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2012-05-18, 06:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
It's also possible that Malack isn't all that high-level and thus that either he or Tarquin considers the damage acceptable.
Hm, so how would point buy work in-universe?
With respect to the latest comic, we now know that Durkon prepared two Resurrections in his non-domain seventh-level slots, and an Extended True Seeing, a Find the Path, and a Heal in his non-domain sixth-level slots. If he casts a sixth or seventh-level spell that is not in the Good or Thor domains before he gets to rest and regain spells, that will show us unambiguously that he is level 14 or higher.
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2012-05-18, 11:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2011
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
The problem with that, might you, is that we don't know exactly what Thor domain gives.
Last edited by Gilphon; 2012-05-18 at 11:04 PM.
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2012-05-19, 02:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
He's at least 11th to cast Harm; FS caps at 15d6. Hm, 11d6 averages out to 38.5, 14 of which are divine; that's not a big deal to a (presumably) high-con d10-hit-die character, I suppose.
Let's see, Malack could have pre-buffed him with a protection from fire spell, no? If not, what's the lowest level item we can find that grants fire immunity?Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-05-19, 02:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2008
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption. And as for whether or not instantaneous duration fire spells can start a fire... the rules for it are... messy at best. I actually just came from a gaming session where this exact question came up. As near as I can tell, the most applicable set of rules are found in Stormwrack, where there is a section about which commonly used spells do and do not have a possibility of making your ship catch fire if you use them. Flame Strike explicitly does not... although fireball, another spell with an instantaneous duration, does. In fact, most fire spells can start a fire, except for flame strike... it may just be the exception here because the rules in Stormwrack are explicitly for ships, and Flame Strike is a column directed downwards at the target. It may be being interpreted to mean that it never actually reaches the deck. Ah well. *shrug*
But yes, I agree that Flame Strike seems to be functioning in novel fashion in OotS anyway.
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2012-05-19, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2010
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- Sort of South East
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2012-05-19, 04:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-05-26, 08:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- France
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Malack's entry doesn't mention his staff.
(Nor his cloak, but I think clothes don't get a mention.)Last edited by St Fan; 2012-05-26 at 08:30 AM.
Spoiler
DM: At the end of the meal, the innkeeper is bringing you the cheese plate. Roll for initiative.
PC: Excuse me, what?
DM: I said, roll for initiative. They like their cheese really ripe in these parts. They have the ooze type.
"Excuse me, but... is it a GOOD or a BAD thing when the DM can't help bursting into laughter every time he hears the phrase 'level-appropriate encounter'? No, just curious..."
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2012-05-26, 08:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2004
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Last edited by Kish; 2012-05-26 at 09:55 AM.
Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2012-05-26, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- In deNile
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
I'm still pretty sure that Tarquin has Defensive Throw. There seemed to be a very deliberate progression of action from Roy whiffing his Charge to Tarqin Tripping him before Belkar's attack.
Awesome Avatar by Shattersnap.
Spoiler
Many thanks to El Goonish Shive for the banner image.
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.
Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles.
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2012-05-27, 01:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Can you explain why Defensive Throw is a better explanation than Sidestep Charge or Robilar's Gambit? I hope you don't think I'm being sarcastic or anything, I'm just curious to see your reasoning.
In today's comic Malack says he's watched Tarquin in action for 35 years. Given the PHB's description section that says the minimum human adventurer age is 16, this gives us a minimum age of 51. Still young enough to be middle aged rather than old, but still interesting. Does that sound right to everyone?"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2012-05-27, 05:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Guide to the Magus, the Pathfinder Gish class.
"I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums. I'm not joking one bit. I would buy the hell out of that." -- ChubbyRain
Crystal Shard Studios - Freeware games designed by Kurald and others!
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2012-05-27, 05:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Northern Ireland
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2012-05-27, 09:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- In deNile
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Well, Sidestep Charge and Robilar's Gambit both allow their user an Attack of Opportunity when their opponent misses. Forgive me if I misunderstand, but I don't see anything that says that Trip can be used as an attack of opportunity (indeed, it provokes them), whereas Defensive Throw specifically says that you can immediately make a Trip attack against the target who failed to hit you (and treat it as
If Trips are normally allowed as AOOs, then fair enough, those two are as likely as Defensive Throw. Of course, no matter which of the three he has, he needs Combat Reflexes in order to do the trip as well as attack Belkar.
Then again, it is quite possible that he has both Sidestep Charge and Defensive Throw. That would explain his Trip against Roy and his AOO against Belkar (who I assume was also Charging).Awesome Avatar by Shattersnap.
Spoiler
Many thanks to El Goonish Shive for the banner image.
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.
Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles.
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2012-05-27, 11:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
A trip can be used as an attack of opportunity because it replaces a melee attack, which you are granted by the AoO. The same applies to disarms, sunders, grapples attempts, etc.
The only issue with tripping as an AoO is that if you want to trip with an unarmed attack (As Tarquin did), you need to threaten your opponent with your unarmed strikes. Unarmed strikes don't threaten adjacent squares unless you have Improved Unarmed Strike, so an unarmed trip would not be an option without that feat or another special exception.Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2012-05-27 at 11:46 AM.
Editor and playtester for Legend.
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2012-05-27, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Tarquin takes on the entire order (minus V), show boats, goes easy, isn't even trying to win, and he still kicks their collective ass.
Can we say his level is something other than "more than Roy's"?
