World of Warcraft XIII: Even Aspects Get Nerfed

[Dublock]

I would like to see some discussion here about Vodka, one of the best guilds in the US and what they did recently. I spoiled it cause its a bit long and not everyone wants to see it I am sure.

Spoiler

Show

Link to what I am bringing up (and more discussion, plus video)
http://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments...ns_with_video/

Basically the guild has used an exploit to steal a tag of Gall (the rare World boss) from their own side using shamens, get the tag themselves, get the kill and thne make it impossible for people to use the BMAH, even their own side.

My reaction: Egos tend to make people jerks. I am not shocked by this, but I would like to see some sort of response. Either by Blizzard or by their sponsor(s?). I know blizzard doesn't normally publicly state punishments, and that is a good policy, but if they cacn say like "A few members of Vodka has been punished." or something to give us indication that just because you are one of the best does not mean you are above the rules.

Now, Blizzard could be working towards that and we could be expecting it to soon, but so far, I don't think that is the case. I am not familiar with Razor, thier sponsor so I don't know how quickly they can respond or even if they will.

Ultimately I don't know if the amount of attention given is enough to warrant a statement from Blizzard or their sponsors. But I hope they will take action, Blizzard with bans (using their pre-established system) and not sure what their Sponsors do, pulling out might be extreme, but a warning would be nice.

[Zherog]

what's BMAH?

[Dublock]

what's BMAH?

Black Market Auction House.

Its by the Black Prince that you can access where various NPCs put up (BoP) items, mounts, and other vanity things for a min bid of 10k that can go up to gold cap. Items vary from current heroic gear (the source of the incident with Vodka), to old tier sets, to Swift White Hawkstrider, to White Kitten.

Anyone can bid on those items and win, it was designed for a possible world pvp.

[Mutant Sheep]

It's an interesting system, and it IS a way to try and get some gold out of the player market. When the begging level 8's are handed a thousand gold, there is just too much cash going around.

[Karoht]

@BMAH
It's not a bad system. Some items have a really poor drop chance, like certain mounts. My fiance is living proof that no matter how hard you work at something, the RNG factor can still utterly deny you. We were in Zul'Gurub every lockout since late BC (twice a week), we managed to never miss a single lockout. How many mounts dropped for us out of the possible 2? Zero. This was all the way from late Sunwell all the way to Cataclysm. Not one. No Zulian Tiger, no Raptor.
But lets take Deathwing. We saw his normal mode mount all of twice. And we were killing Deathwing pretty much every lockout until we downed him on Heroic.
It's situations like this which have caused me to not really be interested in any mount that now has a drop chance. I will focus my time on things I can look forward in time and say "by approximately this time I have a reasonable chance to own X."
The BMAH does this with a host of items, but the drop chance mounts and pets means that at some point in the future, someone can actually do the 'work' and get the gold and win one of these types of items.

Lets take Illidan's Legendary Blades of Azzinoth for a moment. Is it a sign of skill that someone has them? No. It is a sign of luck that they dropped and you won the loot roll. Same with Ashes of A'lar, or the White Hawkstrider, along with a host of others. So now, if I can put my nose to the grindstone and make enough gold, I can EARN one of those mounts rather than trying to win a lottery every lockout.

@Vodka/Exploits
Blizzard probably won't tell us the full extent of any action, but I assure you they are probably looking at it really closely. Recall the Paragon bans back in LFR Dragon Soul? This is quite a bit more serious.
As someone who knows a thing or two about sponsors, I can guarantee you that their sponsors are in contact with them, probably telling them to tone it down and not be caught doing something like that again. I can assure you that Paragon's sponsors threatened to pull out on them over the LFR Dragon Soul issue.

[Psyren]

So I found what seems like a very helpful Blood DK tanking guide on Icy-Veins, current as of patch 5.0.5. I won't be able to test its advice until tonight but it seems very promising.

I can't link it from here but you should be able to find it on google if you want to check it out. I didn't know if anyone else had a DK they wanted to try tanking on but I thought I'd share the infos just in case.

The sheer number of survivability cooldowns DKs have is staggering. I know it's necessary since their defenses are largely binary (i.e. either you dodge/parry a hit or you don't - there's very little passive mitigation to speak of) which leads to lots of spikes. Add to that the fact that their main heal (Death Strike) heals more when they take damage and I'm beginning to understand why healing Blood DK tanks in Cata used to give me heart failure.

