Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Once&FutureKing]

Let's examine what you just said logically, because to me that reads something like this: "because Durkon could dispel something we didn't even see Xykon cast, it means he can't have Superb Dispelling, therefore everything is logically inconsistent".

When you know one thing (that he can cast superb dispelling), and don't have good evidence for the other (that he cast Greater Invisibility himself), then you go off the thing you have better evidence for (which is a prima facie Superb Dispelling, a 12th and 10th level spell slot, seven 9th level spells in a day, some kind of high end crafting feat, etc). Instead for some reason the 2 claims are getting equal treatment, which makes no sense I can see, and certainly isn't how the other outcomes are judged, a point that has been made ad naseum.

[RMS Oceanic]

The disputed tag is a stop gap while Kurald and I discuss a more long term solution. Once we've worked it out we'll let you know. It hopefully shouldn't take too long.

[Dark Matter]

I've got some quibbles which I'll add in here.

Theory C: He uses the Sudden Maximize feat

• He didn't use the word "sudden".
• This is not core.

Please add to that:
"He used Maximize again later that scene and there was no difference between the first or second usage".

Theory F: He uses the version printed in the Epic Level Handbook, but several methods exist to boost skill checks, so he could do that at level 21.

• Such as a (possibly epic) item that gives a competence bonus, or a long-duration epic spell that does the same, etc.

Please add to that: "This is not core. For DC59 to work at level 27 Xykon needs all of the core spell craft boosting feats and bonuses. Dropping his level to 21 means he needs another +16 in bonus, all of which has to be non-core."

Theory G: Since all epic spells are custom spells anyway, Xykon wasn't using the one printed in the Epic Level Handbook

• The damage marks seen on Xykon could be from V's other spells.

Please add to that: "Non-core, and Xykon's other personally invented spells which had alterations from the listed spells where labeled 'Xykon's XYZ'."

[lord_khaine]

Let's examine what you just said logically, because to me that reads something like this: "because Durkon could dispel something we didn't even see Xykon cast, it means he can't have Superb Dispelling, therefore everything is logically inconsistent".

Just because you are unable to understand the logic doesnt mean its inconsistent, and whatever you are refering to with Super Dispel isnt relevant to the issue at hand, considering it could be cast at level 21 or 27.

Firstly, we know that Xykon can cast greater invisibility from the list O'chul made, and it would be directly stupid of him to cast it from a scroll then, since the allready low duration would then be around 1/3 of what it could have been, as well as a lot easyer to dispel for lowlevel casters.

Secondly, i would then like to know how Xykon in your "core only world" manage to cast a stilled spell while grappled?

[Dark Matter]

Firstly, we know that Xykon can cast greater invisibility from the list O'chul made, and it would be directly stupid of him to cast it from a scroll then, since the allready low duration would then be around 1/3 of what it could have been, as well as a lot easyer to dispel for lowlevel casters.

Sorcerers don't have the option of picking which spells they're going to cast right before a battle. They're stuck with their spell list and that's it. It makes a lot of sense for them to use scrolls for what they don't know.

Notice the plan (which Xykon didn't follow) eliminated all of Greater Invis' problems. The lower duration isn't an issue because he was supposed to attack the thrown room, kill all the paladins, and then animate them. Similarly being vulnerable to dispel wouldn't mean anything because Paladins can't cast Dispel. If Xykon had followed the plan none of them would have had the chance to attack him at all (Xykon and Redcloak didn't know about Soon).

And O'Chul's list is great but it's a list of what he personally has seen... and he saw the same battle we did.

[Kalmegil]

Did O'Chul see the use of Greater Invisibility? I don't think he did, since he was in the castle, and the spell was dispelled on the wall.

******

Which language in the SRD are people using to demonstrate that someone can take 10 while threatened to cast an epic spell. I did a quick search on the page for "threat" but didn't find it. The closest I got was the statement this: "a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks."

I don't read "a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell" as saying the normal take 10 rules don't apply, but rather distinguishing that they can't ever take 20. And "routinely casting epic spells" doesn't seem to include being threatened.

[lord_khaine]

Sorcerers don't have the option of picking which spells they're going to cast right before a battle. They're stuck with their spell list and that's it. It makes a lot of sense for them to use scrolls for what they don't know.

Oh really...
Are you now also going to claim he cant learn divine spells just because he is a sorcerer?

Notice the plan (which Xykon didn't follow) eliminated all of Greater Invis' problems. The lower duration isn't an issue because he was supposed to attack the thrown room, kill all the paladins, and then animate them. Similarly being vulnerable to dispel wouldn't mean anything because Paladins can't cast Dispel. If Xykon had followed the plan none of them would have had the chance to attack him at all (Xykon and Redcloak didn't know about Soon).

