OOTS #830 - The Discussion Thread

[Kondziu]

Looking once more through the strip I linked, there are precedents for not "shouting-out" the spell's name even for spells that have verbal components - goblin clerics are most likely using Inflict x Wounds to heal Xykon.

[EccentricFellow]

Well, all I can say here is ... Wow!

Hindsight is 20/20 and although I expected no real conflict beyond verbal between these two, Tsukiko certainly forced his hand with her serious delusions. She made the bed she is now lying in. Her death was pure irony, very nicely done Rich. Rest assured Tsukiko, your creations loved you as deeply as they could. *crunch*

Of course the sad part is here was a girl that went mad for the want of love and lost her life with her logic that if the living were pain and hate and the dead were the opposite of the living, then the dead must be love. There is a poignancy there that is not often reached and deserves some moments of consideration.

[Iranon]

That was... cathartic.

On a related note: While harsh, I didn't really read Redcloak's behaviour as vengeful or sadistic. No gloating, no levity, waiting with the order for the wights to clean up after themselves until Tsukiko was dead... just setting Tsukiko straight about her major misconceptions in a very blunt way.
Callousness, or the most fitting (and perhaps even dignified in a twisted) way to get this done with?

About controlling Xykon: Redcloak realises that his control is "subtle" and tenuous. But emotional baggage aside (which I fully expect to be a factor), Xykon is potentially a huge asset to the plan and going along with the grand scheme so far. Also, their history has shown that ditching him isn't an option.

[Jzadek]

I'm not sure that there's any doubt that Redcloak has been manipulating Xykon. The fact that Xykon doesn't know the true plan, and yet continues to advance it is pretty damning evidence.
Redcloak just finds someone he needs out the way, aims, and fires. That's not to say the Xykon's the most reliable gun out there, but he certainly isn't the one who does the firing.

[Forikroder]

i figured everyone knew redcloak was the one controlling Xykons actions since Azure city fell...

[AgentofOdd]

Two Wish scrolls, so 57,650 gp. Then there's material cost of True Resurrection, which is 25,000 gp (it may be possible you need to pay it twice). D20SRD doesn't say anything about casting Wish from scrolls, so there's no way to tell, but it probably doesn't matter.
If Xykon had 82,000-107,000 gp to spend, he would be more likely to throw a bit more to spend on a new phylactery already.

This page in D20SRD has the market price of scrolls. As for total price, Xykon really only needs one Wish scroll. After recreating Tsukiko's body he can pay a cleric to bring her back assuming he doesn't simply order Redcloak to do it, and that certainly wouldn't be as pricey as a True Resurrection. So worse case scenario: 1 Wish scroll 28,825, plus one Resurrection (I'm assuming ~12,275 since that's the cost of one of those scrolls) will total 41,100 GP.

Still, as you say it's rather pricey. But then Xykon really shouldn't remain ignorant of what the ritual does exactly. And of course, Tsukiko is the only true ally Xykon has; albeit insane in the Harley Quinn short of way.

[Alex Warlorn]

i figured everyone knew redcloak was the one controlling Xykons actions since Azure city fell...

He's manipulating Xykon. But control? That's just Redcloak's fantasy.

Redcloak's string of personal successes has given him a swelled head, he's made a fatal mistake by thinking of Xykon as no different from the undead he casually ordered to murder their mother.

[Skeletoff]

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So, when is Redcloak going to be devoured by MITD?

[Forikroder]

No, it needs to be presented. I'd argue simply keeping it on your neck doesn't count, and we have multiple examples (in strip) where characters remove their symbols to formally present them, while there is not even a single one of them simply keeping the symbol on neck, even in combat. Had it been possible to do it your way, dozens of strips would cease to make sense for character actions.

And, frankly, IMHO, seeing RC's rebuke/command is strong enough to banish positive energy spirits, Tsukiko should have noticed it, presenting issue notwithstanding. V going blind from it implies it's very noticeable, even. That ability suddenly turning into ninja wizard backstab of win sort of contradicts how it was shown to work in the entire comic run so far. Though, I'll withhold opinion to see if there isn't any sort of explanation later.



