[3.5] *sigh* Paladin vs Wizard. He started it

[Manateee]

This is just silly.

Anyway, I can't remember my rpg.net login, so can we just say if Leadership is allowed, this wizard takes it for a Circle Magic-using cohort to nullify the Leadership solution over that's being pushed over there?

[Icewraith]

So now I'm curious... who actually challenged the other to a duel?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feel free to bring up the point that if you bring allies, it's not actually a duel. It's kind of the definition.

He's thinking of it as a war. And he's thinking the paladin is using commando tactics.

[pwykersotz]

Heh, after reading both sides, I'm tempted to sign up to rpg.net and help the Paladin. Support the underdog and all that.

[Randomguy]

Arcane sight would make guerrilla tactics ineffective, since with it active you can see which one has the most magic items and buffs, and that would probably be the paladin in charge or possibly his cohort (but definitely not the followers).

And he can't UMD nystul's magic aura on all his items before hand unless the wizard can start with all his all day buffs.

[Icewraith]

For verisimilitude, you could chain a bunch of Nystul's Magic Auras onto some of your followers, so they appear to have the same magical bonuses the Paladin does. However, this isn't the most effective use of your gold, I'm mentioning this for the sake of thoroughness.

Greater Arcane Sight addresses this.

Even if you ban infinite wish/gate loops and candles of invocation the Paladin is still in trouble- he can be unambiguously be identified as the one guy with Mind Blank (unless you really want to pay for multiple castings of that, it can't be chained without an epic caster or an incantatrix with an item of spellcraft) running, unless you want him to be vulnerable to normal divinations in which case he's dead already- the hole will be blatantly obvious with detect thoughts, helm of telepathy, or similar even if he's using Nystul's Magic Aura to spoof Arcane Sight on his minions.

Celerity, time stop, all of the clouds/Maw of Chaos +sufficient timestops, Dimensional Lock, forcecageX2, one wish to negate wishes, done.

...What happens if you cast Maw of Chaos and then Dimensional Lock the area? Either the two spells don't affect each other or Dimensional Lock ends maw of chaos's effect?

[Worira]

Why is a 15th level wizard casting so many 9th-level spells?

[Icewraith]

Oh right, 15th level. Insert "scroll of" here if necessary.

Also, the real lynchpins of the combo- Forcecage is 7th, dimensional lock is 8th, celerity isn't in the SRD but can't be higher than 5th, scroll of timestop, all of the clouds are lower than 9th, Maw of Chaos was mainly for showing off because it's nasty.

So mainly the timestop scrolls are ninth. With that starting gold and since this thing is being built for one fight, you can probably buy enough to do it three or four times, plus a scroll of disjunction if he has some magical item I haven't thought of to get out of the combo the first time. Oh and you prepare celerity twice instead of once.

Even without timestop if we lower the cheesiness of this we also should take out leadership, celerity is enough to Forcecage him and force him to waste his turn doing something to get out of there and reveal what his plan for dealing with forcecage is- most likely you can disintegrate, shatter, dispel, or dimensional anchor/lock it, celerity again, forcecage again, take forcecage's duration to do whatever you need to win, and win.

[Vknight]

I just read the rpg.net advice.

Here is my conclusion.
They are being foolish with there ideas. All they are suggesting is charge and leadership abuse. A few spells for protection then followed up with fireballs or better yet a scroll of 'Apocalypse From the Sky'(Note: Not actually a good idea)
Nothing worth mentioning. They are wanting a war when he said right off the bat its a duel(A duel is between 2individuals, not armies).

So bad strategy to take down a Wizard.
Good strategy to take down a Sorcerer.

[Curious]

I just read the rpg.net advice.

Here is my conclusion.
They are fools, you could play a blaster and win. All they are suggesting is charge and leadership abuse. A few spells for protection then followed up with fireballs or better yet a scroll of 'Apocalypse From the Sky'(Note: Not actually a good idea)
Nothing worth mentioning. They are wanting a war when he said right off the bat its a duel(Do they not comprehend a duel is between 2individuals).

And the ones not suggesting that are saying to cheat so the Paladin falls.

I think it may be best if you do not openly insult another board, or disparage their intelligence. This thread is for the discussion of strategy (such as is needed), not promoting warfare between boards.

[gooddragon1]

PAO twice? You've probably got enough int to get a bonus 8th level slot from items and normal stat gain. PAO into something with ridiculous stat bonuses and do that again.

[Cirrylius]

Let him fall for attacking a non-hostile, non-criminal, good bystander...Then kill him.

I... This...

...you magnificent bastard. Outstanding.

[Vknight]

I think it may be best if you do not openly insult another board, or disparage their intelligence. This thread is for the discussion of strategy (such as is needed), not promoting warfare between boards.

I don't insult the boards intelligence but rather the level of intellect they are currently showing in that topic.
Just making that clear. There being fools they are not actually fools would be the best way to put it.
I'm going to edit my earlier post to make that clear.

[Coidzor]

This has already gotten bigger and more nasty than it already had to be, adding to it is probably not an advisable course of action.

