[3.5] *sigh* Paladin vs Wizard. He started it

[Hirax]

If you can afford it, an amulet of second chances is another great item, it lets you completely redo your turn. Mantles of second chances are also nice, they're one of the few ways to be able to reroll non-d20 rolls. Both are in the Magic Item Compendium.

[absolmorph]

Why not just use a heightened (+3) Flesh to Salt, plus a couple iterations of Sudden Quicken, Sudden Maximize, and Shout.
Open with Flesh to Salt (maximizing the first two might be necessary); if it doesn't turn him to salt (and you haven't used Abrupt Jaunt, or you've got a Belt of Battle), follow it with a second one (using Sudden Quicken). If it still fails, repeat on your second turn.
Once he's salt, cast Prestidigitation and make a nice cup of tea. After you've finished your tea, use Shout. Now that he's a crystalline object, he takes 15d6 damage. He has 5 HP per inch of thickness. Unless he's incredibly thick, he should be taken out quite easily.
If you like the statue you made, you can just grab it and teleport back to your study with it; you might want to research a spell to turn it into stone, so water won't damage it. Alternatively, you can prepare a tank of water and submerge the statue.

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why not just use a heightened (+3) Flesh to Salt, plus a couple iterations of Sudden Quicken, Sudden Maximize, and Shout.
Open with Flesh to Salt (maximizing the first two might be necessary); if it doesn't turn him to salt (and you haven't used Abrupt Jaunt, or you've got a Belt of Battle), follow it with a second one (using Sudden Quicken). If it still fails, repeat on your second turn.
Once he's salt, cast Prestidigitation and make a nice cup of tea. After you've finished your tea, use Shout. Now that he's a crystalline object, he takes 15d6 damage. He has 5 HP per inch of thickness. Unless he's incredibly thick, he should be taken out quite easily.
If you like the statue you made, you can just grab it and teleport back to your study with it; you might want to research a spell to turn it into stone, so water won't damage it. Alternatively, you can prepare a tank of water and submerge the statue.

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.

Fort save is going to be pathetically easy for a Paladin who, in addition to having a high Fort save from his class, also gets his Charisma bonus to saves...

So, assuming a 28 Charisma (using same calculations you have, without the +2 racial and only a +4 enhancement), and an even halfway average Con score (let's call it 22), and a +5 Cloak of Resistance... he can't possibly fail the save.

It's a much better idea to spam things like Shivering Touch which don't offer a save.

[Venser]

Permanency+invisible,
power word: blind(to buy some time),
either some strong non save dmg dealing spell or disentigrate,
use wish to get power word kill,
kill him.

or

any spell that would lower his fort quite a bit, any spell at all
or
something that would raise your dc for lvl 6 spells sky high(like 50 or something)
wish(your next spell will be maximized)
disintegrate

or

summon monster VII(as much monsters as you can)
polymorph them into dragons

[Flickerdart]

Assuming a 32 Int (18 base + 2 racial + 3 levels + 3 Tome of Clear Thought + 6 enhancement), he has to make a Fort DC of 29+ any bonuses from stuff like Spell Focus at least twice to avoid being turned to salt. This has the downside of using up your 8th level slots, but on the other hand it leaves your move action free.

At 15th level a Paladin could easily have +24 or higher to his Fortitude save, meaning that this is a hilariously easy DC to make. Don't target his best save. Don't target any saves if you can help it.

[Siosilvar]

I'm going with Conjurer w/ Abrupt Jaunt banning enchantment and evocation.

The abrupt jaunt is my preventative measure if he wins initiative and has teleportation/whatever.

Quickened True Strike then Maximized Reach Shivering Touch.

Should that fail, another quickened true strike with dimensional anchor and just go to town. Orbs, cloudkill, polymorph, etc.

Note that you can't use an immediate action if you lose initiative, because you're still flat-footed. Also, an immediate action uses your swift action next round, so you can't quicken on the round after an Abrupt Jaunt.

[Rankar]

Note that you can't use an immediate action if you lose initiative, because you're still flat-footed. Also, an immediate action uses your swift action next round, so you can't quicken on the round after an Abrupt Jaunt.

This is another part of why I read these forums. I don't know all the rules perfectly. I actually looked that one up earlier today when I should have been studying (learning about motorcycle suspension with a 1980's cheesy video is boring btw). Thank you for the clarification. This shall prevent me from abusing the rules unintentionally.