Eh, there's no need to shout martial attacks, I'd still argue there's need to mention spells/abilities including verbal component, unless modified in some way

V going "blind" happened really early in the comic and was purely for laughs like dwarves having flashlights built into there eyes they have to manually turn on for darkvision

He's manipulating Xykon. But control? That's just Redcloak's fantasy.

Redcloak's string of personal successes has given him a swelled head, he's made a fatal mistake by thinking of Xykon as no different from the undead he casually ordered to murder their mother.

aside fromr ecruiting the hobbos xykons done everything reds wanted him to do

[Gnoman]

This page in D20SRD has the market price of scrolls. As for total price, Xykon really only needs one Wish scroll. After recreating Tsukiko's body he can pay a cleric to bring her back assuming he doesn't simply order Redcloak to do it, and that certainly wouldn't be as pricey as a True Resurrection. So worse case scenario: 1 Wish scroll 28,825, plus one Resurrection (I'm assuming ~12,275 since that's the cost of one of those scrolls) will total 41,100 GP.

Still, as you say it's rather pricey. But then Xykon really shouldn't remain ignorant of what the ritual does exactly. And of course, Tsukiko is the only true ally Xykon has; albeit insane in the Harley Quinn short of way.

With scrolls, he would be fine at 34950. Raise Dead would work perfectly well.

[Gusion]

With scrolls, he would be fine at 34950. Raise Dead would work perfectly well.

In theory, sure. But it isn't exactly every magic store that has a Wish scroll sitting around. So I think the whole "use a scroll" thing is a bit out there.

[Doug Lampert]

she REALLY should have seen this coming considering how there first impressions went

note to self: dont use undead against an evil cleric

A level 5 cleric can cast desecrate, and then use Animate Dead (the weakest undead creation spell in existence) to animate a 20 HD undead with 40 bonus HP. That's the top of CR 8 even before you buff the HP and nominally more powerful than the cleric animating it.

And if we ignore for the moment the need for an appropriate skeleton it isn't even particularly expensive for him to do.

It takes a level 40 cleric to take those away from you.

Guess what, you're toast anyway if facing someone THIRTY FIVE levels higher than you are.

Don't STUPIDLY use unbuffed low HD undead against a higher level evil cleric is good advice, but created undead can be safe from any reasonable enemy.

The real risk is that if the healer goes down then not only have you lost (temporarily) the cleric, but the undead also go uncontrolled and presumably turn on the party mid-battle (whoops).

[Sundog]

OOtS has taken a bit of a dark turn lately. I like (I adore character development), but I hope there's plenty of the funny coming up too.

[Forikroder]

A level 5 cleric can cast desecrate, and then use Animate Dead (the weakest undead creation spell in existence) to animate a 20 HD undead with 40 bonus HP. That's the top of CR 8 even before you buff the HP and nominally more powerful than the cleric animating it.

And if we ignore for the moment the need for an appropriate skeleton it isn't even particularly expensive for him to do.

It takes a level 40 cleric to take those away from you.

Guess what, you're toast anyway if facing someone THIRTY FIVE levels higher than you are.

Don't STUPIDLY use unbuffed low HD undead against a higher level evil cleric is good advice, but created undead can be safe from any reasonable enemy.

The real risk is that if the healer goes down then not only have you lost (temporarily) the cleric, but the undead also go uncontrolled and presumably turn on the party mid-battle (whoops).

WOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

[Alex Warlorn]

V going "blind" happened really early in the comic and was purely for laughs like dwarves having flashlights built into there eyes they have to manually turn on for darkvision


aside fromr ecruiting the hobbos xykons done everything reds wanted him to do

Start Of Darkness has shown just how shrewd Xykon can actually be.

[AgentofOdd]

With scrolls, he would be fine at 34950. Raise Dead would work perfectly well.

That's true. I went conservative because I suspect Redcloak will be a little sneak and claim he doesn't know when Tsukiko died.

