldn't have sex, I would still LOVE my wife. I will always LOVE my wife.(Sorry for the constant caps, but I felt the extreme need to stress the word love). I don't believe it's just a chemical reaction, I don't believe it's because of a purely physical relationship.

I guess I already have my answer as to what has caused you to have such a view though, as you clearly state that it is what you have observed in others, but damn, you must not have had a very good life growing up, since I"m assuming you're basically implying that your parents didn't love each other, just lusted each other. My parents on the other hand, Loved each other. They still love each other. They argue and fight like any other older married couple that have been around each other for 30ish years, but it's very obvious to anyone who knows them that they love each other. My Grandparents loved each other as well, quite dearly. Both sets of them actually. A good friend of the family is leaving her husband of 20 years because there was no emotional side to the relationship. Not because there was no sex, but because she wasn't get her emotional needs met. Does that sound like a relationship based on lust? Nah. I was talking to her the other day actually, as she was cutting my hair, and she even stated "I can fulfill my own needs, they make devices for that. But I need someone that is able to love me, and love me emotionally, not physically. Those were her exact words.

So, in the end, I have to say, and I hope you take no offense to this, but I honestly feel kind of sorry for you. To go through life(already lived, and the life you have left) never being able to "love" and fully believing that all relationships are based on physical pleasure, that's pretty awful man. Love is a joy. It's one of life's greatest pleasures, much more so then any physical act. It makes everything you do with your partner that much better as well. Sex without love is...well, boring. Sex with love though...is absolutely fantastic, and it's always great. There is never any let-down from sex when you love your partner(and believe me, sex can be a let-down, or boring, when you don't love your partner).

I truly hope you can eventually change your views, and actually find real love. If not, well, that sucks man :-(.

That was actually quite inspiring. Beautiful, really. I can sense how much you believe in your words and that's a rare thing.

Now, forgive me if I don't talk about my past or go into details of my personal experiences, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that in a forum, I'm sure you can understand.

But I'm afraid that I still can't believe love actually exist. I think I've felt it a couple of times, but not for long and it never had the power to accomplish anything in the end.
I don't know... I got nothing left to reply.
But thanks man.

[Coidzor]

Then it sounds like you're failing to recognize that not everyone is like you.

[Grinner]

But I'm afraid that I still can't believe love actually exist. I think I've felt it a couple of times, but not for long and it never had the power to accomplish anything in the end.

Defining it is the tricky part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

[Kalmageddon]

Defining it is the tricky part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

OHFORF...!
Now I have to worry about FOUR different kinds of love?
Well, thank you, thank you very much!

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(I jest... )

[Grinner]

OHFORF...!
Now I have to worry about FOUR different kinds of love?
Well, thank you, thank you very much!

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(I jest... )

Nah, you were always worrying about them, but now you recognize them as separate concepts.

[DeadManSleeping]

If you don't believe love can exist, then please explain to me the existence of asexuals who are in romantic relationships.

And don't say "insanity". It's the same thing in the end

[bluewind95]

About me generalizing: whenever I say something please imagine a little disclaimer on tope that says "every opinion expressed is the result of personal experience and is not meant to be valid for anyone else". Of course I generalize if by my own experience I've seen a consistent trend, I can't mention every single exception whenever I try to explain my pov, right? That doesn't mean that there are no exceptions, just that they are so few in my personal experience that I just skip over them. Because I'm confident enough that people won't base their judgment on mine and instead go out and find their own truth.
No disrespect meant, really.

I still think you should avoid generalizing and instead open yourself to other possibilities.

Now, about me not caring for my girlfriend's feelings... I might have thrown that one in there without thinking much about the meaning of such a statement... What I meant to say was that I don't "worry" about her feelings. I don't own her, obviously, so if she's not feeling good with me she can just leave me whenever she wants, I'd do the same.
That said, I usually care, as in "take good care of" her feelings, if that doesn't mean I have to lie to her or to myself.
Uh... This isn't making much sense, damn you English why aren't you my first language!

