Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[zimmerwald1915]

So it is possible that Tarquin has resistance to divine energy as well (although I'm not aware of a way of getting that) or that The Giant overlooked that Flamestrikes deal damage that isn't fire.
Mind you, that isn't proven either. I'm just suggesting some alternatives, and I don't think the currnet comic proves he has Evasion.

It's also possible that Malack isn't all that high-level and thus that either he or Tarquin considers the damage acceptable.

Hm, so how would point buy work in-universe?

It doesn't. But every randomly rolled array can also be expressed in terms of point buy, and it was interesting to do so.

With respect to the latest comic, we now know that Durkon prepared two Resurrections in his non-domain seventh-level slots, and an Extended True Seeing, a Find the Path, and a Heal in his non-domain sixth-level slots. If he casts a sixth or seventh-level spell that is not in the Good or Thor domains before he gets to rest and regain spells, that will show us unambiguously that he is level 14 or higher.

[Gilphon]

The problem with that, might you, is that we don't know exactly what Thor domain gives.

[Kurald Galain]

It's also possible that Malack isn't all that high-level and thus that either he or Tarquin considers the damage acceptable.

He's at least 11th to cast Harm; FS caps at 15d6. Hm, 11d6 averages out to 38.5, 14 of which are divine; that's not a big deal to a (presumably) high-con d10-hit-die character, I suppose.

Let's see, Malack could have pre-buffed him with a protection from fire spell, no? If not, what's the lowest level item we can find that grants fire immunity?

[rgrekejin]

I think SoD gives us good reason to believe Flame Strike doesn't work exactly as written. Consider that Redcloak didn't prepare Flame Strike against treants because he assumed they would have Pro-Fire buffs up--not to say that he would necessarily have prepared them for half damage, but it sounds like he assumed they would do nothing. And I don't think Instantaneous duration fire spells are allowed to burn whole forests down, though I could be wrong.

Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption. And as for whether or not instantaneous duration fire spells can start a fire... the rules for it are... messy at best. I actually just came from a gaming session where this exact question came up. As near as I can tell, the most applicable set of rules are found in Stormwrack, where there is a section about which commonly used spells do and do not have a possibility of making your ship catch fire if you use them. Flame Strike explicitly does not... although fireball, another spell with an instantaneous duration, does. In fact, most fire spells can start a fire, except for flame strike... it may just be the exception here because the rules in Stormwrack are explicitly for ships, and Flame Strike is a column directed downwards at the target. It may be being interpreted to mean that it never actually reaches the deck. Ah well. *shrug*

But yes, I agree that Flame Strike seems to be functioning in novel fashion in OotS anyway.

[LuPuWei]

Hm, so how would point buy work in-universe? Do newborn babies get to make a choice for their stats (and if so, why does Roy have stats that aren't good for a fighter)? Or perhaps their parents do (and if so, why didn't Eugene give his son stats that mandated a wizard class)? Do we have any remarks from The Giant about whether point buy exists in his world?

I'd just like to point out that Roy doesn't believe that his stats are bad for a fighter- maybe he chose... unconventionally?

[Kurald Galain]

I'd just like to point out that Roy doesn't believe that his stats are bad for a fighter- maybe he chose... unconventionally?

That's a nice paradox... is Roy's character not min/maxed because he had not enough intelligence to know how? Or did he put a low(er) stat into intelligence because he was not min/maxing?

[St Fan]

Malack's entry doesn't mention his staff.

(Nor his cloak, but I think clothes don't get a mention.)

[Kish]

That's a nice paradox... is Roy's character not min/maxed because he had not enough intelligence to know how? Or did he put a low(er) stat into intelligence because he was not min/maxing?

I see no paradox. You appear to be assuming that minmaxing is an intelligent thing to do, which is an idea which is, at best, debatable.

[Enlong]

I'm still pretty sure that Tarquin has Defensive Throw. There seemed to be a very deliberate progression of action from Roy whiffing his Charge to Tarqin Tripping him before Belkar's attack.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'm still pretty sure that Tarquin has Defensive Throw. There seemed to be a very deliberate progression of action from Roy whiffing his Charge to Tarqin Tripping him before Belkar's attack.

Can you explain why Defensive Throw is a better explanation than Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit? I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious to see your reasoning.

In today's comic Malack says he's watched Tarquin in action for 35 years. Given the PHB's description section that says the minimum human adventurer age is 16, this gives us a minimum age of 51. Still young enough to be middle aged rather than old, but still interesting. Does that sound right to everyone?

[Kurald Galain]

In today's comic Malack says he's watched Tarquin in action for 35 years. Given the PHB's description section that says the minimum human adventurer age is 16, this gives us a minimum age of 51. Still young enough to be middle aged rather than old, but still interesting. Does that sound right to everyone?

