Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[RMS Oceanic]

I always assumed "Core" to mean Everything released to the SRD, which would include rules for Epic characters and Psionics.

[Dark Matter]

I would just say to put "Unspecified item that grants fire immunity or resistance".

That's a good solution.

Improved Spell Capacity is not a core feat. It is from the Epic Level Handbook, which is decidedly non-core.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats...dSpellCapacity

Admittedly I'm trusting the author of that website to know a lot more than I do about what's "open source" and what isn't, but that's not a high bar.

Furthermore, if Xykon is level 27, then we need to explain how Durkon manages to dispel the Greater Invisibility he cast on the dragon. The most common explanation I've seen here is "Xykon used a scroll to cast it, even though it's on his class list", but then we are assuming an unseen magical item again.

Possibility 1) Durkon rolled a natural 20.
Possibility 2) X used a scroll.

And there's a serious problem with that spell's known list, it comes from OChul, not Rich. OChul was at the battle were we saw Xykon use (but not cast) Greater Invis. His source for thinking Xykon has that spell could be on screen, not off screen. Further we've seen Xykon cast Invisibility in SoD, it's a little odd that he would have both, and it's also odd that he'd use Invisibility right before engaging in battle (as opposed to greater Invis).

And finally, the "12th level spell slot" theory overlooks how Xykon is able to cast Still Meteor Swarm while grappled, because by the rules the only way he can do that is using Sudden Still (because Still Spell requires a full-round action and Sudden Still does not).

He didn't say "Sudden Still", he said "Still". Further that Still doesn't work well for Sorcerers is fairly obscure.

So it's not really the simplest explanation if you look at all the evidence.

The alternative solution is as follows:
Issue: Still M-Swarm
Explanation: Sudden Still
Problems:
1) He didn't say "Sudden Still".
2) Non-core elements are rare and normally mentioned.

Issue: Still M-Swarm
Explanation: Sudden Maximize
1) He didn't say "Sudden Maximize".
2) Non-core elements are rare and normally mentioned.
3) Xykon has normal Maximize since he used it later that scene.
4) There was no difference between his invocations of the two Max's.

Issue: Superb Dispelling, a DC 59 spell craft roll.
Explanation: ???

Please explain how he casts this.

[Psyren]

Issue: Superb Dispelling, a DC 59 spell craft roll.
Explanation: ???

Please explain how he casts this.

Since epic spells must be built from scratch, and even the ELH states that you can change the parameters of any of the pre-existing epic spells without changing their names (ELH pg. 88), we can't assume that Xykon's Superb Dispelling is a DC 59 spellcraft check merely because he says "superb dispelling," or even that he has no other mitigation built into the spell beyond the ones listed in its default entry (e.g. a focus.)

[Dark Matter]

I also want to open another can that (as it seems) has not been touched yet: Meteor Swarm also does Bludgeoning damage in addition to the fire damage. Xykon clearly got hit by the meteors, no?

He didn't cast MS on himself. Xykon cast the Meteor Swarm on V's Force-Hand, so the bludgeoning damage was attached to that.

RE: Xykon being at level 23+
There's no point. The evidence for him having epic crafting, of any sort, is still pretty thin. If he can get close immunity to Meteor Swarm with a non-epic item (greater ring of energy resistance for example) then we should stay with "a crafting feat" and not "an epic crafting feat". Each MS sphere is soaked separately (see below), so a greater ring would be close enough for trash talk.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meteorSwarm.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...ergyResistance

Since epic spells must be built from scratch...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...Dispelling.htm

We have never seen core spells be defined as something other than the book, and it would have been easy enough to say "Epic Dispel".

[Claudius Maximus]

Perhaps Xykon targeted the hand with the bludgeoning damage.

Anyway, Improved Spell Capacity is core, and can be found on page 210 of the Dungeon Master's Guide.

[Douglas]

Whether it is technically core or not, the Epic Level Handbook might as well be core with regard to any epic level character because it is not possible to build such a character without using it.

[Ancalagon]

I always assumed "Core" to mean Everything released to the SRD, which would include rules for Epic characters and Psionics.

I very strongly agree here. Even if the Epic Level Handbook is strictly speaking not Core, we should make an exception for it. There are no other rules for epic characters and Rich has based some things on the SRD-Epic Rules, so they are "as Core as they can get".