Yes. She can leave you if she's unhappy. You can also ask why she's unhappy. And learn.

Also, all of this refers to my current philosophy when it comes to relationships with girls, I haven't always been like this, obviously. But this is the way I see things right now... And I'm looking for other point of views, such as the one you provided me, which I appreciate, even if you feel "disgust" for my current approach to life.

I think you need to change your approach to change how these things turn out for you. Also, I ought to clarify. I feel disgust for certain aspects of your approach, not to the whole of you and your approach. I only know very little of your approach, after all.

On a side note... What do you mean when you say you are "asexual"? You mentioned it several times, so I guess it's not too personal to ask about that? If it is nevermind! Or if you feel more comfortable just PM me.
I'd like to understand you better.

Asexuality comes in several ways. In my case, I just don't feel physical attraction.

[Glass Mouse]

Kalmageddon:

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This will probably come off a little rambly and not very useful, but eh... Maybe there's something in there somewhere that you can use.

1) Mostly because I'm clearly dominant in a relatioship, I never worry about her feelings and I don't even pretend to be commited to the relationship, nor I pretend to love her or considering her above my own interests. Lastly, if my passion for her fades or she starts creating too many problems I usually just leave her without much of a thought. Basically we are both using eachoter for our own pleasure and amusement and I make no effort to conceal it from her or from myself.
Am I honest? Sure. But this attitude tends to qualify me as a jerk in the eyes of a lot of people.

First, thanks for answering

I still wouldn't call that jerk-like behavior. Possibly immature, or jaded, or emotionally dangerous... but not a jerk. But that's me, and there's apparantly a lot of people disagreeing.

You do need to make it clear to yourself if you're okay with this behavior and lifestyle. Reading your posts, I'm not entirely sure if you actually want love, or if you want/need to feel jaded and unpressured for a while.
Maybe you want to want to love?

But consider the possibility that you may need to do this for a while (and do it as honestly and non-jerkish as possible) until you find a girl who sweeps you off your feet, and/or you grow ready for that kind of relationship.

Not saying that needs to be the conclusion, at all. Just be completely honest with yourself about what you want in love/sex, and what you can accept from yourself.

2) This is a tougher one to answer... I guess it's the idea of having that one special someone that makes you care for him/her more then yourself. But I noticed that most girls like a man that can make them feel good while still considering them below his own egotistical interests. Maybe it's because acting like this makes a man look stronger in the eyes of a woman, I have no idea.

What I do know is that I'd love to find a relationship where I can care for a woman more then I care for myself and know that she does the same, but in reality I have no reason to do so because women like the way I handle things right now.

So "romanticism" pretty much translates to "the feeling of love". This is different from your initial posts, which had to do with actions.

In your view (and I'm tempted to agree with you), actions have nothing to do with romanticism. You mention that you used to be nice, and maybe I've just seen too many Nice Guys(tm), but allow me a break-down:

You used to do nice things to girls, because you felt like you cared about them. These feelings may have been genuine, they may have been for lack of better options, they may have been infatuation. That doesn't really matter.
Point is that you used to do nice things. And girls didn't respond to you as well as they do now.

Every girl (except the screwed-up ones, but let's leave them out for now) will tell you that she wants someone nice (or, rather, kind). Someone who cares and does nice things and all that jazz.
But something that some guys - and especially Nice Guys(tm) - fail to consider is that nice actions aren't enough to pique most people's interests. Nice actions from a friend are, well, nice. Nice actions from an S.O. are heart-warming. Nice actions from a stranger are either a pleasant surprise, or creepy. Too many nice actions in any case are just creepy.
Point being, nice actions don't a ladykiller make.

Again, hypothesis, but it sounds like you've gone through some development that's not only related to your love life. If you've grown into your own - whoever that person is - you will be much more interesting to everyone, simply because of that. People like people who are something, people who are confident, people who are passionate, etc.
Plus, there's some allure to the hard-to-gets, and people have already touched on the "you get what you attract" issue. But the point still stands that some traits are generally more attractive (disclaimer: exceptions and stuff).