Notice that greater invisibility has a duration measured in rounds, casting it from a normal scroll would give him seven of those, and then we are getting close to the point where it wouldnt have mattered if Durkon had managet to dispel the invisibility or not, because it would have worn off on its own in a couple of seconds.
No, if he could cast it on his own, then it would make a lot more sense for him to do so, and then actualy have enough time to reach the gate while still invisibel.

And O'Chul's list is great but it's a list of what he personally has seen... and he saw the same battle we did.

No, O'Chul did not see the same battle we did, he were guarding the gate, and when Xykon made his arrival he were allready visible, so i think its more beliveable that he saw him use it at some point later.

[EmperorSarda]

Also I agree with Kurald that we can't accurately determine how many rounds Thog was raging for, so I'm not going to guess his constitution at this time. If someone can devise some way of accurately determining the minimum number of rounds he was raging, we can look at this again.

Well... I think looking strictly at Thog's and Roy's fight may not be exactly the best way because we don't know Thog's barbarian level and thus don't know how many attacks a round he gets, which means there will be lots of variance in the way of counting.

Looking at V's and Z's fight, I think we can establish a minimum number of rounds just from their fight, since going off rounds or by crossbow bolts firing is a little easier.

Also, as was pointed out to me, Extend Rage adds 5 rounds onto the rage and can be taken multiple times. So even if we were to accurately count the rounds, we cannot assume Thog's constitution to be anything. Cause personally I think it is more likely that Thog has taken that feat a couple times rather than have a constitution in the mid to high 20's.

That being said, since we have no concrete evidence for Thog's Constitution and Dexterity, can we put those at being 10 rather than leaving them off altogether?

As far as Thog's overall level, could it be said that throwing two boulders here in panel 4 is two attacks and that Thog's overall level is at least level 6, ie Thog's barbarian level is at least 4?

Oh really...
Are you now also going to claim he cant learn divine spells just because he is a sorcerer?

Can we leave out the sarcasm please?

[Dark Matter]

Notice that greater invisibility has a duration measured in rounds, casting it from a normal scroll would give him seven of those, and then we are getting close to the point where it wouldnt have mattered if Durkon had managet to dispel the invisibility or not, because it would have worn off on its own in a couple of seconds.
No, if he could cast it on his own, then it would make a lot more sense for him to do so, and then actualy have enough time to reach the gate while still invisible.

It's unclear whether he'd have enough time to reach the wall/gate even with himself casting it. How many round does it take for the goblins to reach the wall? Many turns, right? For the durations to make sense I think he needs to have cast Invisibility before Greater Invisibility, regardless of whether he cast the later from a scroll or from himself.

No, O'Chul did not see the same battle we did, he were guarding the gate...

The thrown room has these great big windows (which Xykon crashed through) and which look out over the battle (the PCs on the wall knew Xykon crashed through them into the thrown room).

OChul was one of the first people on Xykon (thus he was close to the windows) and Xykon didn't get a surprise round (the Paladins knew he was coming through the window).

It'd be odd if the Paladin's weren't watching the battle progress considering what they were expecting. Xykon and his dragon attacked one of the most visible and obvious parts of the battlefield (i.e. he was showing off).

So yes, we can assume O'Chul knew about the battle's use of Greater Invisibility. This doesn't mean Xykon didn't use Greater Invisibility on OChul later, but it does call into question what OChul knows and from when.

[EmperorSarda]

The thrown room has these great big windows (which Xykon crashed through) and which look out over the battle (the PCs on the wall knew Xykon crashed through them into the thrown room).

OChul was one of the first people on Xykon (thus he was close to the windows) and Xykon didn't get a surprise round (the Paladins knew he was coming through the window).

It also helped that Xykon paused and looked in on the window first before he entered. Giving both parties time to see each other.

[lord_khaine]

Can we leave out the sarcasm please?

Sure, we can hang it besides the insults.

The thrown room has these great big windows (which Xykon crashed through) and which look out over the battle (the PCs on the wall knew Xykon crashed through them into the thrown room).

OChul was one of the first people on Xykon (thus he was close to the windows) and Xykon didn't get a surprise round (the Paladins knew he was coming through the window).

It'd be odd if the Paladin's weren't watching the battle progress considering what they were expecting. Xykon and his dragon attacked one of the most visible and obvious parts of the battlefield (i.e. he was showing off).

So yes, we can assume O'Chul knew about the battle's use of Greater Invisibility. This doesn't mean Xykon didn't use Greater Invisibility on OChul later, but it does call into question what OChul knows and from when.

