Iron Chef Optimization Challenge In The Playground #XXVIII

[Venger]

well, I'm somewhat ashamed to say that I can't find anything worthwhile to construct for this IC (coming from the guy who made Claire and Pumpkinhead for shadowdancer, and Monty Took for mindbender) so I'd be more than happy to judge since we always need more judges. criteria below:

scoring overall

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Like most of the other judges, I feel the simplest way to judge is to start from 3s in everything and add/subtract from there.

While I greatly enjoy backstory, I know that writing is not everyone's school of specialisation, so while an interesting concept can give you points in originality and a character arc can explain your class choices/transitions for elegance, lack of these things in your backstory can't lose points, so think of it as a "bonus" section.

I am familiar with the rules of the game and know a few tricks and combinations, but I might not be able to fully realise every build's potential for awesomeness by reading its chart alone. if there are any particular tricks/tips that your build can do that are especially important or that you feel would gain you points or lose points if a judge missed them, please explain or mention them in your entry so I don't miss them.

originality

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How original is your concept on its own merits? is it a tried and true classic like a diplomancer or a rainbow warsnake or is it something that hasn't been done before? obscurity is not a factor here, just the "I wish I'd thought of that" factor of your build.

Since the builds are submitted simultaneously, I'm not going to deduct for sharing similarities with other contestants. If the idea itself is good enough to throw me, I don't think it's fair for me to deduct from the people who come up later in the order.

power

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Having exhaustively examined the capabilities of cryokineticist, my standards for what is a powerful cryokineticist build will obviously be a little less stringent than what would be a powerful build for another more powerful class, the chefs are starting with a handicap as it were.

Can you overcome some of the inherent flaws with cryokineticist in your build? (ex: the frozen fist problem) if so, how do you do so, and how much better is your alternative?

elegance

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I do not believe in deductions from elegance due to obscurity or number of sources, so feel free to spread yourselves as thin as you feel appropriate when it comes to number of books.

I don't mind dips in general, some classes are only one or two levels long as far as optimisation is concerned. What I'm interested in is the justification or explanation behind it. This is someplace that your backstory can really help explain transitions from class to class.

A list of books for where you got all your ingredients would also make my fact-checking a lot easier.

use of the secret ingredient

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While it may be difficult given the secret ingredient, a good way to score points will definitely be if the build overall feels more like a cryokineticist than anything else. While more levels in the SI are obviously a good thing, you've got to have a reason behind them and the extra levels have to be a help rather than a hindrance to your build.

[gbprime]

Oh, i owe everyone some judge criteria. Ere ya go.

My Judging Criteria

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Originality - Surprise me. I want to see something out of the ordinary, be it Race, Class, PrC, feat combo, or backstory. If there's a simple and straightforward way to get a prerequisite or ability, find some other way. If there isn't another way to get it, then give it a unique spin or synergy. (Please note that Originality is relative. It may very well be original to use a specific race, unless multiple builds in the contest also used the same thing... which will tend to lower the score for all of them.)

Power - What is this build capable of cranking out? My criteria are based on the high side of a moderate power level, something any experienced DM could handle in their game. (See my past entries if you want examples.) If you exceed that power level, you get more points. Fail to exceed it, you get less. But if you exceed it TOO FAR, to the point that this build needs no other party members or renders other party members useless by comparison... well you won't lose points, but you won't get too many bonus ones either. (More power than a DM can handle is actually a BAD thing, IMO.)

Elegance - The classic hero in comic and myth is a capable fellow, does one thing amazingly well, and has one or more glaring weaknesses or tragic flaws. The more of that I see, the higher your score will be. I want to see powers and abilities fit into a seamless concept, not cherry picked to get extra dice or bonuses. (A good back story may help here.) If you need to dip into a class to get an ability, consider staying in it for longer than just a dip to fuel that concept. (Please note that elegance may come into direct conflict with power and/or originality, and it may not be possible for your concept to get high scores in all three. You live with these choices as tradeoffs.)

Use of Secret Ingredient - This one should be pretty obvious, so I'll list out a few specific things to keep in mind. Why did you pick this PrC? What does it do for you that you couldn't have done better by avoiding it? Did you use all 10 PrC levels? Did you keep putting skill ranks into the required skills? Did you get into the PrC so late that it's abilities were nearly obsolete when you gained them? Did you synergize or supercharge those abilities?

Scoring - Since we're going on a scale of 1-5 here, I'll be using 3.0 for each category as the default score. To that I'll add by the quarter point for good stuff and subtract by the quarter point for bad stuff. A dead average build should be around a 12 and the builds that go under 9 or over 15 should be rare. Y'know... in theory.

[gbprime]

well, I'm somewhat ashamed to say that I can't find anything worthwhile to construct for this IC (coming from the guy who made Claire and Pumpkinhead for shadowdancer, and Monty Took for mindbender) so I'd be more than happy to judge since we always need more judges.

Those who can't do, teach. I'm in the same boat this time.

[Gotterdammerung]

Why did you pick this PrC?

Because the contest told me to.

What does it do for you that you couldn't have done better by avoiding it?