[Matsci]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?...adin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.

[legomaster00156]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?...adin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.

The Wizard is getting help. The Paladin is getting help. All is fair, although if one of you guys really feel like lying and placing the blame on the other is necessary, this has already gone too far out of character, and you two need to have a serious talk about what is competitive and what is all in good fun. (Hint: D&D is all in good fun.)

[Incanur]

Celerity is all well and good cheese, but if we're assuming a similarly optimized paladin, he's packing Celerity too. The feat Sword of the Arcane Order will allow him to cast a level 4 Wizard spell and easily allow him to interrupt your interrupt.

This makes me wonder about the best route to go as a paladin: Sword of the Arcane Order or the Mage Slayer line? You can't effectively do both. SotAO increases the MADness, but that matters less at level 15 than it does at level 1.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This makes me wonder about the best route to go as a paladin: Sword of the Arcane Order or the Mage Slayer line? You can't effectively do booth. SotAO increases the MADness, but that matters less at level 15 than it does at level 1.

It doesn't matter. Mage Slayer doesn't only affect arcane casting.

[Jack_Simth]

Ohh... That's devious. I like it.

Thank you.

In other words, pulling HIM into the Ethereal plane and abusing the fact that while several things can hit Ethereal from the Material, vice versa is a lot harder, and not within the capabilities of a paladin.

Exactly. Make Manifest has a save... but the Mass version, not so much, and while the example is yanking an Ethereal critter to the material... it's just an example, and the actual text just requires "a coexistant plane". One of the few ways to cause serious hurt to someone on the material. If you really want to be devious, stop and put a barred Forcecage over the area he's in before you cast Make Manifest, Mass. That way he can't walk out of the area of the spell easily... although he probably does have at least one counter for a wall of force like that.

I like it.

There's also something to be said for being cruel and unusual, using Black Tentacles and then poking him to death with a stick...

Note that Black Tentacles doesn't do anything if the target has Freedom of Movement, which is just a 40,000 gp ring... or better, the Cowl of Warding which, while costing just over 200,000 gp, also grants Mind Blank and a small amount of Spell Turning, both of which would be very useful for the Paladin against a 'generic' Wizard.

[undead hero]

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Wizard over on the RPG.net forums. And he needs all the help he can get...

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?...adin-vs-Wizard

Interestingly enough, they have a bit of a different story about how this duel got started.

I hope the creator of this thread and the person that created that thread is the same person XD hahaha

[Rankar]

*rummages through texts/facebook conversation*

Hmm... It looks as though there was poor communication going on between us. On both sides. Yeesh this is getting to the point of silly.

*reads through suggestions for the paladin*

*sigh* I feel that this whole thing needs reevaluated.

[Helldog]

Just drop it. It became stupid (or rather it was stupid from the start, but now it's official).

[Snowbluff]

Just drop it. It became stupid (or rather it was stupid from the start, but now it's official).

Agreed. A paladin should not be taken seriously even in the most dire of circumstances (in RP terms, these guys are hams), and it's obvious the only way he'd win in the first place would be by outcheesing you.

[Helldog]

If you two really want to test your optimization abilities, try something like a Same Game Test. Instead fighting each-other, fight a solo encounter. The encounter will be stated and run by a 3rd party (one of your friends or your DM). You both will fight the same encounter and whoever defeats the encounter faster is the winner.

[Flickerdart]

I love that thread. "But what if the Paladin takes Leadership and buys a Candle of Invocation and brings Solars, then the Paladin can win."

Once you start bring in minions, Greater Planar Binding + Nightmare means the Wizard cannot lose. GG.

[Rankar]

If you two really want to test your optimization abilities, try something like a Same Game Test. Instead fighting each-other, fight a solo encounter. The encounter will be stated and run by a 3rd party (one of your friends or your DM). You both will fight the same encounter and whoever defeats the encounter faster is the winner.

THIS. I like this idea. I'd probably ask for a few encounters just so it requires more variations rather than just "who wins initiative". *scribbles things to ask the DM*

I love that thread. "But what if the Paladin takes Leadership and buys a Candle of Invocation and brings Solars, then the Paladin can win."

Once you start bring in minions, Greater Planar Binding + Nightmare means the Wizard cannot lose. GG.