Actualy, the windows are quite high up, it should not be possible for a normal sized person to look out of them and see whats going on with the wall.

And even if that wasnt the case, then the wall should be to far away for someone without any real ranks in spot to be able to see whats happening, especaly not details like the use of greater invisibility vs normal invisibility.

[Dark Matter]

...the wall should be to far away for someone without any real ranks in spot to be able to see whats happening, especaly not details like the use of greater invisibility vs normal invisibility.

The whole "picked up and mangled by an invisible dragon" incident was somewhat obvious. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0429.html

As for spot checks, "good, not dumb". One hopes the people with the best spot checks would be next to the window, and anyone who made theirs would let the others know what was going on.

Further both Durkon and Hinjo made their spot checks when Xykon went through the window, so it couldn't have been all that hard a check. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

[EmperorSarda]

Sure, we can hang it besides the insults.



Actualy, the windows are quite high up, it should not be possible for a normal sized person to look out of them and see whats going on with the wall.

And even if that wasnt the case, then the wall should be to far away for someone without any real ranks in spot to be able to see whats happening, especaly not details like the use of greater invisibility vs normal invisibility.

You mean these windows? They don't look so high up to me.

[EmperorSarda]

Sure, we can hang it besides the insults.



Actualy, the windows are quite high up, it should not be possible for a normal sized person to look out of them and see whats going on with the wall.

And even if that wasnt the case, then the wall should be to far away for someone without any real ranks in spot to be able to see whats happening, especaly not details like the use of greater invisibility vs normal invisibility.

You mean these windows? They don't look so high up to me.

[EmperorSarda]

Sure, we can hang it besides the insults.



Actualy, the windows are quite high up, it should not be possible for a normal sized person to look out of them and see whats going on with the wall.

And even if that wasnt the case, then the wall should be to far away for someone without any real ranks in spot to be able to see whats happening, especaly not details like the use of greater invisibility vs normal invisibility.

You mean these windows? They don't look so high up to me.

[cd4]

You mean these windows? They don't look so high up to me.

They are on the 8th floor

As for the spellcraft DC of the Superb Dispelling, two things have not been mentioned:

Originally posted by Epic Skills
Skill Synergy
Many skills are noted as granting a synergy bonus to the use of another skill when a character has 5 or more ranks in the first skill. This synergy bonus increases by +2 for every additional 20 ranks the character has in the skill.

Also that an epic item that boost a skill can give any boost you want with the only limitation being ((skill(max 30)^2*100)(at 90000 for +30)+((skill-30)^2*1000))/2 cash with some XP based on that

[Dark Matter]

As for the spellcraft DC of the Superb Dispelling, two things have not been mentioned:

Skill Synergy
Many skills are noted as granting a synergy bonus to the use of another skill when a character has 5 or more ranks in the first skill. This synergy bonus increases by +2 for every additional 20 ranks the character has in the skill.

Meaning if Xykon has 25 ranks in Knowledge Arcana (and is ergo level 22), he gets a +4 bonus instead of a +2. Very very good, thanks, he can be built with slightly less min/maxing.

Spellcraft for Xykon level 27:
30 : Spellcraft of 30 (his level 27 + 3)
10 : Takes 10
03 : Skill Focus
04 : Synergy with Knowledge Arcana (assumes a KA of 25+)
02 : Magical Aptitude
02 : Int of 14 (age bonus + lich)
10 : Epic Skill Focus http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#epicSkillFocus

Total : 61
Superb Dispelling's DC's: 59

Also that an epic item that boost a skill can give any boost you want with the only limitation being ((skill(max 30)^2*100)(at 90000 for +30)+((skill-30)^2*1000))/2 cash with some XP based on that

We're talking about a seriously plot effecting epic item which is unseen and unmentioned. That's several serious problems right there.

Worse, the *only* core item which adds to spellcraft is the "Rod of Epic Spellcrafting" (see below). It has a +10 bonus and it also requires that Xykon be level 29 to build it.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magic...picSpellcaster

[lord_khaine]

The whole "picked up and mangled by an invisible dragon" incident was somewhat obvious.

Maybe if you are standing on the wall, i doubt the same would apply to someone ½way across the town.

As for spot checks, "good, not dumb". One hopes the people with the best spot checks would be next to the window, and anyone who made theirs would let the others know what was going on.

being good or dumb doesnt have anything to do with it, not having spot as a class skill, and having int/wis as a dumb stat does.

Further both Durkon and Hinjo made their spot checks when Xykon went through the window, so it couldn't have been all that hard a check. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html

It should be a bit easyer to notice someone crashing though a window, than to see a dwarf on a random part of the wall dispelling Xykon.