Yes, it does.

Also, Qarr is back. This gives us the odd situation that the Linear Guild consists of seven people now.

[RMS Oceanic]

Yes, it does.

Also, Qarr is back. This gives us the odd situation that the Linear Guild consists of seven people now.

You don't remember Kitty?

[Enlong]

Can you explain why Defensive Throw is a better explanation than Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit? I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious to see your reasoning.

Well, Sidestep Charge and Robilar's Gambit both allow their user an Attack of Opportunity when their opponent misses. Forgive me if I misunderstand, but I don't see anything that says that Trip can be used as an attack of opportunity (indeed, it provokes them), whereas Defensive Throw specifically says that you can immediately make a Trip attack against the target who failed to hit you (and treat it as

If Trips are normally allowed as AOOs, then fair enough, those two are as likely as Defensive Throw. Of course, no matter which of the three he has, he needs Combat Reflexes in order to do the trip as well as attack Belkar.

Then again, it is quite possible that he has both Sidestep Charge and Defensive Throw. That would explain his Trip against Roy and his AOO against Belkar (who I assume was also Charging).

[Claudius Maximus]

A trip can be used as an attack of opportunity because it replaces a melee attack, which you are granted by the AoO. The same applies to disarms, sunders, grapples attempts, etc.

The only issue with tripping as an AoO is that if you want to trip with an unarmed attack (As Tarquin did), you need to threaten your opponent with your unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes don't threaten adjacent squares unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike, so an unarmed trip would not be an option without that feat or another special exception.

[Dark Matter]

Tarquin takes on the entire order (minus V), show boats, goes easy, isn't even trying to win, and he still kicks their collective ass.

Can we say his level is something other than "more than Roy's"?

[zimmerwald1915]

Tarquin takes on the entire order (minus V), show boats, goes easy, isn't even trying to win, and he still kicks their collective ass.

Can we say his level is something other than "more than Roy's"?

No, we can't. We've seen him be confident and competant, but also to have displayed fewer feats than a fourteenth-level fighter is entitled to. Neither confidence nor competance is tied to level. Number of feats, among other things, is.

Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?

[RMS Oceanic]

A trip can be used as an attack of opportunity because it replaces a melee attack, which you are granted by the AoO. The same applies to disarms, sunders, grapples attempts, etc.

The only issue with tripping as an AoO is that if you want to trip with an unarmed attack (As Tarquin did), you need to threaten your opponent with your unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes don't threaten adjacent squares unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike, so an unarmed trip would not be an option without that feat or another special exception.

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but the AoO rules don't say that specifically. They just say that you need to be threatening the squares, which Tarquin was with his axe, and they don't say you can't make a non-proficient unarmed trip attack as long as the AoO was validly provoked.

[Enlong]

So, in order to trip Roy as he did there, he needs Improved Unarmed Strike.

In order to Trip Roy and stab Belkar, he also needs to have Combat Reflexes, because that's two AOOs in one round.

If Trips don't work as an Attack of Opportunity without certain Feats, then he'd need Defensive Throw, which necessitates Dodge and Improved Trip on top of that, alongside Sidestep Charge

However, if they do work as AOOs (which confuses me because they generally provoke AOOs), then he'd only need Sidestep Charge and Dodge on top of that.

So, to sum up, he either has Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Sidestep Charge, and Defensive Throw, or he has Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Sidestep Charge.

However, I want to advocate the idea of Defensive throw based on the flow of battle: First, Roy attacks and misses with a Charge, then Tarquin Trips him down the staris. Then, he Snatches Haley's arrow (The discussion on whether that's him or an item is for another time), and stabs Belkar before Belkar takes his action.

The fact that he AOOs Belkar before he makes his attack rules out Robilar's Gambit; ordinarily, AOOs resolve before the action that provoked it fully happens, but Robilar's Gambit specifically states that you resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack. But Tarquin stabs Belkar before he can swing, so that has to be a mundane AOO, which means Sidestep Charge.

However, he trips Roy after Roy's swing. Normally, AOOs resolve first, as I already said. However, Defensive Throw says that you trip the opponent after he swings and misses, if he's the guy you've chosen for Dodge that round.

Just taking the actions by themselves, there are a few options, but judging by the flow of combat as shown, I'm led to believe that it has to be Defensive Throw and Sidestep Charge. If both AOOs resolved after the attacks, I'd say Robilar's Gambit. If both resolved before the attacks, I'd say Sidestep Charge only. But since the trip happens after, and the stab happens before, it's gotta be this, from my understanding.

