Bleach V: Well that was a waste of time (Fullbring? What's that?)

[VanBuren]

Ichigo has not been pushed to nearly the point of using his hollow powers yet (He always seemed to favor his Soul Reaper Powers). I think they are still there and will show themselves when needed. Probably in a spectacular way (Hey, it's Bleach!).

Now here is question. A Soul Reaper can gain Hollow Powers. A Hollow can gain Soul Reaper Powers. It seems a Quincy can gain Hollow powers. Does than mean a Soul Reaper can gain Quincy powers and visa versa?

The only thing that makes me doubt that, is that the last time we heard about his Hollow side, he'd been reintegrated into his shinigami side, and we were reminded that there wasn't really a difference this entire time.

So... I'm still not convinced his Hollow exists as a separate entity anymore.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Wasn't it when Ichigo needed the power of the Ultimate Gatsuga to be able to stand up to Aizen? I took that as that the hollow and Zangetsu united under a common need. As such I guess that after Ichigo lost his powers they separated once more... or maybe Zangetsu's new look means he actually merged with the Hollow?

[VanBuren]

Wasn't it when Ichigo needed the power of the Ultimate Gatsuga to be able to stand up to Aizen? I took that as that the hollow and Zangetsu united under a common need. As such I guess that after Ichigo lost his powers they separated once more... or maybe Zangetsu's new look means he actually merged with the Hollow?

Really? I took that to be a sort of permanent thing, especially coupled with the realization that even Hollow Ichigo just wanted to protect Ichigo. Which kind of makes sense if you allow for a very liberal interpretation of that.

As for the new look, Word of God is that his shinigami powers fused with the remnants of his Fullbring.

[Socratov]

I do like how the fact that is previously really unwieldy sword somehow got more unwieldy... and he's swinging it around like a toothpick... Seriously, this series is a testament against newton...

[Drolyt]

I do like how the fact that is previously really unwieldy sword somehow got more unwieldy... and he's swinging it around like a toothpick... Seriously, this series is a testament against newton...

I always just assumed he had super strength.

[thubby]

I do like how the fact that is previously really unwieldy sword somehow got more unwieldy... and he's swinging it around like a toothpick... Seriously, this series is a testament against newton...

its more than a sword. it's as much a part of him as a limb. it being unwieldy would be like you not being able to punch someone.

[nazgulnine]

its more than a sword. it's as much a part of him as a limb. it being unwieldy would be like you not being able to punch someone.

"This is my shikai! There are many like it, but this one is mine! Without me, my shikai is useless! Without my shikai, I am useless!"

[Kaez]

Cept even without his sword, he's NOT entirely useless. Mind you since the power creep happened during/after SS arc, hand to hand combat became less reliable for Ichigo.

But there was a point when he rocked without his shikai (once, and only once).

[Drolyt]

Cept even without his sword, he's NOT entirely useless. Mind you since the power creep happened during/after SS arc, hand to hand combat became less reliable for Ichigo.

But there was a point when he rocked without his shikai (once, and only once).

He's always been strong without his Zanpakuto, even before he became a Shinigami, but since his only powers are super strength and speed and his Zanpakuto greatly amplifies those while also giving him a weapon... besides that, his Zanpakuto is only a physical manifestation of his power.

[Kaez]

Fair enough, I'm just saying, when was the last time we've seen him JUST use his fists and legs for combat, no zanpaktou. Prolly not since SS arc.

Most of the time it was in conjunction with his zanpaktou. I mean he basically roflstomped Aizen without using his sword. Prolly in hindsight he would have won even without using the Final Getsuga based off how that fight was going XD.

[Psyren]

The only thing that makes me doubt that, is that the last time we heard about his Hollow side, he'd been reintegrated into his shinigami side, and we were reminded that there wasn't really a difference this entire time.

So... I'm still not convinced his Hollow exists as a separate entity anymore.

I definitely agree, though I wouldn't put it past Kubo to conveniently forget this development when it's time to angst Ichigo up again.

[jindra34]

Fair enough, I'm just saying, when was the last time we've seen him JUST use his fists and legs for combat, no zanpaktou. Prolly not since SS arc.

Um... he did at the absolute start of the Fullbring arc. Then again he it was versus mundanes and he didn't have his zanpaktou available for use.

