Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII

[Gotterdammerung]

Yikes. I'd recommend scrubbing that post; I know you're just trying to learn for future rounds, but it came across a mite bitter and defensive. Perhaps that conversation is better had via PM.

In other news, the new round has been posted. The SI isn't Acolyte of the Skin or Bloodhound. No, no, it's a bit harri--er, hairier than that.

I am not bitter. There is nothing to be bitter about. I took third in my first contest and second in my second contest. I am happy with those accomplishments.

As far as defensive, I can't find the answers if I don't ask the questions.

It might be better as a PM but it's easier to just talk about it here with everyone than try to hold several conversations in PM. It is technically a dead thread now anyway, so I don't see the harm.

I am not trying to start a fight, or piss anyone off. I just wanted to talk about some stuff that bugged me or confused me so that I can learn to better perform in future rounds.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly... major props to anyone who even entered the contest. That you could do ANYTHING at all with this ingredient is amazing. This from the guy who made use out of CW Samurai, and couldn't figure out how to do anything useful with this.

Again, mad props to ALL contestants. You are a better man than I, Gunga Din.

[Gotterdammerung]

quick question. I know if you have 3.0 content that was nver updated or reprinted then it is allowed. But does that include the builder books like tome and blood, sword and fist, ect. I mean can you use the lasher prestige class, for example, since it was never updated or reprinted?

[Rizban]

I'll start by saying that I didn't find this post bitter or angry. It came across as genuinely questioning for understanding. As such, I personally have no qualms answering the questions in it.

---

1

My homegame has houseruled the removal of the prerequisites for improved grapple. I have been playing under these rules for like 6 years or so. So that's why I forgot about the odd dex and improved unarmed strike prerequs. It was a mistake and I am fine with the consequences. I just wanted to explain why it happened.

Happens. I do that all the time and have to double check my builds repeatedly.

Also, I think the judges shoehorned him into being "just a grappler". Grappling was intended to just be something he could do. Improved grapple wasn't that important to the build. I took Jotunbrud for the story. It gave him grappling potential. So I considered adding things that synergized with grappling. But I made sure to spend character resources on his melee potential and gave real focus to his defenses. I ran several matches of him versus the other contestants and it was always his defenses that caused him to beat all other contestants. If he truly was "just a grappler" he would not of been able to beat all the other entries, including my own other entry Bjorn who got some of the highest power scores.

I didn't see him as just a grappler, but that is definitely his main schtick for offense. He does have good defenses, but he is pretty limited where that doesn't work or is inappropriate. I gave you quite a few points for your build's power, only penalizing you for not really having many options other than defense and grappling. If the enemy flies (or has freedom of movement), your guy is useless beyond glacial ray/bolt of cold. Coldwalk helps with flight, but it's pretty limited and eats through your PP.

You say he beat all the other entries? I ask how he would be Calipso who can just fly out of reach and can move faster than Coldwalk? How about the Antipode who can make trip attacks at 30+ feet?

I did see his other options, but I didn't feel like they were really significant when compared to his grappling.

I was also surprised at the low use of SI scores on Wulfgrad. I spent a lot of time figuring out how to work in every ability of the SI into the tactics, mechanics, and/or background story of the character. Then spent more time listing it out so the judges could easily read it. Then was told I didn't use the SI at all. In some cases, Wulfgrad actually scored the same SI score as Bjorn, who only used 5 lvls of the SI and only had roleplay justification for the SI. I apparently didn't and still don't understand what the judges wanted from this category. But it seemed to me like the general hate of the SI bled over into the scoring of this category.

This one I feel explained this one well enough in my original critique. Beyond a two level dip, CK seems superfluous to your build and doesn't synergize well with the rest of your setup.

It was a little weird to get docked points in originality for "Old Man Winter." This phrase had no actual ties to the russian folklore. The contestants name was Wulfgrad King of Bones. The people of Icewind Dale allowed rumors and superstition to elevate him into legend. I don't really see how this dynamic is "unoriginal".

In the future, it would be nice if judges would list out there hang-ups. It would be nice to know before hand that all humans are unoriginal and all characters in Forgotten Realms are unoriginal.