In theory, sure. But it isn't exactly every magic store that has a Wish scroll sitting around. So I think the whole "use a scroll" thing is a bit out there.

Well, we know the mother black dragon managed to get her hands on two soul bind scrolls so we can say with some confidence that Xykon could get his hands on a Wish scroll. Especially since Wish is way more useful and probably in higher demand then that necromancy spell.

[Lerky]

Redcloak is officially my favorite character now. That is all.

[ti'esar]

OOtS has taken a bit of a dark turn lately. I like (I adore character development), but I hope there's plenty of the funny coming up too.

Considering the focus on Redcloak, that's none too surprising - he's probably the single darkest character in the strip.

[Silva Stormrage]

Considering the focus on Redcloak, that's none too surprising - he's probably the single darkest character in the strip.

I think when Xykon gets serious he can beat out Redcloak in that department.

[Alex Warlorn]

What gives Xykon strength over Redcloak isn't just stats and levels.

Xykon knows he's selfish, he knows he's a murderer, Xykon knows he's become a sin against the gods, he knows his kingdom would be one built on dead bodies and fueled by dead bodies, he knows he's wholly horrid and the world would be better off without him. And he ACCEPTS AND EMBRACES HIMSELF. He does not fear the mirror.

Redcloak accepts and embraces he despises humans purely for their species. But I don't he accepts the real reasons he's following his master's plan now or why he acts the way he does. He still thinks he's the hero.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow! I didn't realize that she had so sorely underestimated Red Cloak. She basically forced a fatal confrontation. Red Cloak's understanding of the undead is, however, a little narrow. The lich is both cunning and dangerous.

"Don't confuse not caring with not knowing."

[Valyrian]

i figured everyone knew redcloak was the one controlling Xykons actions since Azure city fell...

Oh, and I thought Redcloak was the only one who believed this ...

aside fromr ecruiting the hobbos xykons done everything reds wanted him to do

Like letting him regenerate his eye? Even if there was once such a relationship between Xykon and Redcloak, these days are over.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Yeah, I thought there might be a relationship between them in that one ish where they were bothj about to be killed by the ghosts of the paladin guard, and xyk was telling reddy not to feel bad, they'd almost pulled it off. Then xyk hauled reddy's badly injured ass out of that at like warp 10 when he might have flown faster by himself, but that's history now.

BTW, no comments on how the last wight or whatever could eat 3 of his kind and tsukiko's remains? Nobody?

[Canarr]

Also, who is the old guy who got murdered? Close enough to Redcloak to Raise him I wonder?

First thing that came to mind here: the hobgoblin general who died in the courtyard when Miko blew up the castle by destroying the gate. I can see Redcloak raising him afterwards - possibly other dead hobgoblins as well - and keeping it secret from both Xykon and Tsukiko, to avoid them simply killing him again out of spite.

EDIT: That was a perfect ending for Tsukiko and for that storyline. I am in awe.

[luc258]

Redcloak may say there are subtle strings [plural] Xykon is dancing on, but the only string [singular] I see is his deception about what the ritual really does.
It is a pretty big one, which includes Xykon risking his existance without any chance to gain anything, but apart from that I don't see any "strings" Redcloak has on Xykon, subtle or otherwise.

[Grogmir]

As having read SoD, took me a while to realise what a big 'reveal' this is to those that haven't.

but yeah RC, not just a No.2 but the man with a plan.

However rereading SoD last night I was struck by one major development in RC, that means he might not be the same as before.

SoD Spoiler

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When Xycon draws Durkon out of his castle, he does it by threatening to get a zombie orge to devour the body of Lirian (also Zombie).

RCs reaction to this? "What... thats disgusting" "You're not going to actually go through with this are you?"

Cue a decade of so later and seems RC is willing to stoop to the same low levels.

[Sweet_Goddess]

With scrolls, he would be fine at 34950. Raise Dead would work perfectly well.