[Socratov]

that said, he doesn't have any use of kido (i mean, he really sucks at stabilizing his reiatsu output) so he does need his superspeed and strength

On the topic of a zanpakuto, yes it is specifically for you and part of you and yet a seperate thing (a seperate entity in your inner spiritworld even). And if a zanpauto would be wieldable without drawbacks for size, why wouldn't all captains use a BFS? The fact that you can wield it with superstrength doesnt mean you can just swing it around like a twig (it seems even in the spiritworld some form of Newtonian physics seem to be present). I would've liked to see some more adaptation to different fighting styles for different swords. Just like the squad 1 lieutenant should use stabs instead of slashes, because he was a fencing sword. But whether a cleaver, a katana or any other type of slashing based sword, they all slash the same way regardless of size, type or whatever. Only if the weapon is radically different (liek a floret or combatknife or polearm) the style seems to differ...

[Calemyr]

Would Newtonian physics affect spiritual beings? I mean, they stand on solid ground ten feet above said solid ground, and can't comprehend how humans can construe that as flying. And the less said about Ikkaku's bankai on that matter, the better.

The only person to use an unwieldy sword with a physical body thus far is Ginjo, and the mass of it was something both sides acknowledged, as it limited his attacks - or would have if there hadn't been that second hilt he could use to change up his timing and range options.

Or... is Ichigo now a physical Soul Reaper? I didn't notice him leaving his body during the transformation during the fight with Ginjo.

[Psyren]

The only person to use an unwieldy sword with a physical body thus far is Ginjo, and the mass of it was something both sides acknowledged, as it limited his attacks - or would have if there hadn't been that second hilt he could use to change up his timing and range options.

Don't the Vizard fight in their gigai too? So Love's hilariously oversized club (Tengumaru) would qualify also.

Or... is Ichigo now a physical Soul Reaper? I didn't notice him leaving his body during the transformation during the fight with Ginjo.

Nah, he left his body while the others were nomming bread to go and stomp FailCar. So he still has to do that.

[Calemyr]

Don't the Vizard fight in their gigai too? So Love's hilariously oversized club (Tengumaru) would qualify also.

I don't see why they would. It'd be a liability at best - an asset that adds nothing to the battle but can be destroyed if not looked after. What would be the point of soul candy if you could just go take your gigai to fight? Why would the Soul Reapers willingly humiliate themselves with those ridiculous personas if they didn't need to keep their body out of the fight? Have we ever seen anyone use a zanpakto, kido, or anything spiritual beyond senses while in a Gigai?

[Psyren]

I don't see why they would. It'd be a liability at best - an asset that adds nothing to the battle but can be destroyed if not looked after. What would be the point of soul candy if you could just go take your gigai to fight? Why would the Soul Reapers willingly humiliate themselves with those ridiculous personas if they didn't need to keep their body out of the fight? Have we ever seen anyone use a zanpakto, kido, or anything spiritual beyond senses while in a Gigai?

Vizards are not precisely soul reapers though, not anymore, so the same rules may not apply. Urahara said he made special gigai for them (in TBTP) and their outfits are the same whether fighting or where other people can see them, so I simply assumed they never took their gigai off.

[Calemyr]

Vizards are not precisely soul reapers though, not anymore, so the same rules may not apply. Urahara said he made special gigai for them (in TBTP) and their outfits are the same whether fighting or where other people can see them, so I simply assumed they never took their gigai off.

That was a stealth gigai, one that would keep them under the radar, keep the Soul Society from tracking down and butchering them like abominations. That's how they could enjoy the relatively peaceful life they had until Aizen took off his glasses. But when the chips were down, that would still allow them to drop the gigai and take up the mask. With Mr Pink's barrier voodoo, I doubt they needed to use them at home, because even Orihime's superhuman sensitivity to Ichigo's presence had trouble overcoming it. Operating outside the warehouse, however, they would still need their gigai. Since they had no intention of hiding during the battle for the four pillars, they wouldn't have needed to bring their gigai with them.

But hollows and reapers are still spirit beings. Unlike Fullbringers, who bring a physical element into it, Vizard are still purely spiritual unless they employ a Gigai.