Either we accept that or we run into a very massive problem not to be able to base anything possibly epic on at least some common ground. This thread needs an accepted, common ground and accepting the SRD-Epic stuff as "Basically Core" is the only thing that stands between an ordered discussion and anarchy.

[Flame of Anor]

I very strongly agree here. Even if the Epic Level Handbook is strictly speaking not Core, we should make an exception for it. There are no other rules for epic characters and Rich has based some things on the SRD-Epic Rules, so they are "as Core as they can get".

Either we accept that or we run into a very massive problem not to be able to base anything possibly epic on at least some common ground. This thread needs an accepted, common ground and accepting the SRD-Epic stuff as "Basically Core" is the only thing that stands between an ordered discussion and anarchy.

I agree. With an epic-level main character, you just have to have the ELH in regular usage.

[Once&FutureKing]

One explanation is simple and obvious; we take what Xykon can do at face value without wacky assumptions. This fits with the context of the story/scenes, as well as the overwhelming precedent for characters.

{Scrubbed}

If we use the latter form of argumentation/logic, then we could put a disputed tag on almost every single estimate we have. Belkar most certainly wouldn't be at 16th level for instance, because the evidence is far weaker than for Xykon's level. O'Chul wouldn't be regarded as having many hit points, because he could have had invisible magic armour. Thog isn't that strong, because he could have had magic items on him that boosted his strength. V isn't really an evoker because s/he lied about it, and has been using obscure items and feats to get around it (boy will everyone be surprised when V conjures soon!). Hey, it's possible.

I can see no sense in this form of argument.

[Wolfe]

People tend to overlook this, but Improved Spell Capacity is not a core feat. It is from the Epic Level Handbook, which is decidedly non-core.

Consensus seems to be that anything in the SRD counts as "core", so Improved Spell Capacity remains as the main core explanation. It certainly is core enough for me.

The most common explanation I've seen here is "Xykon used a scroll to cast it, even though it's on his class list", but then we are assuming an unseen magical item again.

Assuming a sorcerer has used a low level scroll in preparation for a major battle is trivial. I have no objections to making that assumption, especially if the alternative (Durkon confidently rolled a 20, or Xykon is low level) is so improbable. The other possibility is that Redcloak cast it on him.

And finally, the "12th level spell slot" theory overlooks how Xykon is able to cast Still Meteor Swarm while grappled

I remember someone saying that Xykon's lack of a familiar would explain that; that somehow he swapped the familiar for the ability to use metamagic like a wizard... but I'm not familiar enough with that rule to say one way or another. Does anyone have a link to this rule?

[Chronos]

One explanation is simple and obvious; we take what Xykon can do at face value without wacky assumptions.

Well, of course. The question then just becomes which assumptions we consider wacky. Some folks consider the notion that Xykon might be level 33 or whatever to be wackier than the notion that he might have said "immunity" as a shorthand for "high enough resistance to be practically equivalent to immunity".

[Once&FutureKing]

But nobody is using the fire immunity discussion to suggest we should record his level as above 27. People like myself think it is very likely he is above 27, in part because of stuff like this, but nobody is saying that should be listed. Because we all agree, the evidence isn't clear enough.

The "evidence" he's below 27 is totally different, in that people want him listed as below (at 21!) despite the weak, weak evidence for it.

[SinsI]

But nobody is using the fire immunity discussion to suggest we should record his level as above 27. People like myself think it is very likely he is above 27, in part because of stuff like this, but nobody is saying that should be listed. Because we all agree, the evidence isn't clear enough.

The "evidence" he's below 27 is totally different, in that people want him listed as below (at 21!) despite the weak, weak evidence for it.

He said it himself ("I'm what - seven, eight levels above you?") - the evidence is almost as strong as it can get (barring direct Divine Intervention from the Giant). Of course, he could be mistaken - but not by a factor of two...

[Once&FutureKing]

That's the perfect example of terrible evidence, and the reasons why it's terrible have been explained repeatedly in this thread. Go back and read them.

It's certainly far weaker evidence than "stuff we actually see"

[Psyren]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...Dispelling.htm

We have never seen core spells be defined as something other than the book, and it would have been easy enough to say "Epic Dispel".

Epic Spells explicitly follow different rules. Which core spells do you build out of seeds?