Antimagic Shell, Icebound Fortitude, Dancing Rune Weapon, Army of the Dead, Bone Shield, Rune Tap, Vampiric Blood, Empower Rune Weapon, Lichborne/Purgatory, and Death Pact - lots of moving parts. Thankfully I don't have them all yet...

[The_Jackal]

This really is a big misconception. DKs have EXCELLENT passive mitigation, as good as any other tank class. Blood Presence offers 10% global damage reduction, +25% health and +55% armour, plenty enough to bring them in line with a shield-wearing warrior.

[Dublock]

This really is a big misconception. DKs have EXCELLENT passive mitigation, as good as any other tank class. Blood Presence offers 10% global damage reduction, +25% health and +55% armour, plenty enough to bring them in line with a shield-wearing warrior.

Then why does it feel like they are spikey compared to every other tank? Cause thats how it feels like, more so when its not a great DK. Which I contributed to not using all those Cds or improper timing, but that won't be the case if they have good passive mitigation, so I am curious.

[Shishnarfne]

Then why does it feel like they are spikey compared to every other tank? Cause thats how it feels like, more so when its not a great DK. Which I contributed to not using all those Cds or improper timing, but that won't be the case if they have good passive mitigation, so I am curious.

As someone who raids on a blood DK, I think I should provide my 2 cents.

First off, DK health is spikier in part due to a lack of a block mechanic (unlike shield tanks), and we don't have the short cooldown extra dodge that bears do.

On a shield tank, the blocks reduce the damage of many melee swings, meaning that the tank doesn't have as many big chunks of damage.

Also, a good DK will spike right back up with good timing on Death Strike (it scales with damage in the past 5 seconds), healing back much of the damage spike.

Death Knight tanking has, since 4.0, been based around active mitigation: Death Strike to heal back damage and Blood Shield to reduce the next hit.

Good usage of tanking cooldowns goes a long way, too.

The big thing with healing a DK is to finish your current cast before deciding that they need a panic heal, instead of a more normal heal. Oh yeah, and having one good enough to help effectively.

[Psyren]

This really is a big misconception. DKs have EXCELLENT passive mitigation, as good as any other tank class. Blood Presence offers 10% global damage reduction, +25% health and +55% armour, plenty enough to bring them in line with a shield-wearing warrior.

It's not that they're squishy - just that the incoming damage can be less predictable, moreso if you miss or mistime a cooldown. As Shish said, I have the tools to spike right back up (Death Pact is amazing) but without any Blood Shields I definitely feel the pain on a big pull.

[Karoht]

If you want to know the reason why they are spikey, it's very simple.

Good DK's are a lot less spikey. They still can be spikey, but if they are any good at what they do, you will notice them to be less spikey. People often mistake the less spikey DK's as having better gear, typically this is not the case.

Another reason is gemming/reforging. Back in DS, if a DK specced for mastery they would take a hit well, but they would avoid almost none of them. We had this issue with one of our tanks. Once we had him even things out a bit, he was no more spikey than our Prot Pally. The same largely applies today.

Finally, many DK's hold back their cooldowns and wait for direction on when to use them. Cooldowns are ment to be timed, yes, but they are also meant to be rotated, this goes for just about any tank you come across.


Raid Update:
Joined a pug, got Stone Guardians down, spent quite a while on Feng but got no where. Not bad for an easy monday night.


EDIT:
So GW2 copied DW with their big bad dragon Zhaitan, with the chief difference being that Zhaitan is purple. When called on it years ago they said it was merely artistic coincidence. Their artistic director played dumb, as though she had never seen Deathwing before, despite the Cata launch trailer having been out for months before their reveal of Zhaitan, and the noted attention that the GW2 team paid to World of Warcraft.
Their halloween event is set to launch a new bad guy called the Lord of Thorns.
His face is the Headless Horsemans's helmet, only red instead of green.
Artistic coincidence my arse.

[Krazzman]

Talking about spiky things?