[Xynphos]

Immobilize him, use raven familiar to drop swan boats on him :)

[Hirax]

If it's a leadership contest, the wizard is just going to win that too. Because then instead of merely being able to chain gate in solars, the wizard could have an apprentice/cohort that's also capable of chain gating solars for double the fun. If you want to bring in leadership and minionomancy, things get worse for the paladin very quickly.

[Rankar]

I agree with everyone that this has gotten silly. Just letting everyone know that. We're still gonna have this battle. Might try for next week (I've been preparing a PF campaign alongside making this character so my brain's been addled a bit (not to mention school)).

A few things have been amended by our DM. No minions in the arena with us. Beyond that: I haven't heard anything. So if this battle is between JUST a wizard and JUST a paladin (whether his mount'll be allowed I haven't had the chance to ask). I will be allowed to prepare a few (DM's approval) spells before the battle (daily buffs, etc) as well as 1 round right before we roll initiative.

Helldog, I did propose the idea of battling an encounter with the Paladin but he'd rather face me head on.

Icewraith, it was a bit of lousy boasting on both our parts that led to this. I made a comment that a wizard could beat a paladin and it escalated from there. I won't disclose more detail to keep the facepalming to a minimum.

He has also agreed we'll refrain from Gate/Candle of Invocation abuse. And no Pun-Pun for either of us.

NOW! Since that is out of the way, I'm gonna have to rebuild my character a bit just because I fear he's been given enough advice that my original build of "smite him quickly" won't work (stupid deathward). I've been given enough ideas that I'll just roll random on what style to go with... *rolls for which school of magic to specialize in* Huh. Well, this ought to be entertaining.

[Hirax]

When you say just wizard and just paladin, are prestige classes allowed for either of you?

[Rankar]

When you say just wizard and just paladin, are prestige classes allowed for either of you?

I'm still assuming yes.

[Helldog]

The thread title is a lie.

[Merellis]

So you started it? I think the wizard with the twisted tongue might be jealous of the honest paladin.

[absolmorph]

The thread title is a lie.

Er... What are you basing this on?

[SacrificialLamb]

Hi, guys! It is I, the Sacrificial Lamb. Maybe I should reveal myself. I'm the guy that gave the Paladin advice over on the thread at rpgnet. It got a little heated, but I do believe the advice I provided was rock-solid. Now please proceed to hurling rotten tomatoes in my general direction...

[Coidzor]

Er... What are you basing this on?

Well, it's come up that what measure is a Paladin is in question here, since there were apparently serious Ur-Priest suggestions made and there's a sort of he said she said we said thing going on about how this all actually started.

[SacrificialLamb]

If I might make a suggestion, I'd make both the Paladin and Wizard characters be single-classed characters, if only to prove what the classes are capable of...

[olentu]

Hi, guys! It is I, the Sacrificial Lamb. Maybe I should reveal myself. I'm the guy that gave the Paladin advice over on the thread at rpgnet. It got a little heated, but I do believe the advice I provided was rock-solid. Now please proceed to hurling rotten tomatoes in my general direction...

Hmm was your advice the take leadership and have the wizard cohort defeat the other wizard while hoping the wizard does not also take leadership or bring any other minions as that is not the worst advice by a long shot. Well except for that whole duel thing and bringing in minions but you know people use duel in a less then strict way all the time so I don't count that as necessarily a problem when not specified.

[Shadowleaf]

Hmm was your advice the take leadership and have the wizard cohort defeat the other wizard while hoping the wizard does not also take leadership or bring any other minions as that is not the worst advice by a long shot. Well except for that whole duel thing and bringing in minions but you know people use duel in a less then strict way all the time so I don't count that as necessarily a problem when not specified.

But you're assuming both sides makes use of it. If the Paladin wins by having NI Solars while the Wizard felt like Leadership was too cheesy, you are not proving anything. That is why you should just out-right ban it.

Also applies for less cheesy examples: The Paladin having a Cleric cohort to buff him, for instance.

I totally called it.

[olentu]

I totally called it.

That you did. But I felt the need to reiterate for clarification as I do not know if he actually suggested that tactic or not. Leadership was mentioned with regards to the paladin advice given in the thread but not who gave such advice and he was rather hazy on just what advice he gave and I am not going to bother tossing fruit at someone just anytime they ask if I am feeling lazy and their reason is not sufficiently good.

[Helldog]

Er... What are you basing this on?

On the OPs post.

Icewraith, it was a bit of lousy boasting on both our parts that led to this. I made a comment that a wizard could beat a paladin and it escalated from there. I won't disclose more detail to keep the facepalming to a minimum.

[Randomguy]

If I might make a suggestion, I'd make both the Paladin and Wizard characters be single-classed characters, if only to prove what the classes are capable of...

That would just give the wizard more of an advantage. Wizard's best feature are their spells, and they don't need to prestige to improve that. Paladins stop getting class features after level 5, other than extra uses of smite evil which they could get more of from paladin-themed prestige classes, and remove disease one or two times per week. They've just got d10 HD and full BAB after that.

At the very least, make paladin themed prestige classes allowed for the paladin, like grey guard, pious templar and shadowbane inquisitioner.