[Once&FutureKing]

Superb Dispelling exists. This bizarre attempt I've seen you make, here and elsewhere, to claim there is "no such thing as Superb Dispelling" is frankly misguided. Sure, you can make your own version of Superb Dispelling, and if you wanted you could name it "superb Dispelling", just as you could invent your own forcecage and name it "Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage". However there is no reason for us to assume every (or any) spell is a homebrewed version unless we are given evidence that is the case, and that applies as much to Epic spells as non-Epic ones (both of which can have invented versions). Your insistence Epic spells "don't exist" (even when listed) is wrong, and you repeating it doesn't make it any more true, whether you repeat it a hundred times or a thousand times.

[EmperorSarda]

And finally, the "12th level spell slot" theory overlooks how Xykon is able to cast Still Meteor Swarm while grappled, because by the rules the only way he can do that is using Sudden Still (because Still Spell requires a full-round action and Sudden Still does not).

The lack of "sudden" not being said aside, we don't know if Xykon did take the full round action or not, given that they are very vague things. So Xykon might have used the full round and nothing was said about it.

He said it himself ("I'm what - seven, eight levels above you?") - the evidence is almost as strong as it can get (barring direct Divine Intervention from the Giant). Of course, he could be mistaken - but not by a factor of two...

1. Xykon doesn't know what level Roy is, and thus can not accurately say how many levels he is above Roy.
2. Xykon is a facetious evil dude who knew he could take down Roy without any effort. He wanted the challenge. Remember what he said to V, he goes easy to those on a Knight on a valiant quest type deal. He likes the tussle, the fight, the challenge. And, how Tarquin prepped Elan for when they would fight again, Xykon is doing this here.

So Xykon saying that he is at least 7 levels above Roy's level is only the minimum amount of levels Xykon has over Roy.

[Once&FutureKing]

How many posts has this been explained to people in? 7? 8? More?

[lord_khaine]

How many posts has this been explained to people in? 7? 8? More?

And how many times have we tried to explain that we dont accept your explanation, because we find the evidence disproving it to be significant?

edit.

as far as i can see, rolling a natural 20 on your dispel check doesnt automaticaly dispels a spell.

[Flame of Anor]

Assuming a sorcerer has used a low level scroll in preparation for a major battle is trivial. I have no objections to making that assumption, especially if the alternative (Durkon confidently rolled a 20, or Xykon is low level) is so improbable.

I second this view.

[LudiDrizzt]

I second this view.

Third. Very third.

[EmperorSarda]

What was the consensus about Thog's Constitution or Barbarian level by the way?

I know it is hard to determine Thog's precise level because he doesn't make that many attacks... But hopefully we can try and measure it.

We know that "A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier" where the constitution is increased by +4 before level 11 and +6 after. So if Thog were to have a constitution of 10, he would be able to rage for 5 rounds before level 11 and 6 rounds after. (We know that Thog cannot be level 17 because he became fatigued)

So here is a measure of how I counting rage rounds.
Round 1: Thog enters Rage in 795, throws Roy against Wall and stomps on his face in panels 2 and 3 of 796. (Rage doesn't take any time to enter into, though assuming Thog is above a combined level of 6 for two attacks in a round)
Round 2: 796 panels 5 and 6; Thog Jumps on Roy and kicks Roy's sword, killing his #1 fan. (Again, assuming Thog has more than six levels.
Round 3: Panels 10 and 11 of 796, Thog successfully grappling and throwing Roy into the wall.
Round 4: 796 panel 13, Thog runs or charges Roy and the wall
Round 5: 796 panels 14 and 15, Thog throws Roy on the ground and stomps on him. (Or we could argue that Thog has a combined level above 9 and those are three attacks in a round, but that is more shaky in my opinion)
Round 6: 796 panel 17, Thog hits Roy will a chunk of the wall.
Round 7: 797 panel 4/798 panel 1 Thog goes to grab another boulder.
Round 8: 798 panel 19* Thog takes out arrow from his leg or knee. (*Implied by the arrow missing from Thog's leg)
Round 9: 798 Panel 14, Thog throws a boulder at Roy
Round 10: 798 panel 17 Thog charges and smashes Roy into the wall.
Round 11: 803 Panels 4 and 6, Thog throws *three rocks at Roy (*Could be argued at two different rounds if we assume Thog's overall level is lower than 11)
Round 12: 803 panels 8 and 10, Thog approaches Roy with boulder to slam down at Roy.
Round 13: 803 Panels 12-22, Thog and Roy grapple each other
Round 14: 803 panel 23, Thog wins grapple and strangles Roy.
Round 15: 808 Panel 2, Thog throws Roy into crowd
Round 16: 808 Panels 5-11, Thog charges and performs a jump attack on Roy
Round 17: 808 panel 18, Thog charges Roy into column #1
Round 18: 808 panel 20, Thog charges Roy into column #2
Round 19: 808 panel 22, Thog charges Roy into column #3
Rage ends.