I have no idea what you used to do before. But I'm almost 100% sure that something else has happened since then, other than you growing jaded towards love. Even if that "something" is just a spike in confidence, or an appearance thereof (both could be a secondary effect of not caring, actually).
I just don't buy that everyone around you has grown shallow overnight.


Also. What were those feelings of love before? Did you have any long-term girlfriends? Why did you do the nice things you did?
Especially, what were those feelings of love? Because if you're seriously doubting the existence of love, it sounds like you may never have felt anything stronger than infatuation.
Without knowing, it sounds to me like nothing may have really changed. Except maybe exchanging ideals for cynisism?


I will also second bluewind (I think) in that you can't expect to go out there and say, "I don't want to love you!", and then expect the woman to fall in love and do the work of romanticism.
I mean, just... huh?
But I think you've understood this point already.

Basically love is a fairytale, one I would really like to be true, but in reality I know that a relationship works because of what we get from our partner, there is nothing special about it and as soon as you don't get what you want from your partner you have no real reasons to stay with him/her.
There is no such thing as staying togheter because you "love" eachoter. You can lust eachother, sure, you can be captivated by one's personality (and this again brings lust), but there is no deeper reason behind it.
If you still have a sex life, would you stay with a girl or men that gives you everything you could ask for, love, care, stability, understanding... But not good sex or the consistent desire to have sex with him/her? I'd say no.
Because then he/she would just be a friend right?
So love = sex in real life...
Then of course you get people too old to care for sex, or people that never cared for sex anyway, but that's another story.
At least this is what I get from my own experience, and the experience of others I've been able to observe.

I've been with my boyfriend for seven years. And I can say with absolute confidence that I love him.
I remember the trill, the sex, the euphoria, from the "honeymoon period", and it was great, but it was entirely different from now. We have much less sex, we spend more time together, we have occasional fights, all the things you hear about long-term couples.
And still. It's hard to explain, but it's like... I can be happy without him, I have plenty of life and friends outside of him, but if he were to leave my life, there'd be this hole left. The thought of not being able to get a hug, or hearing his laughter, or watching him geek out over a silly indie game, or arguing about the proper amount of spices in food... I dunno, it just doesn't fit into me, my emotions, and my worldview. It seems so wrong.
I want to see him happy, and I'm definitely willing to sacrifice to see that happen (incidentally, the past two months have been hell because he had to work 24/7 on his portfolio, stressing us both out - but he needed the support). And I know he'd do the same for me in a heartbeat.

I don't believe in "power of love" (whatever that is), and Valentine's makes me cringe. But what I'm feeling for my boyfriend is most decidedly love. And it's very different from the love I feel for friends and family.

And if you'll excuse me, I now have to go scrub my hands and eyes for polluting the internet with such sappy crap.

The stuff I do for internet strangers.....

I've always wondered, if you like somebody, but find out they're in a relationship, is it morally questionable to wait for the relationship to inevitably implode? This is highschool, after all.

Not immoral (as long as you don't actively work to further its downfall), but generally unwise. You don't know how long they're gonna stay together, and worst case, you spend all of high school (and maybe much later) pining for someone who never gets available.

It's just not worth the risk.

Asexuality comes in several ways. In my case, I just don't feel physical attraction.

Link for the curious

[rogueboy]

Defining it is the tricky part: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_words_for_love

See, this is why I feel like English fails. The complete lack of distinction between the differing forms of love, combined with a societal assumption of love only (or at least primarily) being romantic, makes it really hard to actually express feelings for someone who's simply a very, very good friend (another word that doesn't have enough nuance to do many relationships justice). Especially when the non-romantic love is between a guy and girl (since people tend to assume heterosexuality unless shown/told otherwise).

But that's just a random language quibble. Wasn't just your post that made me think of it Scotch, but the entire conversation over the last day or so.

[Coidzor]

See, this is why I feel like English fails. The complete lack of distinction between the differing forms of love.