I did not dock points for human. I consider it to be the base line default and score it neutrally. In fact, the only time I would dock points for race is if you go with a particular race that has featured prominently in a similar build elsewhere or pick a race just for the numbers with no story to back it up. I only give points if the race selection catches me off guard or is particularly interesting to the story.

Honestly, I didn't relate him to Russian folklore specifically. I just meant that I expected the generic "evil winter demigod" archetype and didn't see it as particularly original.

I don't have anything specific against Forgotten Realms, but I think that it shows more originality if you create a character in your own world rather than that of someone else, especially when you pick the stereotypical wintry race and feat from that world. I docked you less than a quarter point for it though, because I did like the way you actually used the setting and worked it into your character rather than just dropping it in as an undeveloped background. I just don't think FR is particularly original...

I'm new to this contest, and I am mainly making writing this out of an effort to learn. There were some things about this round that I just didn't understand. They bugged me a lot. If my comments are stepping over a line, I am sorry, it was not my intent to criticize. I just want to better understand the process so I can compete more effectively in the coming rounds.

I'm new to it too. I skimmed one contest a long time ago for which I wanted to submit, but they were already judging by the time I saw it. I haven't read any of them since.

I hope I've answered your questions about my judging.

[Venger]

quick question. I know if you have 3.0 content that was nver updated or reprinted then it is allowed. But does that include the builder books like tome and blood, sword and fist, ect. I mean can you use the lasher prestige class, for example, since it was never updated or reprinted?

Yes. if a class was updated, you must use the most up to date version (ex. bloodhound) even if it changed drastically (ex. exotic weapons master) but if it was never updated, 3.0 is the most current version, so lasher is fine.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'll start by saying that I didn't find this post bitter or angry. It came across as genuinely questioning for understanding. As such, I personally have no qualms answering the questions in it.

---

1Happens. I do that all the time and have to double check my builds repeatedly.

I didn't see him as just a grappler, but that is definitely his main schtick for offense. He does have good defenses, but he is pretty limited where that doesn't work or is inappropriate. I gave you quite a few points for your build's power, only penalizing you for not really having many options other than defense and grappling. If the enemy flies (or has freedom of movement), your guy is useless beyond glacial ray/bolt of cold. Coldwalk helps with flight, but it's pretty limited and eats through your PP.

You say he beat all the other entries? I ask how he would be Calipso who can just fly out of reach and can move faster than Coldwalk? How about the Antipode who can make trip attacks at 30+ feet?

I did see his other options, but I didn't feel like they were really significant when compared to his grappling.

This one I feel explained this one well enough in my original critique. Beyond a two level dip, CK seems superfluous to your build and doesn't synergize well with the rest of your setup.

I did not dock points for human. I consider it to be the base line default and score it neutrally. In fact, the only time I would dock points for race is if you go with a particular race that has featured prominently in a similar build elsewhere or pick a race just for the numbers with no story to back it up. I only give points if the race selection catches me off guard or is particularly interesting to the story.

Honestly, I didn't relate him to Russian folklore specifically. I just meant that I expected the generic "evil winter demigod" archetype and didn't see it as particularly original.

I don't have anything specific against Forgotten Realms, but I think that it shows more originality if you create a character in your own world rather than that of someone else, especially when you pick the stereotypical wintry race and feat from that world. I docked you less than a quarter point for it though, because I did like the way you actually used the setting and worked it into your character rather than just dropping it in as an undeveloped background. I just don't think FR is particularly original...

I'm new to it too. I skimmed one contest a long time ago for which I wanted to submit, but they were already judging by the time I saw it. I haven't read any of them since.

I hope I've answered your questions about my judging.

I am glad you took it the right way. And thank you for your answers. Some of them will help. I've learned I need to be more evenly descriptive in my entries. I typically only explained the more complex parts of the builds I submitted. And that seemed to lead to the judges focusing on the parts I explained. I took for granted that the judges would run the mundane numbers like projected to hit and damage for melee, and projected AC for defense. I felt like Wulfgrad's power was focused with defense as his main schtick and regular melee and grapple were even to me. But if I had taken the time to write out projected melee damage it would of done a better job of relaying that information to the judges.