So, by my rough guesstimation of rounds and assuming Thog is lower than 11th level, 19-5=14(3 for the auto rage rounds plus temporarily increased constitution modifier) So with a +14 modifier, Thog would have a constitution of 38-39.
If we assume that Thog is at least level 11, that is a +12 modifier to put Thog's Constitution at 36-37.

We could perhaps rationalize combining some rounds, such as rounds 13 and 14, and maybe Rounds 9 and 10 and also rounds 4 and 5. If we were to figure at three less rounds, for a +11 bonus which would put Thog's constitution at 32-33.

Which would mean that Thog's strength would be higher, since he says it is his best stat.

I also decided to count what interactions we could see between V and Z, after Thog raged, to see what that could help tell us. Or between Qarr and Blackwing, when all four are not in the same strip.

Spoiler

Show

Round 1: 797 panel 3, Qarr cats Scorching Ray at the feather.
Round 2: 797 panel 11, Qarr casts lightning at Blackwing. (could also be simultaneous with 798 panel 7)
Round 3: 799 panel 3, V casts empowered fireball at Z
Round 4: 799 panel 9, V casts invisibility
Round 5: Offpanel, V casts Dominate Monster on YikYik
Round 6: 800 panel 2, sneak attack on Z
Round 7: 800 panel 4, Another crossbow attack on Z
Round 8: 800 panel 6, Crossbow attack!
Round 9: 800 panel 8, Crossbow attack again!
Round 10: Off panel/802 panel 1, crossbow bolts to the face
Round 11: 802 panel 7, failed crossbow attack

With my counting of what we see between V and Z, there are at least 11 rounds between them after Thog begins to rage. Add in the round or two it would take the guards to gather up Z and handcuff him, plus the three rounds of column smashing, that is a minimum 15 rage rounds. Which if Thog is lower than level 11, then he has a constitution of 30-31, or 28-29 if he is higher than level 11. This is the number of minimum rounds that there could be.

So... I think Thog's constitution should be listed as >= 28.

Though not related directly to the constitution argument, could we argue that Thog has at least 4 levels of Barbarian since he is throwing two boulders in that panel? His BAB of fighter and Barbarian would be +6/+1 then.
And if we agree on that, then we can say that Thog's barbarian levels are >=4.

Of course, there may and possibly are different ways to count the rounds that happened during Thog's rage. I put my estimate at the minimum, at what I think Thog's constitution may possibly be.
If nothing else, can we at least put Thog's constitution to be greater than 10? And put a 10 for dexterity since we have stated out other characters where there is no evidence given for the stat beyond racial?

[Once&FutureKing]

And how many times have we tried to explain that we dont accept your explanation, because we find the evidence disproving it to be significant?

edit.

as far as i can see, rolling a natural 20 on your dispel check doesnt automaticaly dispels a spell.

And what would that evidence be? The last post I remember you making was corrected shortly afterwards... was there more you can direct me to?

[Dark Matter]

How many posts has this been explained to people in? 7? 8? More?

Often enough that we need a FAQ.

And how many times have we tried to explain that we dont accept your explanation, because we find the evidence disproving it to be significant?

The 21+ group has an idea for explaining Still M-Swarm.
The 21+ group has an idea for explaining Max'ed Energy Drain.
But before we can compare the totality of the 21+ argument with the 27+ argument, someone needs to outline what they want to do with Superb Dispelling, i.e. how Xykon can throw around DC59 epic spells.

The current 21+ front runner for explaining Superb Dispelling is "there is no such spell". If you (or anyone) is serious about pursing that line of reasoning, please include links to the http://www.d20srd.org/ so the rest of us can follow your argument.

In order to be the simpler explanation, you need to actually explain things. You can't beat something with nothing, and at the moment the 21+ group doesn't have a completed idea.