We may not have different words, but we can bloody well distinguish between the different forms of love. The problem is when the context isn't clear then things default to romantic.

Since most people don't assume one has an unhealthy desire towards one's kid when one says that one loves them, and vice versa.

[Kalmageddon]

Yes. She can leave you if she's unhappy. You can also ask why she's unhappy. And learn.

Why would I ask? If I can't figure it out on my own (and I usually can) it's simply not meant to be. Long, tedious conversations about eachoter feelings make everything feel so forced. Plus, I'm not going to change for her, so if she has a problem with me it's best we part ways.

I think you need to change your approach to change how these things turn out for you. Also, I ought to clarify. I feel disgust for certain aspects of your approach, not to the whole of you and your approach. I only know very little of your approach, after all.

Ah well, a little disgust is better then a full set of it I suppose!

Asexuality comes in several ways. In my case, I just don't feel physical attraction.

Don't you think that our mentality is too different to undertand eachoter's issues then? Unless by "physical attraction" you mean that you just don't care how someone looks but you feel sex drive as everyone else, only beacuse of other factors, but that's not how I interpreted it (of course I may be wrong).

Kalmageddon:

Spoiler

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This will probably come off a little rambly and not very useful, but eh... Maybe there's something in there somewhere that you can use.



First, thanks for answering

I still wouldn't call that jerk-like behavior. Possibly immature, or jaded, or emotionally dangerous... but not a jerk. But that's me, and there's apparantly a lot of people disagreeing.

You do need to make it clear to yourself if you're okay with this behavior and lifestyle. Reading your posts, I'm not entirely sure if you actually want love, or if you want/need to feel jaded and unpressured for a while.
Maybe you want to want to love?

But consider the possibility that you may need to do this for a while (and do it as honestly and non-jerkish as possible) until you find a girl who sweeps you off your feet, and/or you grow ready for that kind of relationship.

Not saying that needs to be the conclusion, at all. Just be completely honest with yourself about what you want in love/sex, and what you can accept from yourself.



So "romanticism" pretty much translates to "the feeling of love". This is different from your initial posts, which had to do with actions.

In your view (and I'm tempted to agree with you), actions have nothing to do with romanticism. You mention that you used to be nice, and maybe I've just seen too many Nice Guys(tm), but allow me a break-down:

You used to do nice things to girls, because you felt like you cared about them. These feelings may have been genuine, they may have been for lack of better options, they may have been infatuation. That doesn't really matter.
Point is that you used to do nice things. And girls didn't respond to you as well as they do now.

Every girl (except the screwed-up ones, but let's leave them out for now) will tell you that she wants someone nice (or, rather, kind). Someone who cares and does nice things and all that jazz.
But something that some guys - and especially Nice Guys(tm) - fail to consider is that nice actions aren't enough to pique most people's interests. Nice actions from a friend are, well, nice. Nice actions from an S.O. are heart-warming. Nice actions from a stranger are either a pleasant surprise, or creepy. Too many nice actions in any case are just creepy.
Point being, nice actions don't a ladykiller make.

Again, hypothesis, but it sounds like you've gone through some development that's not only related to your love life. If you've grown into your own - whoever that person is - you will be much more interesting to everyone, simply because of that. People like people who are something, people who are confident, people who are passionate, etc.
Plus, there's some allure to the hard-to-gets, and people have already touched on the "you get what you attract" issue. But the point still stands that some traits are generally more attractive (disclaimer: exceptions and stuff).

I have no idea what you used to do before. But I'm almost 100% sure that something else has happened since then, other than you growing jaded towards love. Even if that "something" is just a spike in confidence, or an appearance thereof (both could be a secondary effect of not caring, actually).
I just don't buy that everyone around you has grown shallow overnight.


Also. What were those feelings of love before? Did you have any long-term girlfriends? Why did you do the nice things you did?
Especially, what were those feelings of love? Because if you're seriously doubting the existence of love, it sounds like you may never have felt anything stronger than infatuation.
Without knowing, it sounds to me like nothing may have really changed. Except maybe exchanging ideals for cynisism?


