Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Felixc-91]

Just something I thought to bring up, we should be keeping a close eye on spells cast right now given that we have had over 20 comics all set in the same day (stating at the linked comic, or maybe before it), and the day is not nearly over yet. This seems like an excellent opportunity to get an even better idea as to who is what level, particularly once the fight with the linear guild starts.

[KillianHawkeye]

Quickened Expeditious Retreat is, since V has barred Conjuration, one of a very few fourth-level spells which would help her mobility...and it can be cast as a swift action. Haste would obviously be better, and we've seen V use Quickened Haste before, but using it only on herself would be a waste.

Quickened Expeditious Retreat would actually be a 5th-level spell. (Quicken Spell is a +4 metamagic.)

[zimmerwald1915]

Just something I thought to bring up, we should be keeping a close eye on spells cast right now given that we have had over 20 comics all set in the same day (stating at the linked comic, or maybe before it), and the day is not nearly over yet. This seems like an excellent opportunity to get an even better idea as to who is what level, particularly once the fight with the linear guild starts.

Overland Flight (level 5) x4
Greater Dispel Magic (level 6)
Passwall (level 5)
Quickened Expeditious Retreat (level 5)

Breakdown:
1 level 6 spell
6 level 5 spells

Since neither Overland Flight nor Greater Dispel Magic is Evocation, it is impossible for a level 15 Vaarsuvius with 23 INT to have cast this many level 5 spells. It is also too many for a Vaarsuvius with 16 levels and either 24 or 26 INT. Possible explanations include my miscounting the number of Overland Flights, Overland Flight being able to affect more than one person (we already know it’s not the PHB Overland Flight, since that can only be cast on oneself), the spell that they’re under actually being Fly rather than Overland Flight, or Vaarsuvius having prepared at least one Overland Flight in a sixth-level slot. This last is the most likely, since it does not depend on human error or houseruling. With this in mind, V's Breakdown now looks like this:

2 level 6 spells
5 level 5 spells


Find the Path (level 6)
Extended True Seeing (level 6)
Detect Poison (level 0)
Resurrection (level 7) x2
Speak With Dead (level 3)
True Seeing (level 5)
Mass Resist Energy (level 3)
Dispel Magic (level 3)
Hold Person (level 2)
Heal (level 6)
some healing spell (level unknown)

Breakdown:
2 level 7 spells
3 level 6 spells
1 level 5 spell
3 level 3 spells
1 level 2 spell
1 level 0 spell
1 spell of unknown level

Discounting the spell of unknown level, Durkon could cast all these spells with 13 levels and a 24 Wisdom – the stats he has in the OP – without even touching his domain spells. Even if the spell he cast on Belkar was Heal, this could be accounted for by making Heal the level 6 Thor Domain spell.


Vitriolic Sphere (level 5, possibly higher)
Empowered Vitriolic Sphere (level 7)

Breakdown:
1 level 7 spell
1 level 5 (possibly higher due to metamagic) spell

Even if Z’s first Vitriolic Sphere was metamagic’d, the spells he’s cast have not pushed his level floor up any.


Control Winds (level 5, scroll)
Flame Strike (level 5)
Malacks Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell (level unknown)

Breakdown:
1 level 5 spell
1 spell of unknown level

If Malack’s Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell is indeed a houseruled version of Create Undead that can create more than one mummy at a time as a standard action, then his level floor would indeed be 15.

[EmperorSarda]

Overland Flight (level 6) x4

Overland Flight is a 5th level spell. (Though probably homebrewed since it usually can only affect the caster)

[zimmerwald1915]

Overland Flight is a 5th level spell.

What the heck. Does my mind just slide around level 5 spells now?

Fix'd.

[zimmerwald1915]

re: creating undead.

Malack created, and now controls, six mummies. A mummy has 8 HD; together, the set has 48 HD. A character can control up to 4 times his own HD in undead at once. Assuming Malack's level in the OP is correct, and that he is a lizardfolk, he would have 13 HD, making his max undead control pool 52 HD. He has 4 HD left over, but he cannot control more mummies.

This is as geeky an argument as we're likely to find against Malack being much higher level than the OP lists him as. If he had even one more HD, he would be able to control another mummy. But he didn't create another mummy when - since the limits on Create Undead clearly don't apply - he might have. I believe this is because another mummy would be beyond his ability to control.