Our Guardian Druid rerolled for Tank-Monk. I don't know if it is because of that but at elegon after the draw power phase he... sort of died because of the Adds that spawn in P3.
To add a bit more why elegon wasn't slain yesterday:
The evening was quite good. Trash was efficiently killed, we got a rnd drop Trinket in the Respawn and our Mage was overjoyed.
Then it began. Elegon. First try we die because 3rd Protector comes right at the start of p2. Our Warrior seems to make quite low DMG but I was ensured he is working on it. Got the Awesome feeling of seeing a short burst one ~130k dps... for about 5 seconds. With time we got to P3 better. With better I mean Draw Power wasn't completed until his 4th casting, some times even at a 5th time. (Note this gives a 10% stackable more damage getting debuff on elegon for every draw power). But sadly we died again due to adds.
Finally we give up because one healer gets stomach cramps and well we only had 1 or 2 tries left anyway and never have we seen p2.2.

I don't really look at the healmeter but! The Monk seems to suffer from unskilled players. He looked like he would've liked to devour the damage he got... p3 begins and he was never ever seen again over 50% life or if then for a few miliseconds.

[Traab]

So, i rolled a new panda character, specifically so I could see what the horde greeting was. Am I alone in thinking the whole garrosh/run to arena/run back to garrosh setup was annoying? The actual arena battle was pretty cool, I just hated the fact that my mountless panda had to run about as far away from grommash stronghold as you could get and still be in orgrimmar, then run right back to grommash again. Look, my panda is a great fighter and all, but he is portly. Expecting him to do laps around a city without a mount is just mean.

[Dublock]

@Blood DKs

Makes sense, so it is player skill and some gear, good to know. So I still rather not get a random Blood DK in LFG/LFR cause who knows about skill level in there (or gear lol)

@I finally got a stupid 463 healing trinket. So all my gear is 463 or higher except my wrist, which is 458, still trying to get that from Ook-Ook. I have 467 ilvl, with my tier legs, boots from Sha quest, and a back from LFR being the higher ones (and according to my memory lol). I also have yet to do LFR this week, so I might get something (come on 2pc lol) or the Sha.

@At my glorious 5 week plan. So I am really behind on my leveling. Oh well. BUT I almost have 7 different professions maxed out, I almost have cooking maxed out as well. I have not touched fishing yet, or the Anglers rep.

I also have not gotten exalted with any faction yet -.- Busy, plus there are only so many says straight when I can do a set of dailies.

[Karoht]

@Traab
So Garrosh was testing you. Sounds about right. Besides, no one ever said Garrosh was a nice guy.
Check out some of the spoilers on mmo-champion.com if you don't believe me.

Spoiler

Show

I think he kills Anduin Wrynn, Vol'Jin is wounded but disappears, and it sounds like he does something even worse than the destruction of Theramoore. On top of his already colorful history.

@Dub
I don't fear specific classes in LFG/LFR. I'm would be more worried about healers lately.
I've been in LFR, hit 2nd and 1st on the meter for every encounter, and that was with the worst possible gear to enter LFR. The other day we did Stone Guardians, there was a Paladin healer with mostly LFR gear and some others from Galeon and Sha and BoE's, he was dead last the entire night and begging me for Innervates.
So I topped the meters, without having access to my main mana cooldown, when mana management is as tight as it is. That should scare people.
Oh, and I ranked. lols.

@Professions
I just need to get my Enchanter/Tailor alt to 90 and get her revered with August Celestials. Then my best money makers come on line. Leg enchants.
Also, now that I have a reliable source of Spirit of Harmony, namely from my farm, Leatherworking to make leg enchants has become quite a solid source of income already.

My fiance and I are working out a trade arrangement. I pay half the cost of an Orb of Mystery and give her Living Steel, she provides the rest of the mats and makes me panther mounts. I sell them, we split the profits. We are reliably at that point. Woot.

[Psyren]

@Traab
So Garrosh was testing you. Sounds about right. Besides, no one ever said Garrosh was a nice guy.
Check out some of the spoilers on mmo-champion.com if you don't believe me.

Spoiler

Show

I think he kills Anduin Wrynn, Vol'Jin is wounded but disappears, and it sounds like he does something even worse than the destruction of Theramoore. On top of his already colorful history.

I play Alliance usually, but I still have to ask: why does Horde get all the d-bags? First Sylvanas now this. You'll never see Velen peeing all over Darnassus, or Wrynn ganking Tyrande in an arena, or anything else like that on Alliance.

[Karoht]

I play Alliance usually, but I still have to ask: why does Horde get all the d-bags? First Sylvanas now this. You'll never see Velen peeing all over Darnassus, or Wrynn ganking Tyrande in an arena, or anything else like that on Alliance.