Besides, TBTP was a century earlier. If Urahara had the tech to make workable combat gigai back then, why would he only be selling the limited ones to Soul Society, especially when the war with Aizen was looming so close?

[turbo164]

Have we ever seen anyone use a zanpakto, kido, or anything spiritual beyond senses while in a Gigai?

Rukia performed some very watered down Kido during the Substitute arc. They could have been weak because of the gigai or because of the still-recovering-from-giving-powers-to-Ichigo, though. And the fact it was an Uruhara-made Gigai (with a prize at the bottom of the box) might matter too.

[Psyren]

That was a stealth gigai, one that would keep them under the radar, keep the Soul Society from tracking down and butchering them like abominations. That's how they could enjoy the relatively peaceful life they had until Aizen took off his glasses. But when the chips were down, that would still allow them to drop the gigai and take up the mask. With Mr Pink's barrier voodoo, I doubt they needed to use them at home, because even Orihime's superhuman sensitivity to Ichigo's presence had trouble overcoming it. Operating outside the warehouse, however, they would still need their gigai. Since they had no intention of hiding during the battle for the four pillars, they wouldn't have needed to bring their gigai with them.

If they weren't in gigai during the fight, where were their shinigami uniforms? As we can plainly see from both TBTP and the end of the Fullbring arc in Soul Society, their shinigami bodies still have uniforms. If they were not in gigai, they would have these uniforms during the battle as well.

Rukia performed some very watered down Kido during the Substitute arc. They could have been weak because of the gigai or because of the still-recovering-from-giving-powers-to-Ichigo, though. And the fact it was an Uruhara-made Gigai (with a prize at the bottom of the box) might matter too.

Aizen explained this at the end of the rescue arc; Rukia's gigai was designed to drain all her spiritual power away (turning her into a Plus) so as to hide her soul, and within it Urahara's Hougyoku. Hers was a unique case and does not apply to the Visored because they had no Hougyokus of their own to hide.

[Calemyr]

If they weren't in gigai during the fight, where were their shinigami uniforms? As we can plainly see from both TBTP and the end of the Fullbring arc in Soul Society, their shinigami bodies still have uniforms. If they were not in gigai, they would have these uniforms during the battle as well.

Would they? While important to the Soul Reapers, their uniforms are not intrinsic to their being. High ranking Soul Reapers often carry accessories or customizations that are not standard, such as Renji's glasses/headband or Korraku's hat or Yamamoto's oversized haori or Kenpachi's tattered one. Nor is the appearance of the Soul Reaper exactly bound to the appearance of their physical body, as seen by the captains' tendency to wear time-appropriate clothing on their gigai. (Also, jokes have been made, at least in the anime, about swapping gigai to freak the newly spiritually blind Ichigo out.)

The Vizard, however, do not have any ties to the squads anymore, so they have no uniform to wear. As such, they dress their gigai in the same style they dress themselves. When they are given a uniform to wear again, they do so with pride.

Aizen explained this at the end of the rescue arc; Rukia's gigai was designed to drain all her spiritual power away (turning her into a Plus) so as to hide her soul, and within it Urahara's Hougyoku. Hers was a unique case and does not apply to the Visored because they had no Hougyokus of their own to hide.

The role of the Hougyoku makes that instance questionable, as that thing also triggered powers Orihime and Chad where none were previously evident. Either way, whether gigai can manage some kido is less the question than whether it can manage enough to be martially effective. Remember that Don Kanoji is capable of minor kido without any actual training, so a purely physical body isn't completely unable to do so.

Also, Urahara's use of disposable gigai as distractions in battle suggest that they aren't entirely incapable, though how much of their stunts is Urahara trickery and how much can be applied to more permanent, commercial products is unknown, which renders it largely ineffective as a point in this argument for either side.

[Psyren]

Would they? While important to the Soul Reapers, their uniforms are not intrinsic to their being. High ranking Soul Reapers often carry accessories or customizations that are not standard, such as Renji's glasses/headband or Korraku's hat or Yamamoto's oversized haori or Kenpachi's tattered one. Nor is the appearance of the Soul Reaper exactly bound to the appearance of their physical body, as seen by the captains' tendency to wear time-appropriate clothing on their gigai. (Also, jokes have been made, at least in the anime, about swapping gigai to freak the newly spiritually blind Ichigo out.)