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2012-05-27, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
No, we can't. We've seen him be confident and competant, but also to have displayed fewer feats than a fourteenth-level fighter is entitled to. Neither confidence nor competance is tied to level. Number of feats, among other things, is.
Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?
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2012-05-27, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, but the AoO rules don't say that specifically. They just say that you need to be threatening the squares, which Tarquin was with his axe, and they don't say you can't make a non-proficient unarmed trip attack as long as the AoO was validly provoked.
"They couldn't know that the points from the mainline to the siding were frozen, and the signal should have been set at 'DANGER', but snow had forced it down."
- The Flying Kipper
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2012-05-27, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2006
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- In deNile
Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
So, in order to trip Roy as he did there, he needs Improved Unarmed Strike.
In order to Trip Roy and stab Belkar, he also needs to have Combat Reflexes, because that's two AOOs in one round.
If Trips don't work as an Attack of Opportunity without certain Feats, then he'd need Defensive Throw, which necessitates Dodge and Improved Trip on top of that, alongside Sidestep Charge
However, if they do work as AOOs (which confuses me because they generally provoke AOOs), then he'd only need Sidestep Charge and Dodge on top of that.
So, to sum up, he either has Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Sidestep Charge, and Defensive Throw, or he has Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Sidestep Charge.
However, I want to advocate the idea of Defensive throw based on the flow of battle: First, Roy attacks and misses with a Charge, then Tarquin Trips him down the staris. Then, he Snatches Haley's arrow (The discussion on whether that's him or an item is for another time), and stabs Belkar before Belkar takes his action.
The fact that he AOOs Belkar before he makes his attack rules out Robilar's Gambit; ordinarily, AOOs resolve before the action that provoked it fully happens, but Robilar's Gambit specifically states that you resolve your attack of opportunity after your foe's attack. But Tarquin stabs Belkar before he can swing, so that has to be a mundane AOO, which means Sidestep Charge.
However, he trips Roy after Roy's swing. Normally, AOOs resolve first, as I already said. However, Defensive Throw says that you trip the opponent after he swings and misses, if he's the guy you've chosen for Dodge that round.
Just taking the actions by themselves, there are a few options, but judging by the flow of combat as shown, I'm led to believe that it has to be Defensive Throw and Sidestep Charge. If both AOOs resolved after the attacks, I'd say Robilar's Gambit. If both resolved before the attacks, I'd say Sidestep Charge only. But since the trip happens after, and the stab happens before, it's gotta be this, from my understanding.
Sorry for the long post. The important bits are after the However.Last edited by Enlong; 2012-05-27 at 01:47 PM.
Awesome Avatar by Shattersnap.
Spoiler
Many thanks to El Goonish Shive for the banner image.
Give a player a fish, and he’ll probably try to sell it to an NPC fisherman.
Teach a player to fish, and next week he’ll show up with the book, “The Complete Adventuring Fisherman”. He’ll start hunting for some monstrous leviathan to catch and enslave, and he’ll be dual-wielding two fishing poles.
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2012-05-27, 04:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
You're right, but it could be argued that the rules don't have to say that you can't attack with weapons that can't reach an opponent because that is the normal state of affairs. I suppose the AoO rules could be read as allowing you to attack with short-reach weapons (or in this case, zero-reach ones) as long as you threaten the square in question with longer-reach ones, but I personally don't believe that the text provides that kind of exception.
Last edited by Claudius Maximus; 2012-05-27 at 04:51 PM.
Editor and playtester for Legend.
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2012-06-12, 05:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Do we have any evidence that he's a pure-blood, single-class fighter?
Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?
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2012-06-12, 05:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Boatloads of combat feats and no other apparent class abilities is a good starting argument. No, there's no sign up saying "Tarquin is officially a single-classed fighter." Nor do we know that Tarquin has no other feats. But we can't reach conclusions based on evidence that we think might turn up in some future strip.
So we don't know what his level is, it could be mid and it could be high, and it's higher than Roy's. Which is exactly what is stated in the OP.
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2012-06-12, 07:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-12, 11:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
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2012-06-13, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Tarquin has an axe.
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2012-06-13, 01:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-06-13, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
So what exactly are you proposing? That where a level ceiling is not known we...don't include a level ceiling? Because that's what we do. Or that where a level ceiling is not known we...don't include a level floor even when that is known, on the grounds that including a floor but not a ceiling prejudices an observer towards the floor?
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2012-06-13, 02:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-13 at 02:38 PM.
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2012-06-13, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Maybe I'm not. Are you?
I was just addressing zimmerwald’s question: (“Why is it so unbelievable that Tarquin could be high mid-level or low high-level?”). I think that’s a widely debatable concept, and so I’ve thrown in my two pieces of copper. Isn’t that the point of this forum?
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2012-06-13, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-06-13 at 05:08 PM.
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2012-06-18, 06:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)
i would like to put forward a theory i have based on the latest fight between V and Z (durring the gladiatorial match). i believe that it shows evidence that V has the improved counter spell feat. (Or that Rich wasn't paying close attention when writing those strips). Just a quick reminder; improved counter spell: When counter spelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell. Here V says s/he doesn't have stone to flesh prepared, however that Durkon has break enchantment preped and it will have the same effect. However, here Z casts break enchantment and V counter spells it. So either V had break enchantment ready and lied to Elan, or V has improved counter spell and just cast something of higher level from the same school. The first theory makes no sense so... What do you guys think?
Impossible is a biased statement.
"You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan
link to the thread translating Haley's babel speech
this is a must read for all: Common misconceptions (i am in no way joking, please read it)