Because whenever we got good guys, people (re: vocal minority/majority) whined.

And Wrynn was a D-bag for a while. But he's had character progression, and actually improved rather well.

Spoiler

Show

Wrynn used to whine about how he was turned into a legendary gladiator where people cheered for him for all of maybe a week or two, and in some cases nearly turned violent about it, when Thrall was forced into it from childhood, was booed and hated and NOT cheered for, for a period of years rather than weeks, and violently beaten within an inch of his life the one time he lost.
Wrynn's life was so hard and he suffered so much OMGBBQ!!!

Personally, if I'm ever a prisoner of war, I hope I have it half as good as Wrynn had it.

[Psyren]

But Wrynn doesn't come close to the jerkassery Garrosh has pulled off. Cairne alone proves that, never mind the stuff in your spoiler. Wrynn's a little too unwilling to cooperate with Horde when he needs to, but at least he lets his allies temper that confrontational aspect. Garrosh is running roughshod over the Horde, and you'd need Willy Wonka's whole factory to contain the "fudges" that Sylvanas does not give.

I refuse to believe it was simply Blizzard bowing to pressure; no, they're making Horde the villains because they're catering to the lowest common denominator, and gray morality is hard

[Karoht]

But Wrynn doesn't come close to the jerkassery Garrosh has pulled off. Cairne alone proves that, never mind the stuff in your spoiler. Wrynn's a little too unwilling to cooperate with Horde when he needs to, but at least he lets his allies temper that confrontational aspect. Garrosh is running roughshod over the Horde, and you'd need Willy Wonka's whole factory to contain the "fudges" that Sylvanas does not give.

I refuse to believe it was simply Blizzard bowing to pressure; no, they're making Horde the villains because they're catering to the lowest common denominator, and gray morality is hard

One more time, for all the people who have it backwards. Just in case.

Spoiler

Show

Cairne. Challenged. Garrosh.
Magatha. Poisoned. The Blade.

Your point still stands though.

Indeed, I think Blizzard is catering to the vocal group that cries on the forums any time Thrall does anything that remotely resembles a non-bad action. Let alone when he saves the world.
Heck, I'm surprised that the vocal group didn't make more noise about Saurfang asking to collect the body of his son. And they did make noise about it, some outliers going so far as to suggest that Wrynn should have desecrated the corpse, but those were the outliers and not the norm.

Grey morality is what they tried to go for. People wanted 'the good ole days' back where the bad guys were bad, the good guys were good. Pre-Cataclysm, the grey morality was sort of working. Post-Cataclysm, the Horde are badguys again.

It's a shame. I really loved Grom Hellscream, especially when he applied his cunning and tactics. I would have greatly enjoyed seeing him apply himself towards an actual cause. I would have been especially proud of his son had Garrosh applied that brutality and cunning towards a proper cause, such as fighting the Legion or the Lich King or Deathwing or just about anything else, rather than fighting the Alliance. The kind of cause were one could be proud of his success, rather than ashamed of it. Sure, he succeeded brilliantly in Theramoore, wiping out an entire armada of ships, and quite a few important figures in the Alliance. Sure, he certainly "pwned those Alliance noobz" and such, who walked right into the trap. That doesn't mean I'm proud of that success. I wish it was a success that the Horde could be proud of, and the Alliance could admire or respect, even if it were only just a little. That, is the 'glory days' of the Horde I wish we would return to.

But hey, times they-be-a-changing, and Garrosh will one day be gone.
I still hope that maybe, just maybe, Garrosh might win us one last victory, the kind that we can all be proud of, before he goes. Just one. Just so his dad won't be completely ashamed of him. Just one.

I wish the Son of Hellscream was even half the man that the Son of Saurfang was. Or the Son of Cairne. Or the Son of Wrynn.

[Dublock]

@ Karoht

Yea, but the few times I have done LFR, I have been paired with 2 other good healers and at that point it was pretty easy, once I was ranked 5th in healing, at the time with 462ish ilvl...and I was not going easy either. Which proves two things 1) Raid was damn lucky that we had 6 healers (last heals wasn't to far below me) and 2) That the raid needed all that healing -.-

So I guess I am in the whole "RNG has blessed me with good fellow healers" at least 2 other competent heals. But yea...LFR can always be an interesting experience.