You mean these windows? They don't look so high up to me.

Then take a closer look Here, its clear to me that the windows are so high up, that a normal person cant look out though them and see anything on a lower attitude.

[EmperorSarda]

Then take a closer look Here, its clear to me that the windows are so high up, that a normal person cant look out though them and see anything on a lower attitude.

And we are so sure of their perspective from the 8th floor that they cannot notice huge details like a Lich on a dragon?

[Once&FutureKing]

The dual burdens of proof here is so obvious, I shouldn't need to point it out.

On the one hand, one of the pro "Xykon is 27+ arguments" is that he claims to have crafted a ring of fire immunity. And based off what he's said, and what we've seen, it is very possible to speculate that is the case. It is quite likely. But our side recognised all the way through this discussion that since we couldn't prove it, it was only conjecture (which is why we're pushing for 27+ and not 35+).

Yet the anti Xykon is 27+ side, who is happily accepting our above concession about the crafting feats, is turning around and trying to use the same sort of speculative logic to claim Greater Invisibility must have been cast by Xykon, even though we never saw him cast it, and it is just as arguable he didn't (as Dark Matter just covered).

This is the problem. All the "good" arguments by the anti-27+ side are of the same logical strength as the "bad" (and not invoked) 27+ side arguments.

And in order to dispel the 27+ side's good arguments, we need to use speculative "hey, it's possible" reasoning, for which there's no evidence whatever. The problem is this sort of reasoning could be used to dispute anything. I could claim Thog was an Elf, and as long as I can construct a convoluted theory to that effect which is technically possible, then apparently that constitutes "a dispute", even if there is no evidence in the comic that any of my assumptions are true. In Xykon's instance that amounts to metamagic rods/spells we can't see or get any hint of, non-core hombrewed spells we don't get any indication are being used, etc.

[Dark Matter]

Maybe if you are standing on the wall, i doubt the same would apply to someone ½way across the town.

We don't know "½way across the town". What we know is that Durkon had no difficulty making his spot check and Durkon is terrible at spot.

...being good or dumb doesnt have anything to do with it, not having spot as a class skill, and having int/wis as a dumb stat does.

Spot is Wisdom; Wisdom isn't dump for Paladins since they use it to cast spells.

With 50 Paladins or Paladin multiclass character, it's a pretty safe bet that some of them have Spot checks at least as good as Durkon. In fact it's a safe bet that some of them have a better check.

It should be a bit easyer to notice someone crashing though a window, than to see a dwarf on a random part of the wall dispelling Xykon.

True, but "seeing a dwarf" is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter who dispelled the greater invisibility, or even if no one did and it's duration ran out. What OChul needs to know is an invisible Xykon/dragon attacked the wall, and that it appeared there.

[Math_Mage]

Also I agree with Kurald that we can't accurately determine how many rounds Thog was raging for, so I'm not going to guess his constitution at this time. If someone can devise some way of accurately determining the minimum number of rounds he was raging, we can look at this again.

I can do that! It's going to be slightly fudged, though. I'm also assuming Thog has some unarmed combat feats since he doesn't seem to be provoking AoOs, while Roy does at least once.

795: Thog rages, starting Round 1 of rage. 0 full rounds so far.

796: I take the sequence up to Thog kicking Roy's sword into the stands as a full attack action. Roy provokes an AoO with his unarmed attacks, and Thog smashes him into a wall on his turn. Thog takes at least one more full attack action in this strip; he may take a second turn for the last panel depending on how long it took him to get that rock and whether Roy's attempt at surrender counts as his turn. 3-4 rounds completed.

798: Roy stabs Thog and runs away. Thog throws a rock at him. Roy drinks a potion of Cure Critical Wounds. Thog smashes him into a wall again. Roy stabs him with an improvised weapon and runs. 5-6 rounds completed.

803: At least two rounds of Roy dodging rocks. In the third round Thog comes in with a rock; Roy blocks it. Roy grapples Thog; Thog sees the puppy and wins his grapple check hard. 9-10 rounds completed.

808: Roy throws sand in Thog's eyes, Thog tosses Roy into stands. Roy scares everyone away, Thog charges him through the floor. In the next three rounds, Roy goes to stand in front of a pillar, and Thog charges him into it. At the end of that last charge, Thog's rage wears off. 14-15 rounds total.