I will also second bluewind (I think) in that you can't expect to go out there and say, "I don't want to love you!", and then expect the woman to fall in love and do the work of romanticism.
I mean, just... huh?
But I think you've understood this point already.



I've been with my boyfriend for seven years. And I can say with absolute confidence that I love him.
I remember the trill, the sex, the euphoria, from the "honeymoon period", and it was great, but it was entirely different from now. We have much less sex, we spend more time together, we have occasional fights, all the things you hear about long-term couples.
And still. It's hard to explain, but it's like... I can be happy without him, I have plenty of life and friends outside of him, but if he were to leave my life, there'd be this hole left. The thought of not being able to get a hug, or hearing his laughter, or watching him geek out over a silly indie game, or arguing about the proper amount of spices in food... I dunno, it just doesn't fit into me, my emotions, and my worldview. It seems so wrong.
I want to see him happy, and I'm definitely willing to sacrifice to see that happen (incidentally, the past two months have been hell because he had to work 24/7 on his portfolio, stressing us both out - but he needed the support). And I know he'd do the same for me in a heartbeat.

I don't believe in "power of love" (whatever that is), and Valentine's makes me cringe. But what I'm feeling for my boyfriend is most decidedly love. And it's very different from the love I feel for friends and family.

And if you'll excuse me, I now have to go scrub my hands and eyes for polluting the internet with such sappy crap.

The stuff I do for internet strangers.....

Spoiler

Show

No, thank YOU for answering!
That's about the most helpful answer I recieved in this thread.
I don't really know what to answer however... Some things you say about me I think are true, others not so much.
Like, for exemple... I've never been the nice but creepy guy who does nice things to girls he's never met (ok I was, but I was like... 14? I learned quickly), since I'm an adult I've always been reserving all my "niceness" to girls I'm already in a relationship with.
What may be important to understand my position is that I've never, ever had a story with a girl that took more then a few days to go full spin.
I've never had to see them as a friend first, getting to know them while with other people, then carefully ask them out... No, when I'm interested in a girl that usually results in me and her togheter right away. I've literally seen some girls go crazy with confusion and excitement, telling me that they loved me like the day after we met, to the point where I found them kind of creepy.
So really, I've never been the one "rushing" things, or at least I wasn't alone on that.
Anyway, I used to "ride the wave" and "go crazy" myself with them, that resulted in some very passionate stories where two months later we would be thinking about living togherer.
Then, just as you would expect, things went the wrong way, some things turned out to be too diffiult to handle, some differences too big.
I guess now I'm doing the opposite, I'm keeping them at bay and it works a lot better for me, but it hasn't done much in the way of getting me long term relationships and I still remember how happy I felt when I gave myself entirely, but at the same time I remember how much painful it was when things ended, even if I was the one pulling the plug.

See, now I'm thinking more focused and turns out I just need to find some kind of middle ground, which is easier said then done. Wow, I'm kind of screwed up.

Did I say thank you? Because I mean it.
This is the part where I awkwardly realize you are a complete stranger and I can't to squat for you... So... Internet hug? Maybe? I'm not very used to these kind of interactions.

[Serpentine]

Good on you!

Unfortunately, since I was communicating textually, the subject, being complex by nature, had to be simplified. I chose to eliminate specificity.



It's unfair, but not irrelevant. Neuropsychology is never fair.

That teeny little disclaimer that won't quote here negates my impression of your post nor the substance of mine not a jot.

[dehro]

Why would I ask? If I can't figure it out on my own (and I usually can) it's simply not meant to be. Long, tedious conversations about eachoter feelings make everything feel so forced. Plus, I'm not going to change for her, so if she has a problem with me it's best we part ways.

aaand, I'm done with this.
you're basically trolling your own life and acting surprised about the results.
have a good day

[Kalmageddon]

aaand, I'm done with this.
you're basically trolling your own life and acting surprised about the results.
have a good day

When did you even started?
Anyway, good day to you!