@profs, my mage is my tailor...and he is half way to level 86. Damn. By the time DMF rolls around, I think I can get 20 something cards which I will then try to one deck as a healing trinket then sell the rest to make some money. Thats assuming that RNG gives me a few cards I need, if not I will sell all of them and pocket the gold.

Oh and my one wish for this expack...(spoiler for end of MoP if you managed to avoid it thus far)

Spoiler

Show

I don't care (ok, not true, but it is in comparison) what else happens, I REALLY want Vol'Jin to get the killing blow on Garrosh. That would make me sit back, smile greatly and haven't been as happy with the game since I killed Arthas, the villain that brought me into the Warcraft universe.

Which reminds me, if I have not mentioned this story, I will now about my ex-fiancee.

She isn't big into organized groups, she likes professions and quests (got Lore Master pre-Cata), whe likes her few mounts/pets. But when I told her that the final raid was Garrosh, she turned to me and with such...venom I was not expecting she said "I want to kill him. I want to get geared and kill that *insert a few words* Promise me you will help make sure I am geared enough and know the fights because I will kill him."

I was not expecting such strong reaction from her. It helps that her two favorite NPCs are Sylvanas and Cain. She blames Garrosh for Cain's death because if he wasn't such an...idoit? Jerk? Cain would not feel like he would have to challenge him for the leadership. Which its hard to argue against that logic, and lets face it, I want Garrosh dead too (By Vol'Jin).

[Karoht]

If she wants to blame someone for Cairne's death, blame Magatha Grimtotem.
Without her poisoning Garrosh's blade (clarification: Garrosh had no idea), Cairne was winning, and likely would have killed him, and ended up as the new Warchief.
I was very sad that we didn't succeed in capturing or killing Magatha. I'm waiting for her to make some kind of return soon. Probably in relation to the final events of this expansion.
Also...

Spoiler

Show

Garrosh paid off a Grimtotem tribe in Tides of War. It might be relevant towards him locating Magatha and seeking her aid. Or, he might go join up with her after we kick him out of Orgrimmar.
Or... and this is tinfoil hat time folks...
We know that Garrosh has something to do with the Dark Shaman in Ragefire Chasm. We know he has Dark Shaman employed to do terrible things like summon up Magma Giants and Krakken. We know that Magatha is still loyal to the Old Gods...
What if...
Garrosh joins up with Magatha in a deal to put him back in charge of the Horde? In exchange for her Clan's support, he uses his Dark Shaman to help dredge up N'zoth and the Naga from the sea?
Or worse... much worse...
The Tomb of Sargaras

[Gryffon]

Spoiler

Show

Garrosh paid off a Grimtotem tribe in Tides of War. It might be relevant towards him locating Magatha and seeking her aid. Or, he might go join up with her after we kick him out of Orgrimmar.
Or... and this is tinfoil hat time folks...
We know that Garrosh has something to do with the Dark Shaman in Ragefire Chasm. We know he has Dark Shaman employed to do terrible things like summon up Magma Giants and Krakken. We know that Magatha is still loyal to the Old Gods...
What if...
Garrosh joins up with Magatha in a deal to put him back in charge of the Horde? In exchange for her Clan's support, he uses his Dark Shaman to help dredge up N'zoth and the Naga from the sea?
Or worse... much worse...
The Tomb of Sargaras

Spoiler

Show

How do we know he has something to do with the Dark Shaman in Ragefire? I may have missed this somewhere.

[Karoht]

Spoiler

Show

How do we know he has something to do with the Dark Shaman in Ragefire? I may have missed this somewhere.

Non-spoiler answer: www.wowpedia.org
spoiler answer

Spoiler

Show

It also stands to reason. He has them in his employ as of the book Tides of War. The book is rather explicit in this regard. Ragefire is under his city, it stands to reason that he's under Garrosh's employ.
And I think the quest giver who suggests you kill the Dark Shaman kinda sorta implies it. I haven't been in there since Beta when they revamped it so my memory is a touch spotty.

[Gryffon]

Non-spoiler answer: www.wowpedia.org
spoiler answer

Spoiler

Show

It also stands to reason. He has them in his employ as of the book Tides of War. The book is rather explicit in this regard. Ragefire is under his city, it stands to reason that he's under Garrosh's employ.
And I think the quest giver who suggests you kill the Dark Shaman kinda sorta implies it. I haven't been in there since Beta when they revamped it so my memory is a touch spotty.