As such, I think it's implausible to build Thog without at least one Extend Rage feat. On the other hand, I also think it's implausible to build Thog with two Extend Rage feats, as that would give him at best +0 (and it could be -2) in Con, which doesn't make sense to me. So my opinion is that Thog has one Extend Rage feat and a pre-rage Constitution modifier of +3 to +5 (+3 assumes 14 rounds and >=11 levels in Barbarian, +5 assumes 15 rounds and <11 levels in Barbarian). Since Thog has been shown performing extraordinary feats of strength, this does not conflict with the statement that Thog's strength is his best ability score; on the contrary, it tells us what we could have guessed already, that Thog's STR is 17+.

In conclusion: Thog raged for 14-15 rounds, he has the Extend Rage feat, his CON score is 16-21, and his STR is 17+. Unless people disagree with this analysis (certainly possible, especially since a grapple was involved), I'd like to see these data added to Thog's sheet.

As a matter of what's most likely, I'd limit Thog's CON to 16-19, because I'm of the opinion that he's Fighter 2/Barbarian 11+. But since we don't know that for sure, I'll stick to the above.

EDIT: Well, darn. I guess I should read previous posts before claiming new insight. But I do think this is a plausible minimum number of rounds for the fight; it could be further broken down to represent 19 rounds as EmperorSarda does, but 19 rounds requires multiple uses of the Extend Rage feat in order to arrive at a reasonable result (a CON score below 25, since it's not even Thog's best score).

[Chronos]

Quoth Once&FutureKing:

On the one hand, one of the pro "Xykon is 27+ arguments" is that he claims to have crafted a ring of fire immunity.

No, he didn't. He claimed to have crafted an item (of unspecified slot) that made him immune to the type of damage done by Meteor Swarm. There is a core, non-epic ring that will make the wearer functionally immune to Meteor Swarm, and there may well be non-ring items that do the same thing.

[Once&FutureKing]

You have missed the point.

The point is we can say "it is likely Xykon is referring to an item which he'd need to be level 35 to craft", but since it could also not be the case, we shouldn't be using it as an argument of much value. And here's the thing, we're not.

Conversely your side is saying "it is likely Xykon cast Greater Invisibility on himself", and then not following through on the rest of the logical process used above (i.e. that Xykon could also not have cast it on himself).

You're the one relying on unreliable evidence, our side is doing the opposite.

[Flame of Anor]

They are on the 8th floor

Easy for someone inside the throne room to look out of.

[Math_Mage]

I don't think the GDM Durkon casts is a great way to look at Xykon's level, since it would be a difficult-to-impossible check no matter what Xykon's level was, assuming Xykon cast it. That said, Xykon was the only person on TE at the time who COULD cast it (unless one of the Xykon substitutes has more magic than I'm aware of). Likely a case where plot trumped rules, since there's no fun to be had if Xykon gets a free ride to the throne room.

[Once&FutureKing]

Or Xykon could have used a scroll. Or quite another number of explanations are possible. We don't know. We didn't even see Xykon cast it, let alone see what spell it was. None of the pro-27 evidence rests on the same sort of speculative logic.

[zimmerwald1915]

Just throwing it out there, but is there not a feat out there somewhere that could have boosted Durkon's dispel check? Such a thing would probably be non-core, and would have to boost his dispel check by +6 in order to fit with a level 27 Xykon, but the possibility is worth looking into, no?

[EmperorSarda]

EDIT: Well, darn. I guess I should read previous posts before claiming new insight. But I do think this is a plausible minimum number of rounds for the fight; it could be further broken down to represent 19 rounds as EmperorSarda does, but 19 rounds requires multiple uses of the Extend Rage feat in order to arrive at a reasonable result (a CON score below 25, since it's not even Thog's best score).

While I am more inclined to believe your counting (And my counting of rounds between V and Z after Thog rages is more inclined to lean your way than to my initial way of counting), there is the point that was brought that everything is more speculative. But I would rather err on being conservative than giving Thog too many rounds.

And as was pointed out to me, it has been attempted to be counted by many. I think whatever we do put up, that we do put disputed because there are a few ways that it could have gone down and we don't know how Thog did it. Yes, this is the most logical, I think, but given the circumstantial evidence...

[Douglas]

Just throwing it out there, but is there not a feat out there somewhere that could have boosted Durkon's dispel check? Such a thing would probably be non-core, and would have to boost his dispel check by +6 in order to fit with a level 27 Xykon, but the possibility is worth looking into, no?

There are ways to do that, yes. Enough of them, with no clear reason to prefer any particular ones, that picking any to add to Durkon would be purely speculative guesswork.

My guess for the "real" explanation is that Rich just didn't do the math to realize that the level difference was too big for even a natural 20 to beat. It seems like the kind of thing he'd think unimportant enough to not be worth the bother to check.