Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[JFMS]

I don't think that the superb dispelling cast by Xykon is the one in the SRD, because that version has 10d6 of backlash damage, and Xykon doesn't appear to be more injuried after the casting.
What if in his version, he used another mitigator factor. If he burns 3000 XP, he gets -30 to the spellcraft DC, to a total of 39.
The epic spells are too random to be used as base to determine level.

[Flame of Anor]

What was the consensus about Thog's Constitution or Barbarian level by the way?

I know it is hard to determine Thog's precise level because he doesn't make that many attacks... But hopefully we can try and measure it.

...

What if Thog has a rage-extending feat?

[WowWeird]

<snip snip here and snip snip there>
The current 21+ front runner for explaining Superb Dispelling is "there is no such spell". If you (or anyone) is serious about pursing that line of reasoning, please include links to the http://www.d20srd.org/ so the rest of us can follow your argument.

While I am definitely NOT in favor of Xykon being <27, I saw the "Superb Dispelling= the example in the SRD/ELH" debate during a thread regarding who could beat Xykon. OnceandFutureKing should remember it too
I think that there really isn't a reason to assume it's the one in the SRD, because
1. The SRD version deals backlash damage, and (while it is disputed) I think the majority of the posters on the other thread couldn't see any signs of it during Xykon's casting here.
2. Here we go with the quote-spam.

Before it can be cast, an epic spell must be developed.

So using the variant provided by the ELH would do absolutely nothing for Xykon, because it would be more money, time, and XP (forms of power, which we know he likes) given that

...the maximum bonus on the dispel check is +40.

Now I know there's dispute on Xykon's caster level, but I'm fairly certain that consensus (and what we've seen him do in the comic- a fortieth-level sorcerer almost never uses spells below 9th level, and Xykon seems like someone who would make use of high-powered spells to an incredibly liberal degree) pegs him as less than 40- so why would he take this extra DC (and, if it is the SRD version, backlash damage to mitigate it)? There's really no point. And for the "Not all the characters are optimized" crowd-

Spoiler

Show

1. Xykon is interested in power, sure, but he demonstrates that he understands that using what you have effectively is just as important as the raw potency itself. 2. Xykon actually references build optimization during his "fight" with Roy.At the very least, he understands the concept, inasmuch as it provides more power- and, while I'm sick of typing the word "power", Xykon's power rant (and desire to rule the world) shows that he does desire it, and seek it out as effectively as he can.

So, there is evidence (or rather, a lack of it) from the art that seems to show that the spell he cast isn't the SRD Superb Dispelling, using it is actually a bit of a departure from his character, and the spell is mechanically gimped and not actually the spell it should be (while Xykon might not notice the difference, it says "as greater dispel magic", yet uses the dispel seed, which clearly states "...The dispel seed can defeat all spells, even those not normally subject to dispel magic." Kind of a slip for the ELH there).
EDIT; Dammit, JMFS. You ninja'd me so easily there.
And, to elaborate on your point, I don't think we SHOULD use epic spells to draw conclusions unless there's no other evidence. There are so many variables...

[Dark Matter]

Yes, it exists because Xykon researched it. We know for an absolute certainty that the spell he cast called "Superb Dispelling" is a custom spell that he developed himself. How do we know this? Because all epic spells are custom spells that the caster researches himself.

Personal research yes, "custom", no.

"All the epic spells described here can be developed independently by a character who spends the necessary time, money, and experience points. Alternatively, a character can use those spells as a starting point when creating customized versions of the spells."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/developingEpicSpells.htm

"The easiest way to develop an epic spell is to use one already given. The description of each of these unique spells gives the amount of gold, time, and experience points required to develop the spell. If a character pays a spell’s development cost, he or she develops (and thus knows) that spell."

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spell...tAreEpicSpells

Once again, if you're going to pursue this line of argument, please supply links.

[Dark Matter]

Apart from that, we know Xykon gets a +2 bonus to Spellcraft from Synergy with Knowledge Arcana. The feat Magical Aptitude grants another +2. Skill Focus would increase this by 3 each time taken. Edit: And the +9 bonus from Charisma.

Spellcraft is Int, not Charisma. And Skill Focus can only be taken once per skill.

Superb Dispelling's DC:
10 : Takes 10
27 : Spellcraft of 27
03 : Skill Focus
02 : Synergy with Knowledge Arcana
02 : Magical Aptitude
10 : Epic Skill Focus

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSkillFocus

And I'm short some. Int bonus? I think I'm forgetting something else too.[/QUOTE]

[Chronos]

Plus an arbitrary amount from a (possibly epic) item that gives a competence bonus, or a long-duration epic spell that does the same, etc. Epic characters have oodles of different options for boosting a skill check, and I don't think we have any way of knowing which Xykon is using.