Nope, Raise Dead would be useless. Tsukiko died by negative levels from Wight attacks, she has no levels when she is raised, so she gasps and dies again immediately, wasting the raise dead.

In theory, sure. But it isn't exactly every magic store that has a Wish scroll sitting around. So I think the whole "use a scroll" thing is a bit out there.

Agreed, especially because each Wish Scroll wouldn't be a Scroll of Wishing, it would have to be a Scroll with a preselected Wish, since the XP cost and material components of Wish vary depending on what effects you wish, therefore the price to scribe a scroll would vary and those same components would be needed, therefore the scroll's inscribing time and cost would vary.

That's true. I went conservative because I suspect Redcloak will be a little sneak and claim he doesn't know when Tsukiko died.Well, we know the mother black dragon managed to get her hands on two soul bind scrolls so we can say with some confidence that Xykon could get his hands on a Wish scroll. Especially since Wish is way more useful and probably in higher demand then that necromancy spell.

Yes, higher demand, therefore lower supply, especially due to the points I made above about the required specificity of making a Wish Scroll... so a Wish for Party Healing Scroll might be common enough to buy one or two, but a Wish for Tsukiko's body to be rebuilt from the ether Scroll, and a Wish for Tsukiko's negative levels to be restored Scroll are going to be essentially nonexistent and at that point it would be cheaper for Xykon to level, swap a 9th Level Spell for Wish, and come up with the material components for those Wishes. Heck, frankly, I'd think it would be the smart move for Xykon to swap a 9th level spell for Wish.

Has anyone noted all the Spells Xykon has ever used? Wish and Time Stop are generally the two big ones to definitely have, especially since a 20th Level Sorcerer only gets 3 9th level spells (Yes, I know Xykon is Epic, but I only have easy access to 20th level info, so, but even assuming he has 9 Level 9 spells, since 9 is the maximum spells of any level a Sorcerer can know, then that is still 9/24 9th level spells... and we know one of his Epic Slots was taken by learning Cloister, plus he most likely is saving a slot to learn the Arcane Half of the Ritual)?

[Kish]

Nope, Raise Dead would be useless. Tsukiko died by negative levels from Wight attacks, she has no levels when she is raised,

There is no indication either that the "negative levels" debuff persists through death, nor that it causes any problems with any manner of resurrection. Arguing that the stack of negative levels will interact differently with different resurrection spells is actually even harder to support than toughluck's argument that negative levels are, unhinted at in the D&D books, a more effective way of preventing resurrection than Soul Bind.

[Iranon]

Like letting him regenerate his eye? Even if there was once such a relationship between Xykon and Redcloak, these days are over.

There are more important things than a second eye, that's more a symbol than anything else.
Xykon goes for brute force, whether he's applying his magic or his social skills. He's GOOD at raw force and cruelty, but Redcloak chooses not to play his game about posturing and asserting dominance. He is willing to appear cowed, and to some extent BE cowed.

The setup looks analogous to ongoing domestic abuse... but from what we know about their personalities and capabilities, one where the abusive party is likely meet a messy end. In this case, one that has been planned for decades.

And while Xykon acknowledges being Evil with no need for excuses, Redcloak isn't just willing to risk his existence, pride and overall well-being... he's willing to sacrifice them all for what he thinks is the greater good.
In raw attitude and mental fortitude beyond stats and levels, Redcloak is a lot more understated than Xykon but I wouldn't put him second.

[toughluck]

So worse case scenario: 1 Wish scroll 28,825, plus one Resurrection (I'm assuming ~12,275 since that's the cost of one of those scrolls) will total 41,100 GP.

Still, as you say it's rather pricey. But then Xykon really shouldn't remain ignorant of what the ritual does exactly. And of course, Tsukiko is the only true ally Xykon has; albeit insane in the Harley Quinn short of way.

If they had money, as everybody assumes was left in Azure City's coffers and vaults, Xykon would have just as well created a new phylactery, or would have at least started it. Of course, it's just as likely that Xykon has been creating one behind Redcloak's back in order to lead him to believe he's still in control of it.