Ive also learned that great investment in a background story is not as important to the final score as I had originally thought. It usually only garnishes a point at the most. It definitely endears people to the build. And having absolute zero background can hurt. But ultimately, I now know I can crap out a simple background story and save some time. Before I was spending hours composing elements of the story, then hours troubleshooting the storyboard, then hours writing and editing the actual story. I can cut that all down to a single hour worth of work and save a whole lot of time without much effect on my final score.

To answer your question regarding calipso, In the matches where I started calipso a very large distance away from Wulfgrad, her negligible damage allowed him a large amount of time to retreat to a cave. At this point, the match reached a stalemate of sorts. Calipso would die if she followed him and the match would end if she left. In the same scenario, when I gave Wulfgrad a sling, a simple ranged weapon that he likely would have, he was able to easily outdamage her to the point where she fled. In other matches, I started her within 50 to 90 feet above wulfgrad, a reasonable height for a flying character pre-combat. Swift expansion, expend psionic focus for cold walk, then charging grapple ended the combat. In all matches, her level adjustment and low hit points and low damage were a great hindrance to her. And her invisibility was ineffective due to touchsight. Her powers were ineffective due to High PR, and damp power.

To answer your question about Antipode, Wulfgrad has a +21 trip modifier after expansion and a +11 before. Trip is not really a threat to him. With a +5 greatsword he is at +32/+27/+22 4d6+18 damage (2d6 cold if weapon afrost is used which doesn't matter much in these versus matches due to the SI's cold resistance) and has power attack to ramp up the damage. This is significantly more melee power than Antipode can muster. And between the two, Wulfgrad had more hit points.

[Urpriest]

Yes. if a class was updated, you must use the most up to date version (ex. bloodhound) even if it changed drastically (ex. exotic weapons master) but if it was never updated, 3.0 is the most current version, so lasher is fine.

Lasher was updated to Exotic Weapons Master. There's a page on the WotC site that lists these sorts of things, not sure of the address though.

[Venger]

Lasher was updated to Exotic Weapons Master. There's a page on the WotC site that lists these sorts of things, not sure of the address though.

huh? I meant that in masters of the wild, there was a class called exotic weapon (sic) master that was keyed towards making random bits of junk like twigs and rocks into weapons and negating the penalty, and then it was reprinted in CWar and it's completely different. it's got different prereqs, different class abilities, and even the number of levels changed. lasher is sort of interesting too, but I think that in this case, exotic weapon master was updated under the same name.

you may very well be right, it just seems a little off to me that they'd update lasher to exotic weapon master while there is another 3.0 class that is drastically different that has the same name and same general fluff idea (even if they're different mechanically)

[Urpriest]

huh? I meant that in masters of the wild, there was a class called exotic weapon (sic) master that was keyed towards making random bits of junk like twigs and rocks into weapons and negating the penalty, and then it was reprinted in CWar and it's completely different. it's got different prereqs, different class abilities, and even the number of levels changed. lasher is sort of interesting too, but I think that in this case, exotic weapon master was updated under the same name.

you may very well be right, it just seems a little off to me that they'd update lasher to exotic weapon master while there is another 3.0 class that is drastically different that has the same name and same general fluff idea (even if they're different mechanically)

Some classes represent multiple things. Exotic Weapons Master is supposed to be the old Exotic Weapons Master, Lasher, and the chains one put into one PrC. There are a few others like that, mostly in CWar and the like.

[Venger]

Some classes represent multiple things. Exotic Weapons Master is supposed to be the old Exotic Weapons Master, Lasher, and the chains one put into one PrC. There are a few others like that, mostly in CWar and the like.

well, that's odd. thanks for the correction.

[TroubleBrewing]

Some classes represent multiple things. Exotic Weapons Master is supposed to be the old Exotic Weapons Master, Lasher, and the chains one put into one PrC. There are a few others like that, mostly in CWar and the like.

Invisible Blade is the opposite of this. It was originally one class, but got split into two (Invisible Blade and Master Thrower), but changing the prerequisites never made it through to the editor.

[Hunter Killer]

They're not as good as the previous maker's, but I've got trophies:

[Thurbane]

Nice one HK!

[TravelLog]

*Twitch*

Need to see builds!

[BobVosh]

This competition is already over, and the builds are posted.
I recommend taking your nervous twitching to the new thread :D