[ti'esar]

1. The SRD version deals backlash damage, and (while it is disputed) I think the majority of the posters on the other thread couldn't see any signs of it during Xykon's casting here.

This needs reiteration - I'd say it pretty much sinks the idea that Xykon is using the SRD reason.

[Once&FutureKing]

here was backlash damage. There are at least 3 new and distinct injury lines. I pointed this out multiple times in a recent thread. 2 are white and one is on the lower front of xykon's cloak. It is annoying that people persist in saying this to discredit superb dispelling.

[ti'esar]

Except that many people, myself included, feel that was preexisting damage that just wasn't visible before. It certainly doesn't look like 10d6 points worth, nor was there any actual indication (a reaction, a visible magic effect) that would suggest something happened.

[WowWeird]

Pardon my ignorance, but how could Xykon take ten on his Spellcraft? From what I recall, it required you to not be threatened (clearly not the case with Darth V present) and for you to effectively repeat the check ten times (and from there, the DM assumed that you rolled a ten at one point), which would imply Xykon has at least +100 to Knowledge (arcana), which I find staggeringly unlikely.

And OaFK, I mentioned that it was debated in another thread. You were the only one who saw those lines as backlash damage- everyone else couldn't see them or thought they were preexisting, not to mention the relative size of the scratches compared to 10d6. I find it annoying when you point at something nobody else can see and exclaim "HAH! Clearly, I am correct!"

[Douglas]

Pardon my ignorance, but how could Xykon take ten on his Spellcraft? From what I recall, it required you to not be threatened (clearly not the case with Darth V present) and for you to effectively repeat the check ten times (and from there, the DM assumed that you rolled a ten at one point), which would imply Xykon has at least +100 to Knowledge (arcana), which I find staggeringly unlikely.

A) Take 10 doesn't take any longer than just rolling. It's the take 20 option that requires extra time and is approximately equivalent to making the attempt 20 times.
B) Take 10 does normally require not being threatened, but the rules for casting epic spells state you can take 10 and do not require being non-threatened for it.

Except that many people, myself included, feel that was preexisting damage that just wasn't visible before. It certainly doesn't look like 10d6 points worth, nor was there any actual indication (a reaction, a visible magic effect) that would suggest something happened.

I just looked over that sequence again, and Rich is quite consistent about using exactly the same damage marks from panel to panel, and the instant Xykon casts Superb Dispelling multiple new ones show up. The white X on his torso could conceivably be a damage mark that had been obscured by his arm and the "camera angle" up to that point, but that seems unlikely to me and the new white damage mark on his right arm is clearly not there as recently as two panels (where nothing but dialog and Superb Dispelling happen) before.

As for those not looking like enough for 10d6 (average 35), compare it to what he got for 25d6 * 1.5 (average 131) from the Empowered Sunburst. Does it look significant enough to match roughly a quarter of the damage he had already taken? Yes. Yes, it does.

[WowWeird]

Thank you, douglas. I never saw that before.
EDIT; I was referring to the taking ten rules. I still think that those scratches were obscured, or possibly moved to keep a consistent approximation of how much damage Xykon had taken. (Does Rich do this? I really never thought about it...)

[Once&FutureKing]

I just looked over that sequence again, and Rich is quite consistent about using exactly the same damage marks from panel to panel, and the instant Xykon casts Superb Dispelling multiple new ones show up. The white X on his torso could conceivably be a damage mark that had been obscured by his arm and the "camera angle" up to that point, but that seems unlikely to me and the new white damage mark on his right arm is clearly not there as recently as two panels (where nothing but dialog and Superb Dispelling happen) before.

As for those not looking like enough for 10d6 (average 35), compare it to what he got for 25d6 * 1.5 (average 131) from the Empowered Sunburst. Does it look significant enough to match roughly a quarter of the damage he had already taken? Yes. Yes, it does.

Yeh, I'm amazed people were still disputing this. Not to mention, Xykon should take less damage than you'd expect from using it once, because it tops out at 60 hit points damage (and averages 30), while estimates have Xykon at around 180 HP's.

[Douglas]

Just went a little further in the Darth V fight, and noticed that the exact same arm angle that might plausibly have concealed the torso damage mark earlier shows up again in the first panel here, and that damage mark is only half covered with the rest clearly visible. So, I don't think the preexisting-but-newly-visible argument is even partially viable.