Exactly - their gigai wear time-appropriate clothing, because their spirit forms can't. Matsumoto even complains about it while shopping (she can't bring the clothes back with her.)

And the accessories etc. are irrelevant, they still wear the shihakusho in spirit form regardless of what extras they adorn it with.

I agree that Rukia's gigai doesn't affect this discussion one way or the other - in fact, that's exactly what I was saying.

[Calemyr]

Exactly - their gigai wear time-appropriate clothing, because their spirit forms can't. Matsumoto even complains about it while shopping (she can't bring the clothes back with her.)

And the accessories etc. are irrelevant, they still wear the shihakusho in spirit form regardless of what extras they adorn it with.

I agree that Rukia's gigai doesn't affect this discussion one way or the other - in fact, that's exactly what I was saying.

Cool, we're on the same page one one place at least. Good to know.

But it's more than just accessories, they can and do make structural changes to their uniforms, such as Soi Fon's shoulderless getup. It may be what they are given when they become a Soul Reaper, but it isn't stated to be something they're permanently stuck in, either.

Of course, I have no idea which way Occam's Razor would cut here. Which is the simpler explanation: that Soul Reapers is always in uniform as long as they have power/not in bankai, or that Soul Reapers choose to wear their uniform out of status? You have to make some reaching assumptions either way.

[Frozen_Feet]

While the Shihakusho seems in someway intrinsic to Shinigami status (see how Ichigo's conjured it out of thin air thrice now) and clothes are explicitly part of your soul, we've also seen Shinigami swap clothes in their spirit forms, so they aren't a fixed part.

As for fighting in Gigai, casting of Kido seems possible at least. However, Ichigo, Rukia and most others don't have their Zanpakuto available in Gigai (Urahara & the Vizard might be an expection), which is sorta inconvenient. Also, I'd imagine walking through walls is more of a hassle with a physical body, and woe be the poor mortals who see them flying all around.

[Psyren]

All the sleeping mortals, you mean?

I'm still confused as to why (or even how) they would change clothes both in spirit form and in gigai.

[Frozen_Feet]

Step 1) Get out of Gigai.
Step 2) Change clothes of your spirit form.
Step 3) Step back into Gigai.
Step 4) Change clothes in Gigai.

I think the big problem (and what Matsumoto was referring to) is finding someone who makes modern casual clothes for spirits. Urahara might be the only candidate. I suppose a spirit could wear material clothes, but that would look really funky to mortals and they'd have to abandon them anyway to enter Gigai, meaning they'd be naked next time they got out...

[Calemyr]

All the sleeping mortals, you mean?

I'm still confused as to why (or even how) they would change clothes both in spirit form and in gigai.

They weren't sleeping when Grimjow attacked.

As for why they would, it seems simple to me. They aren't Soul Society any more. They were attacked, corrupted, saved, blamed for being corrupted, and then banished for something that was done to them.

They've spent a century isolated because some an arbitrary number of faceless autocrats treated them like villains rather than victims and ignored their warnings about who the villain truly was. When the battle for the pillars hit, neither the Yamamoto nor the Vizard really knew who they resented more, Yamamoto or Aizen. Their allegiance boiled down to being fellow allies of Ichigo.

The better question would be why they would continue to wear the black at all?

[Drolyt]

Would Newtonian physics affect spiritual beings?

I don't see why not, if what you mean by Newtonian Physics is Mechanics. Kido/Ninjutsu/Ki/Magic/whatever would just create arbitrary forces, the equations would still work. Though to be fair I'm taking this way out of context and I'm not actually sure what the context is, so maybe my response doesn't help anything?

[Psyren]

They weren't sleeping when Grimjow attacked.

They were when Aizen attacked though.

Regardless, there isn't enough proof on either side and Kubo likely won't be forthcoming, so we're all wasting our time on this. Let's agree to disagree.

[Haruspex_Pariah]

New Chapter (I think)

Spoiler

Show

Dead guy gets a decent eulogy from Byakuya. I guess you don't make vice captain without some substance (even though Ichigo pwned him the last time they fought). And everyone knew all along Harribel was alive after Aizen cut her. I didn't!

Urahara and Ichigo sneak into HM. Guess we'll get a better taste of their relative power levels next chapter.