[EmperorSarda]

Possible explanations include my miscounting the number of Overland Flights, Overland Flight being able to affect more than one person (we already know it’s not the PHB Overland Flight, since that can only be cast on oneself), the spell that they’re under actually being Fly rather than Overland Flight, or Vaarsuvius having prepared at least one Overland Flight in a sixth-level slot. This last is the most likely, since it does not depend on human error or houseruling. With this in mind, V's Breakdown now looks like this:

Vaarsuvius says he would need to cast Overland Flight on them (panel 5) as well in order to meet with the party. Which discounts Fly (Which would only allow the others to fly at a distance of a mile and a half more or less.) So operating under an assumption that Overland flight applied to others would be a 6th level spell (Still just speculation, since we have no actual idea), that would be one level 5 spell and three level 6 spells just with Overland flight.

Even if it were all level 5, you are right, that is far too many to be able cast at his projected intelligence. Though he could always have a magic item there. Or Rich ruled it in for plot.

As an entirely separate thing, the math on the SRD for overland flight is off. If you hustle your flight speed (which doubles your movement), you'd fly 72 miles in an 8 hour day. Not 64 miles.

[rgrekejin]

This is as geeky an argument as we're likely to find against Malack being much higher level than the OP lists him as. If he had even one more HD, he would be able to control another mummy. But he didn't create another mummy when - since the limits on Create Undead clearly don't apply - he might have. I believe this is because another mummy would be beyond his ability to control.

I had considered that angle myself, but decided that since most undead creation spells require a material component, this was hardly a sure bet. Maybe Malack can control more undead than that, and has simply run out of black onyx gems to create them with.

[Felixc-91]

I think your counts may be a bit off. If I were Roy, they would have paused for the hour or so nessesary... oh wait, right, at least 8 hours nessesary to regain their spells before heading into the canyon. They knew that place was going to be a serius challenge and the locating and retriving V thing took a lot of spell casting. Walking into that kind of danger with your spell casters depleted is just stupid. I figured that the day started (effectivly) at comic 837.

[skaddix]

I think your counts may be a bit off. If I were Roy, they would have paused for the hour or so nessesary... oh wait, right, at least 8 hours nessesary to regain their spells before heading into the canyon. They knew that place was going to be a serius challenge and the locating and retriving V thing took a lot of spell casting. Walking into that kind of danger with your spell casters depleted is just stupid. I figured that the day started (effectivly) at comic 837.

They had to rush. They thought Nale was in front of them. It was a race also they expected if they beat Nale to be able to recruit the Draketooth family to assist them. So yeah it would have been nice to wait but was not possible.

[Felixc-91]

They had to rush. They thought Nale was in front of them. It was a race also they expected if they beat Nale to be able to recruit the Draketooth family to assist them. So yeah it would have been nice to wait but was not possible.

Your statement fails to support your argument. Between Nale and the (should have been) Illusion coated canyon they were expecting to be walking into a metaphorical meat grinder. Roy has had direct personal experience with why dead men can't help save the world. He would know to take a little time to go in prepared, not rush in halfcocked.

[EmperorSarda]

Durkon says that it will take them all day, via overland flight, to get to the canyon. But as soon as Elan and Durkon are done planning, they head into the canyon. So no resting in between.

Since Overland flight has a duration of 15 hours for V, they could have rested some to recharge spells before setting off but after casting.

But that seems improbable. It fits more with how V can cast so many fifth level spells. But in the end we really don't know enough to guess either way.

[factotum]

Your statement fails to support your argument. Between Nale and the (should have been) Illusion coated canyon they were expecting to be walking into a metaphorical meat grinder.

As far as Roy was concerned, Nale was a non-issue--he was supposedly held in prison back in the Empire of Blood, and Roy certainly had no reason to believe Tarquin would let him go. It was Xykon who they were rushing to beat to the canyon.

[EmperorSarda]

As far as Roy was concerned, Nale was a non-issue--he was supposedly held in prison back in the Empire of Blood, and Roy certainly had no reason to believe Tarquin would let him go. It was Xykon who they were rushing to beat to the canyon.