And this is why the contest needs reevaluated. I was trying to prevent over cheesing it (I asked for cheese because I enjoy hearing ideas. I wouldn't use it on something like this (Okay I would but only to see the look on someone's face when they hear "your empowered maximized twin spell does WHAT? AT LEVEL 1????")) but if summoning solars/leadership is getting brought in, it ruins the point of the duel/contest/whatever.

Again, I thank you guys for the aid in theorizing. And Undead Hero, I didn't write that thread but that does sound like something I'd do to entertain myself... *makes a few new email addresses so he can argue with himself*

[Elboxo]

Abrupt Jaunt Wizard into Incantatrix, give saves that don't offer saves, target his low stats, like Twin/Empowered 'Ray of Clumsiness' (SPC) at CL 15 equates to 1d6 + 5 Dex damage before metamagic, follow it up with a 'Spectral Hand'ed (SRD) 'Shivering Touch (It's cold outside).

You don't even have to get near him and you can reduce his Dex by about 9, absolute minimum. Before metamagic, your average Dex reduction is 1d6 (3) + 5 + 3d6 (9)= 17.

Add metamagic and enjoy.

Ray of Clumsiness is a penalty, and Shivering Touch is damage, so I think the two stack.

Of course you have Contigent Spell: Polymorph into Dire Tortoise, and the feat Natural Spell so you don't lose initiative, then you can target him with a no-save knockout spell while you set yourself up for the Dex destruction.

He brought this on himself, no reason to play fair, heck, after you bring his Dex to 1 you can walk around him and coup de grace him with your knuckles, then Dominate him and make a story about how he's such a faithful foot-massager for the rest of his life.

[The Glyphstone]

They're on to us:

I feel compelled to mention that it looks like your friend is getting tutored on how to kill your Paladin over on the Giant In The Playground forums. As if he needs any help...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=227463

Edit: Also, you should probably add your Charisma bonus to the counterspelling attempt. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Incanur]

It doesn't matter. Mage Slayer doesn't only affect arcane casting.

How does that change the dynamic I mentioned? Either you go Mage Slayer and forget about spells, or you go Sword of the Arcane Order and maximize your spellcasting ability.

[legomaster00156]

Great. It's basically been extended from Player vs. Player to Forum vs. Forum, and both are watching the other. It's time to stop.

[Coidzor]

Great. It's basically been extended from Player vs. Player to Forum vs. Forum, and both are watching the other. It's time to stop.

Huh. Now that's surprising and disappointing. I wouldn't have expected any vitriol to come up against us from rpg.net.

[The Glyphstone]

Huh. Now that's surprising and disappointing. I wouldn't have expected any vitriol to come up against us from rpg.net.

There's not really any vitriol. It is getting uncomfortably meta, though.

[Coidzor]

There's not really any vitriol. It is getting uncomfortably meta, though.

Ahh, that's a relief. I don't really want to go over there and look, especially now, but I also was rather distinctly uncomfortable with the implications of where things were going...x.x

[Elboxo]

I hope the creator of this thread and the person that created that thread is the same person XD hahaha

Amazing, someone suggested you be forced to start mounted with phantom steed to 'make concentration checks and waste a slot'.

level 15 phantom steed flies at like 300 feet/ round and spell concentration check to Move, Cast, then Move again, basically spring attack but with 300 foot flight speed, is DC 15 + spell level, IIRC.

Invisible spell: Phantom steed, to keep it alive, followup with my previous post about Dex destruction, and then toil with him with Invisible planar allies or summoned monsters.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I might just join RPG.net so that I can argue with Sacrificial Lamb over the matter of a paladin being capable of beating a highly-optimized wizard (while using tactics that may or may not cause the paladin to fall), Leadership being broken, the wizard using Leadership to negate the paladin's Leadership, the wizard using Astral Projection from his hiding place deep in the Beastlands (he can use a scroll, and I know that example was banned from the duel, but if Leadership is being brought into it...) to use Fireball on followers and Orb spells on the paladin and his cohort while completely safe, using Plane Shift if he somehow gets destroyed.

[Worira]

Feel free to bring up the point that if you bring allies, it's not actually a duel. It's kind of the definition.

[Flickerdart]

Actually, RAW Astral Projection only works while the body is on the Material Plane - though that doesn't stop you from hiding the body once you've projected, using your delicious wizard spells.