[WowWeird]

This argument is definitely not productive- I don't see it, others don't see it, other others do. If anyone, we need RMS to decide.
*deepbreath* RMS!!
But that brings me to a related question- how do you get 35 as an average for 10d6? I get 30, and OaFK seems to as well. When calculating mode, I do get 3.5 as the base roll on a d6, but the mean is... oh. Never mind.

[Once&FutureKing]

I didn't intend mine to be an actual average, I couldn't be bothered. I just picked the halfway point of the max, which I knew would be approximately right anyhow.

[ti'esar]

Actually, it does like the mark on his right arm really wasn't there before.

[Claudius Maximus]

But that brings me to a related question- how do you get 35 as an average for 10d6? I get 30, and OaFK seems to as well. When calculating mode, I do get 3.5 as the base roll on a d6, but the mean is... oh. Never mind.

The minimum is 1, not 0, so the average of rolls on a given die is actually 0.5 higher than the middle number. So 2.5 for a d4, and 3.5 for a d6, etc.

[Once&FutureKing]

Conclusion; until we get some evidence to the contrary, we should assume Superb Dispelling is Superb Dispelling. Complicated I know.

Broader conclusion; there is an awful lot of evidence that Xykon is at least 27+, and only counter-intuitive long-shot, non-core evidence he is not, all of which is very problematic, doesn't satisfy most of the problems posed, and would still peg Xykon at over level 21.

outcome; remove the disputed tag. At least, unless disputed just goes up whenever someone disagrees. In which case, I hereby dispute every conclusion. Please add tags accordingly.

[EmperorSarda]

What if Thog has a rage-extending feat?

Good point. Extend rage adds 5 rounds onto the rage and can be taken multiple times.
Can we put that Thog's Dexterity and Constitution is at least 10 though, rather than leaving it out entirely?

Also, for the panel where he threw two rocks, could that be considered two attacks and thus could we determine that Thog's Barbarian level is at least 4?

Actually, it does like the mark on his right arm really wasn't there before.

And while I am in favor of Superb Dispelling being Superb Dispelling from the SRD, how do we not know that the new damage isn't from the Grasping Hand trying to squish Xykon or if he took bludgeoning damage from his Meteor Swarms?

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw the new damage that was being referred to. I retract my question.

[Once&FutureKing]

btw, for anyone curious from the earlier discussion of Epic spells, I googled familicide, cloister and Epic Teleport and came up with this for Familicide:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...61&postcount=1

and this for Cloister:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139174 which are interesting.

Couldn't find a statting for Epic Teleport though. I suspect that since we saw no save for Familicide we'd need to work out the cost of a version that doesn't save too... and Cloister is being cast way too frequently to have a 20K XP cost, so that'll need fixing too.

[Once&FutureKing]

And while I am in favor of Superb Dispelling being Superb Dispelling from the SRD, how do we not know that the new damage isn't from the Grasping Hand trying to squish Xykon or if he took bludgeoning damage from his Meteor Swarms?

...

Go back and read what was posted earlier?

Look at the comic?

[EmperorSarda]

...

Go back and read what was posted earlier?

Look at the comic?

Yeah, I edited what I said near the end and saw what was being talked about. I feel foolish.

[Kurald Galain]

Often enough that we need a FAQ.

Yeah, I agree.

Let me give a summary of all arguments regarding Xykon's level. Bear in mind that I am not endorsing or promoting any of these, I am just listing them (do remember that when I was running this thread alone, the theory listed was in fact theory A). Now I don't care how "idiotic" you think some of these arguments might be, this is just an enumeration. If I've missed any, let me know and I'll add them.


The first dispute is about how exactly Xykon casts Maximized Energy Drain in comic 657. This has been discussed several times over the past years, so it should not be surprising that this is a long list.

Theory A: he uses Improved Spell Capacity (taken three times)

• This assumes Xykon is level 27+, to be able to get those feats.
• This assumes Xykon has some way of casting a Still Spell while grappled (which by RAW he cannot do) or that Rich is ignoring that rule.
• This assumes sufficient epic-level threats exist in the world that Xykon could defeat to even reach that level; this has been brought up as a counterargument since we haven't seen any of these except for the Order of the Scribble.
• This assumes Xykon casts Greater Invis from a scroll for comic 429, because even though we know he has it on his own spell list, if he cast it by himself Durkon wouldn't be able to dispel it (or, it assumes that O-Chul's spell list is incorrect, and any evidence taken from it shouldn't count; or it assumes that Durkon has one or more feats to boost his dispel check).
• This assumes that when a character mentions Xykon's level to be approximately 21, that character is lying or mistaken.
• This is not core.