Nothing... it is the worst class ever.


ohhhh God, I am panicking! The sky is falling run for the hills! We are all DOOOMED!

[Piggy Knowles]

Good lord, my build keeps crumbling. If I don't have a definite build skeleton that is of decent caliber by Monday, I'm going to scratch it and go in as a judge instead.

I mean, Energy Emanation? Really? You're going to require a second level power in order to take the class, and then never advance manifesting, or even tie your abilities into that power in any way, shape or form? I know people have been complaining about Frozen Fist's silliness, and the odd lawful requirement, and so on, but that's the thing that really gets to me about this class.

[Amphetryon]

Good lord, my build keeps crumbling. If I don't have a definite build skeleton that is of decent caliber by Monday, I'm going to scratch it and go in as a judge instead.

I mean, Energy Emanation? Really? You're going to require a second level power in order to take the class, and then never advance manifesting, or even tie your abilities into that power in any way, shape or form? I know people have been complaining about Frozen Fist's silliness, and the odd lawful requirement, and so on, but that's the thing that really gets to me about this class.

That's it. Feel the hate. Give in to your feelings and join me. . .

Sorry, momentary lapse there. I'm better now.

[Thurbane]

Yep, PrCs with reqs that are tangential to the class and not furthered by progression are real Iron Chef meat and potatoes!

In that respect, even Dragon Disciple makes Cryokineticist seem lame - I mean, at least DD gives bonus spell slots, if not advancing casting. Cryokineticist doesn't even throw that crumb! Of course, DD has shortcomings all of it's own.

[Amphetryon]

DD has shortcomings all of it's own

Schrödinger's Apotheosis says hi.

[TravelLog]

I feel like a horrible person for bringing this class up last competition.

*Guilt*

So...

Judging Criteria:

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Originality: I want something here I've never seen before and never thought of. Use the Cryokineticist in a way that makes me wonder how on earth you had the idea in the first place. Surprise me. Innovate!

Power: Can you destroy...er, maim...er, harm others in any way? This is a terrible, terrible class, so I'll be a bit lenient on this one. If you can achieve "mildly powerful" that will be a 5.

Elegance: I don't mind dips too much, but if every other level is a dip, you'll probably score low. Basically, just use good judgement. If your theme, story, and build flow then you'll do well in this category.

Use of Secret Ingredient: Did you use the Cryokineticist to its full limited potential? Did you take all 10 levels? Does it synergize well with the rest of your build? Keep the SI as the build's focus and innovate with it and you'll do fine.

General Note: I like things well organized and as complete as possible. The more you annotate and show clarity of thought and in-depth explanation, the more likely you are to get brownie points. I'm also a sucker for good backstory. However, if you have those things but a horrible build it won't help. They serve as my tie-breakers. As for points, I start at a flat 3 and go from there.

Hope this makes it up to everyone.

[DeAnno]

Love the theme, hate the mechanics (except for one part, which I don't think I can get enough out of). I'll probably continue my recent tradition of avoiding/failing at ICs with mediocre to awful ingredients.

Is it just me, or does this PRC (more than some others) seem to be written by someone who didn't really have a good feel for how 3.5e mechanics usually worked? I mean it isn't just that it's bad, it's kludgy. The manifesting thing, the move action/round limit on the bonus damage, the weird locked caster level on Wall of Ice, the unarmed damage, all of them don't quite seem to follow the usual pattern of how things are done.

[The Gilded Duke]

Damn it, I have an idea. Finishing it up now. I can see no other way to make this class work though.

[dextercorvia]

I never thought I'd look at a class and say, "If only they had copied the Pyrokineticist."

[Jeriah]

I've come up with an idea that I hope works. I've got the last 15 levels of the build codified, but I don't yet know what I'm going to do with the first 5... I think my idea should score high in originality and maybe elegance... I'm just concerned about power.

[TroubleBrewing]

We had what, two judges last time? We've already got 6-8 people who are posting interest in judging this one. This class just sucks hardcore, I guess.

[Gotterdammerung]

We had what, two judges last time? We've already got 6-8 people who are posting interest in judging this one. This class just sucks hardcore, I guess.

Lol yup. I had thought of doing a point by point listing of all the things inherently fail about this class, but I figured it might give some people build ideas. So I plan on waiting til the deadline is up and then doing my expose of this horrible steaming pile of a PrC.

[BobVosh]

I think I will just enjoy the ride, since we have so many judges. I have no interest in making something from this thing which pretends to be a prestige class.

[Gotterdammerung]

I hope I don't end up being the only one to finish a build... that would suck after putting this much work into it.

All I got left is a little story fluff and to put in skill points and I am done.

[Jeriah]

Well, my build is now complete. I just have to finish writing up some fluff for him.

[Jeriah]

Well, my build is now complete. I just have to finish writing up some fluff for him.

[Gotterdammerung]

Well, my build is now complete. I just have to finish writing up some fluff for him.

Cool, everything is done for me except skill points. I save that bit for last because it is tedious putting them in that darn chart.

[Jeriah]

I just threw together a spreadsheet to generate the forum code for me.