I'll have to look at it when I get home today.

I am kinda sad that his final fate is going this way. Stonetalon Garrosh was amazing. I think Blizz may have just burned too many bridges for the character, and the fanbase wasn't willing to go with it. But at the same time, they've done a good job of making people hate him.

[Traab]

I always thought of sylvanis as the really grey leader. She uses horrible bio weapons of terror in her attacks, yes, but she is basically doing all this to create her nation of intelligent zombies and keep the population up. I liked how in the early levels, we get to see that yes, the forsaken do have free will, as some reject her, some deny reality, and some accept becoming forsaken. We see it even more when she gets betrayed in silverpine. Its an interesting dynamic really. Unlike every other race, hers cant reproduce by snoo snoo. She has to raise the dead and convince them to join her.

Personally, im waiting on her to get annoyed enough to stab garrosh in the face and get it over with. I hate that guy so freaking much. Pretty much the only moment of awesome he has is in stonetalon, the rest of the time he is a puppy kicking, ally estranging, ass of the highest caliber. Seriously, he spends almost as much time pissing off everyone on his side as he does attacking the alliance. But he has a major hard on of hatred for sylvanis.

[Karoht]

I'll have to look at it when I get home today.

I am kinda sad that his final fate is going this way. Stonetalon Garrosh was amazing. I think Blizz may have just burned too many bridges for the character, and the fanbase wasn't willing to go with it. But at the same time, they've done a good job of making people hate him.

He is what the story needed.
That jerk that everyone loves to hate.
The unjust "evil" guy that everyone wants to destroy.
I have high hopes for whatever goes down next.
And patch 5.1 is looking frikken amazing.


@Wrynn
At least he grew to understand that not all orcs are evil or deserve to die. He even empathised a bit with the Tauren who are essentially press-ganged into service currently (seriously, read Tides of War). That was a big deal for him.

[Psyren]

One more time, for all the people who have it backwards. Just in case.

Spoiler

Show

Cairne. Challenged. Garrosh.
Magatha. Poisoned. The Blade.

Your point still stands though.

And This. Is. Sparta.

Both your points are irrelevant. Yes, Cairne challenged Garrosh, but the latter insisted it be to the death. Yes, Magatha's poison tipped the odds, but the contest was lethal even without it; Cairne died not from the poison, but from being decapitated by Gorehowl. Thrall would have pulled that final blow.

Furthermore, Garrosh didn't even try diplomacy when Cairne (mistakenly as it turned out) challenged him. Not even an attempt to find out what Cairne was talking about and discovering he'd been framed. (If he was even framed, that is, which your more recent spoilers throw into doubt, but don't really contradict my assessment of Garrosh as a jerk.)

Grey morality is what they tried to go for. People wanted 'the good ole days' back where the bad guys were bad, the good guys were good. Pre-Cataclysm, the grey morality was sort of working. Post-Cataclysm, the Horde are badguys again.

"People" is a weasel-word; you keep citing these nebulous "people" as though Blizzard was helplessly held in thrall to their wishes. Who, and how many? There was no forum vote on this stuff - the writers are ultimately responsible for what gets made lore and what doesn't. I highly doubt a majority, or even a very vocal minority, wanted Thrall removed as Warchief and Cairne to die in such ignominious fashion. At some point, the buck for such contrivances does indeed stop with Blizzard.

[The Linker]

"Raid groups are no longer necessary to enter pre-Mists of Pandara raid dungeons."

This is the single greatest patch note I have ever read.

I'm so happy.

[Zherog]

Oooh, coolness!

[The Glyphstone]

And This. Is. Sparta.

Both your points are irrelevant. Yes, Cairne challenged Garrosh, but the latter insisted it be to the death. Yes, Magatha's poison tipped the odds, but the contest was lethal even without it; Cairne died not from the poison, but from being decapitated by Gorehowl. Thrall would have pulled that final blow.

Furthermore, Garrosh didn't even try diplomacy when Cairne (mistakenly as it turned out) challenged him. Not even an attempt to find out what Cairne was talking about and discovering he'd been framed. (If he was even framed, that is, which your more recent spoilers throw into doubt, but don't really contradict my assessment of Garrosh as a jerk.)

Of course the poison didn't kill him. It paralyzed him. If he hadn't been poisoned, he would have won the fight.