Theory B: He uses a Rod of Metamagic

• We don't see the rod; so this assumes either he can use it simply by having it on his person (RAW is not exactly clear on that) or he has a reslotted version of the item.

Theory C: He uses the Sudden Maximize feat

• This assumes that Sudden Maximize has the same visual depiction as Maximize Spell.
• This is not core.

Theory D: Rich wasn't using that particular rule

• It is certainly possible that Rich was omitting a rule to make a better story, or that he was unaware of it. However, if Rich was skipping a rule, we don't know which rule or rules, unless he comes out and tells us. So if we assume Rich doesn't follow the rules in this scene, we cannot conclude anything about Xykon's level or feats.

The second dispute is how exactly Xykon casts Superb Dispelling in comic 653.

Theory E: He uses the version printed in the Epic Level Handbook, and has no items to boost his spellcraft.

• This assumes Xykon has the feats Skill Focus, Epic Skill Focus, and Magical Aptitude to reach the DC, and sufficient levels to take those feats.
• This assumes the damage marks seen on Xykon when he casts Superb Dispelling are backlash damage for that spell.
• This assumes that Xykon would only research or cast spells that have no chance of failure in combat.
• This is not core.

Theory F: He uses the version printed in the Epic Level Handbook, and has an item or spell that boosts spellcraft.

• Such as an item that gives a competence bonus, or a long-duration epic spell that does the same, etc.
• The item is core; the spells are not.

Theory G: Since all epic spells are custom spells anyway, Xykon wasn't using the one printed in the Epic Level Handbook.

• This assumes the damage marks seen on Xykon are from V's other spells.
• This assumes that Xykon can create a custom spell without naming it after himself.
• This is not core.

Theory H: Rich wasn't using that particular rule.

• So we can't conclude anything from that panel.

[Once&FutureKing]

I've gotten several warnings already today, one for "using real world religion" in a point, and while these things never dissuade me much (online board rules are always so broad, you can be banned for anything), I'll nonetheless choose my next words carefully.

Your opening remark is "I'm not taking sides". I ask people who support my position to tell me whether they really believe what Kurald just wrote was a balanced summary of the two positions, because it seems clear from the emphasis (or lack thereof), and incredibly charitable (or uncharitable) description of the arguments, that Kurald's position is very clear, whether he is indicating as much consciously or not.

EDIT: in fairness, I'll say it looks a little more balanced with all the editing he subsequently did. Still alot of emphasis in the wrong places though.

[Kurald Galain]

What was the consensus about Thog's Constitution or Barbarian level by the way?

I find this very interesting, but this is the third time I've seen someone make a nice list of rounds like this, and I'm afraid all three of them have been different. So last time we ended up concluding "we don't know", but it's nice to discuss anyway.

[ti'esar]

Frankly, as someone who does feel that Xykon is closer to 30 then 20, I have to say that between you and Kurald Galain, the latter has consistently behaved in a more polite and respectful manner towards his opponents. The post seems balanced to me and I see no reason why it wouldn't be.

[lord_khaine]

Ahh, i wantet to comment on Theory G, but it were editet in the meantime, all in all an excellent summary, that i feel does cover the entire argument so far.

[Once&FutureKing]

I have a new theory. Thog is secretly an Elf, and all evidence to the contrary is lies and conspiracy theories. Sure, I have no evidence for my claim, but as long as it's theoretically possible it should merit a dispute tag, right?

[RMS Oceanic]

I have been allowing the discussion to flow back and forth for a day to pick up all the arguments, because I realised - or rather, Kurald helped me realise - that I was getting too caught up in the debate to maintain my objectivity. I had crossed the line from curator to advocate for a specific theory. I would like to apologise to everyone for this, and thank Kurald for keeping me right. I hope I can do better in the future.

With Kurald's admirable summary of all the theories and arguments, ranging from Durkon's dispelling of Xykon's invisibility to his use of Superb Dispelling, it feels like ultimately it doesn't fit into a coherent rules-satisfying unified theory, and there is no word of Rich to explain what, if anything, he was ignoring. Until we have further evidence, I have flagged Xykon's level and his epic feats as disputed.

Also I agree with Kurald that we can't accurately determine how many rounds Thog was raging for, so I'm not going to guess his constitution at this time. If someone can devise some way of accurately determining the minimum number of rounds he was raging, we can look at this again.