[EmperorSarda]

But before we can compare the totality of the 21+ argument with the 27+ argument, someone needs to outline what they want to do with Superb Dispelling, i.e. how Xykon can throw around DC59 epic spells.

The DC 59 is a Spellcraft/forge check to develop and learn the spell, right?

[Douglas]

The DC 59 is a Spellcraft/forge check to develop and learn the spell, right?

It might be required for successful research, I'd have to check, but the important part here is that it is required each and every time you cast the spell. Thus, to explain the Darth V fight well Xykon needs to be able to reliably make it (taking 10 is explicitly allowed) at any time with no warning or special preparation.

[EmperorSarda]

It might be required for successful research, I'd have to check, but the important part here is that it is required each and every time you cast the spell. Thus, to explain the Darth V fight well Xykon needs to be able to reliably make it (taking 10 is explicitly allowed) at any time with no warning or special preparation.

That... is a lot. Wow.

In these calculations, are we assuming that Xykon got a natural 20 in casting, or that he took 10?

Apart from that, we know Xykon gets a +2 bonus to Spellcraft from Synergy with Knowledge Arcana. The feat Magical Aptitude grants another +2. Skill Focus would increase this by 3 each time taken. Edit: And the +9 bonus from Charisma.

If we assume level 27 minimum at least, that would be Spellcraft of 27, a roll of 10, factoring in synergy, and magical aptitude, and Charisma then that is 50. Which then, barring magical equipment, would require 3 Skill focus feats. Or if he got a natural 20, then no skill focus feats.

But yeah... even at that rough guesstimation, it is no wonder that many here think Xykon is over level 23.

Edit: Just on a brief glimpse through stuff, a masterwork tool of spellcraft would grant another +2 bonus to spell craft.

And though an epic feat, Epic Skill Focus from Codex Hammer, from Dragon #297 grants +10 to spellcraft. It is another epic feat though...

[Claudius Maximus]

Skills are extraordinarily easy to boost up, such that this could be done at 21st level (much sooner, really), but there's a problem in that we don't know how he would do it. There are a ton of possibilities here, especially out of core.

I think that the only thing we can state confidently here is that Xykon's spellcraft modifier is at least +39.

[Chronos]

Superb Dispelling exists. This bizarre attempt I've seen you make, here and elsewhere, to claim there is "no such thing as Superb Dispelling" is frankly misguided. Sure, you can make your own version of Superb Dispelling, and if you wanted you could name it "superb Dispelling", just as you could invent your own forcecage and name it "Xykon's Moderately Escapable Forcecage". However there is no reason for us to assume every (or any) spell is a homebrewed version unless we are given evidence that is the case, and that applies as much to Epic spells as non-Epic ones (both of which can have invented versions).

Yes, it exists because Xykon researched it. We know for an absolute certainty that the spell he cast called "Superb Dispelling" is a custom spell that he developed himself. How do we know this? Because all epic spells are custom spells that the caster researches himself. His version might be identical to the one presented in the book, but even if so, it's still a custom spell.

I do have a new argument to bring to the table, though. In the 8th panel of 637, when the yellow fiend sees V cast a Quickened Disintegrate, he says "Shh, all of you! It's getting good. I think that was a 10th-level spell slot that just got used." The fiends presumably know a lot more about how the world works than we do, and when one of them saw a metamagicked spell that would go over 9, he didn't assume an unseen rod, or a sudden metamagic, or the like: He assumed a 10th-level spell slot. It seems reasonable to me that we should make the same assumption when we see Xykon casting similarly-metamagicked spells, which means he has at least 12th-level slots for Maximized Energy Drain, and hence has the Improved Spell Capacity feat at least three times. Along with Epic Spellcasting, that would be four epic feats, and hence at least level 26.

[Kalmegil]

I can't speak to the Superb Dispelling issue - I don't know enough about skill boosts to even begin to analyze it.

But I don't think you can read the fiends knowledge of V's meta magic abilities to imply anything about Xykon's. We know the fiends did research on V; it's perfectly reasonable for them to know that V (and presumably the spliced souls) has no sudden metamagic abilities, and thus that V used a 10th level spell slot to cast Quickened Disintegrate. I don't see how we can extrapolate from that to "Xykon's not using sudden metamagic."

That's not to say I think Xykon is using sudden metamagic. I just don't think the fiend's knowledge of Darth V's abilities tell us anything about Xykon's.