[Gotterdammerung]

I just threw together a spreadsheet to generate the forum code for me.

I don't know any computer voodoo

[Jeriah]

It isn't voodoo! It's witchcraft.

[Gotterdammerung]

It isn't voodoo! It's witchcraft.

Who do voodoo?????????!

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YOU DO VOODOO!!!!

[BobVosh]

You remind me of the babe.

[Venger]

You remind me of the babe.

what babe?

We had what, two judges last time? We've already got 6-8 people who are posting interest in judging this one. This class just sucks hardcore, I guess.

we theoretically had 4, but many people were drawn away by christmas things, which is more fun than judging mindbenders, so only 2 ultimately posted before the deadline, partially contributing to the tie for third.

Love the theme, hate the mechanics (except for one part, which I don't think I can get enough out of). I'll probably continue my recent tradition of avoiding/failing at ICs with mediocre to awful ingredients.

Is it just me, or does this PRC (more than some others) seem to be written by someone who didn't really have a good feel for how 3.5e mechanics usually worked? I mean it isn't just that it's bad, it's kludgy. The manifesting thing, the move action/round limit on the bonus damage, the weird locked caster level on Wall of Ice, the unarmed damage, all of them don't quite seem to follow the usual pattern of how things are done.

You are correct, scorponok. This is a common thread in 3.5 in general, especially with bad PrCs, including some of the ones chosen for ICs past (if you're in the mood for a headache, read the pages of debate about the flame lash back in pyrokineticist)

I'm reasonably certain the person who wrote this class thought energy emanation was a 1st level power, so you'd only need a 1 lvl dip in a manifesting class to qualify, which isn't completely unworkable rather than 3. the frozen fist trap seems unintentional, since it's not as though people were breaking the game with pyrokineticist's fire punch hands afire

[ExemplarofAvg]

Umm, Criteria

So like every other judge before me, I'll start with a Base of three, and plus or minus half points for everything.

Originality: I'm pretty much certain everything coming out of this competition will be original. I will be looking however for Pyro-Cryo connections so just re-fluffing one of the Pyrokineticist builds will not get you places. But if you take like one or two ideas, I won't deduct.

Power: Just maybe make sure it's better than the one line in Frostburn "Some [Cryokineticists] bring their unique control of cold to warm or even hot environments, charging dearly for their cold generating powers" You should be more than a walking-talking air conditioning system.

Elegance: I like flow, and rhythm. The beauty of the universe lies in it's simplicity. Clunk, Clutter and Junk can be an eyesore, try to be effective at all levels. Think of it like taking a road trip, you don't want too many pit stops while you're trying to get to your goal, so you only stop when you need to.

Use of Secret Ingredient: Umm, Think like the three secrets of french cooking (Butter, Butter and Butter) so aim to take at LEAST three levels. Just so you can taste it in the dish. Would prefer to see the flavour and the aroma brought to bold, but with this just a dash of it will suffice.

General Note: I like fluff, I like well written entries. I like flow in writing, Cluttered builds are a little bothersome to read. So Organize, and put time and effort into your writing beyond "They did this, then this and now they're this" I can't give marks for it, but like having a good attendance in a class, if your mark comes along a halfway point, I'll round higher.

That being said, Good Luck, Have Fun, and don't (Frost)burn yourselves in the kitchen.

[BobVosh]

what babe?

The babe with the power.

I'm starting to think we will have more judges than entries. You have outdone yourself Amp to manage this.

If even Tactical soldier, and Green Star Adept garner more attention...I weep for the poor Cryokineticist.

[Gotterdammerung]

The babe with the power.

I'm starting to think we will have more judges than entries. You have outdone yourself Amp to manage this.

If even Tactical soldier, and Green Star Adept garner more attention...I weep for the poor Cryokineticist.

I don't see the big problems with GSA and Tac Soldier. I mean they certainly aren't uber powered PrC's but they aren't hard to build with and they are certainly playable. I ran a pretty fun epic game with a party of GSA's in an underwater campaign. And I have seen a few tac soldier builds that weren't bad at all.

Cryokineticest is far worse than Tac and GSA to me.

[Gotterdammerung]

Ok after a million proof reads and a lot of filling out tables I am 100% submitted.

I kinda feel guilty. My party is about to poke around in some Narfell Ruins tonight. I had 3 weeks to prepare... procrastinated, then in the crucial time where I should have been coming up with something for them to do... I was 100% distracted with building around this steaming pile PrC.

Oh well, I am glad I am good at impromptu adventures.

P.S. If anyone knows any good links to stories, info, mods about Narfell ruins it would help me pull off tonights adventure.


On a side note, I had a funny moment last night with my roommate. We went to see a movie with some friends. When the movie was over we were walking into the parking complex to leave. Our friends were right behind the 2 of us when we walked through the door and we could hear their excessive chatter. We didn't see anybody else nearby when we went through the door. Suddenly, everything was quiet. We turned around to see what happened to our friends and a bunch of strangers started walking through the door. My roommate and I looked at each other for a few moments. We both seemed to be thinking "Well, this is strange."

My roommate shrugged his shoulders and said, "hmm, I guess they went into a different instance."