Sorry for the long post. The important bits are after the However.

[Claudius Maximus]

Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but the AoO rules don't say that specifically. They just say that you need to be threatening the squares, which Tarquin was with his axe, and they don't say you can't make a non-proficient unarmed trip attack as long as the AoO was validly provoked.

You're right, but it could be argued that the rules don't have to say that you can't attack with weapons that can't reach an opponent because that is the normal state of affairs. I suppose the AoO rules could be read as allowing you to attack with short-reach weapons (or in this case, zero-reach ones) as long as you threaten the square in question with longer-reach ones, but I personally don't believe that the text provides that kind of exception.

[sgtpimenta]

No, we can't. We've seen him be confident and competant, but also to have displayed fewer feats than a fourteenth-level fighter is entitled to. Neither confidence nor competance is tied to level. Number of feats, among other things, is.

Do we have any evidence that he's a pure-blood, single-class fighter?

Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?

He single-handedly beat the crap out of the Order. Maybe it's not impossible for him to be mid-level, but it's within reason to say that he's higher level than that.

[Math_Mage]

Do we have any evidence that he's a pure-blood, single-class fighter?

Boatloads of combat feats and no other apparent class abilities is a good starting argument. No, there's no sign up saying "Tarquin is officially a single-classed fighter." Nor do we know that Tarquin has no other feats. But we can't reach conclusions based on evidence that we think might turn up in some future strip.

He single-handedly beat the crap out of the Order. Maybe it's not impossible for him to be mid-level, but it's within reason to say that he's higher level than that.

So we don't know what his level is, it could be mid and it could be high, and it's higher than Roy's. Which is exactly what is stated in the OP.

[ti'esar]

He single-handedly beat the crap out of the Order. Maybe it's not impossible for him to be mid-level, but it's within reason to say that he's higher level than that.

...Can we please not start that again?

[Flame of Anor]

...Can we please not start that again?

Yeah, I'm generally for an inclusionist policy (see: boots of speed, etc.), but deducing stats from comparing power levels in fights is a little vague even for me.

[Fitzclowningham]

Tarquin has an axe.

[sgtpimenta]

Boatloads of combat feats and no other apparent class abilities is a good starting argument. No, there's no sign up saying "Tarquin is officially a single-classed fighter." Nor do we know that Tarquin has no other feats. But we can't reach conclusions based on evidence that we think might turn up in some future strip.

Yes, that's exactly my point, thank you.

So far, we can’t reach any final conclusion about Tarquin’s level, and saying that’s is possible that he is mid-level (or higher) doesn’t prove anything.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, that's exactly my point, thank you.

So far, we can’t reach any final conclusion about Tarquin’s level, and saying that’s is possible that he is mid-level (or higher) doesn’t prove anything.

So what exactly are you proposing? That where a level ceiling is not known we...don't include a level ceiling? Because that's what we do. Or that where a level ceiling is not known we...don't include a level floor even when that is known, on the grounds that including a floor but not a ceiling prejudices an observer towards the floor?

[Math_Mage]

Yes, that's exactly my point, thank you.

So far, we can’t reach any final conclusion about Tarquin’s level, and saying that’s is possible that he is mid-level (or higher) doesn’t prove anything.

It proves that he's not low-level. Which is the only thing that is stated in the OP (13+).

Are you going to argue for something that might substantially impact Tarquin's current character sheet?

[sgtpimenta]

Are you going to argue for something that might substantially impact Tarquin's current character sheet?

Maybe I'm not. Are you?

I was just addressing zimmerwald’s question: (“Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?”). I think that’s a widely debatable concept, and so I’ve thrown in my two pieces of copper. Isn’t that the point of this forum?

[Math_Mage]

Maybe I'm not. Are you?

I was just addressing zimmerwald’s question: (“Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?”). I think that’s a widely debatable concept, and so I’ve thrown in my two pieces of copper. Isn’t that the point of this forum?

Not really--rather, you reframed the argument around whether it's "within reason" for T to be high-level. Since that was taken for granted before you posted, your response is purely manufactured debate. This is what puzzles me.

[Felixc-91]

i would like to put forward a theory i have based on the latest fight between V and Z (durring the gladiatorial match). i believe that it shows evidence that V has the improved counter spell feat. (Or that Rich wasn't paying close attention when writing those strips). Just a quick reminder; improved counter spell: When counter spelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell. Here V says s/he doesn't have stone to flesh prepared, however that Durkon has break enchantment preped and it will have the same effect. However, here Z casts break enchantment and V counter spells it. So either V had break enchantment ready and lied to Elan, or V has improved counter spell and just cast something of higher level from the same school. The first theory makes no sense so... What do you guys think?