Incorrect. They thought Nale might have had a head start on them and might beat them there. As far we know, they haven't received word that the Resistance has been crushed yet.

[Ghosty]

re: creating undead.

Malack created, and now controls, six mummies. A mummy has 8 HD; together, the set has 48 HD. A character can control up to 4 times his own HD in undead at once. Assuming Malack's level in the OP is correct, and that he is a lizardfolk, he would have 13 HD, making his max undead control pool 52 HD. He has 4 HD left over, but he cannot control more mummies.

This is as geeky an argument as we're likely to find against Malack being much higher level than the OP lists him as. If he had even one more HD, he would be able to control another mummy. But he didn't create another mummy when - since the limits on Create Undead clearly don't apply - he might have. I believe this is because another mummy would be beyond his ability to control.

I like the elegance of your observation, but what if (some of) the mummies have class levels? Malack was creating his undead from a pool that had some Draketooth illusionists within it; it seems possible. Guess we'll find out if one of them pops off a Blur or Mirror Image when they come across the Order.

[Felixc-91]

Well, at this point I agree that we are at a wait and see time. No one has maxed out their spell limits yet (even if they didn't rest) and we can't quite be certain whether the casters rested before heading into the canyon.
The only thing I can see missing from the spell count right now is a 2nd unspecified healing spell, both Elan and Belkar were visibly injured as the Order fled from the LG attacks; when we see them in comic 855 Elan isn't injured and is being healed.

[rgrekejin]

The only thing I can see missing from the spell count right now is a 2nd unspecified healing spell, both Elan and Belkar were visibly injured as the Order fled from the LG attacks; when we see them in comic 855 Elan isn't injured and is being healed.

Perhaps Elan used Mass Cure Light Wounds to heal them both, but the more severely damaged Belkar still required a spell from Durkon to get him up to full health?

[zimmerwald1915]

Perhaps Elan healed them.

Only spells that have been mentioned (like Durkon's second Resurrection) or cast on-panel were included.

[rgrekejin]

Only spells that have been mentioned (like Durkon's second Resurrection) or cast on-panel were included.

Right. I'm replying to the post above mine. I'm saying that there's no in-panel reason to necessarily add a second miscellaneous healing spell to Durkon's list just because Elan's injuries are gone.

[Dark Matter]

Vaarsuvius says he would need to cast Overland Flight on them...

Roy has been preparing for this for what, days? Weeks? Long enough for him to have his crew make scrolls.

[EmperorSarda]

Roy has been preparing for this for what, days? Weeks? Long enough for him to have his crew make scrolls.

Or at least purchase the requisite scrolls.

[Felixc-91]

scrolls definitly sound like a good possibility, we already know they had some given Haley's mention of the scroll Durkon left her. Having other scrolls of spells they would need makes sense, they have been at several major cites recently.

[Kurald Galain]

Since neither Overland Flight nor Greater Dispel Magic is Evocation, it is impossible for a level 15 Vaarsuvius with 23 INT to have cast this many level 5 spells. It is also too many for a Vaarsuvius with 16 levels and either 24 or 26 INT.

But couldn't V prepare lower-level spells in his level-7 spell slots? We've done calculations based on spells cast per day before, but as I recall they were always of a caster's highest level spells.

I like the math on Malack's mummy control, though. If any of the undead involved had class levels, then that increases their HD; but the minimum amount of HD he is controlling would still be 48.

[EmperorSarda]

But couldn't V prepare lower-level spells in his level-7 spell slots? We've done calculations based on spells cast per day before, but as I recall they were always of a caster's highest level spells.

Can wizards do that? I don't remember.

[Kish]

Yes. Effectively, every spell slot above level 0 could be more accurately referred to as an "up-to-level-X" spell slot. For everyone.

[EmperorSarda]

Yes. Effectively, every spell slot above level 0 could be more accurately referred to as an "up-to-level-X" spell slot. For everyone.

Ah. Well then it doesn't matter how many Overland Flights have been cast. Well, not unless we are certain that he uses all his higher level spell slots with spells of that level. Though, the strong possibility of scrolls can explain the extra overland flights too.

[zimmerwald1915]

But couldn't V prepare lower-level spells in his level-7 spell slots? We've done calculations based on spells cast per day before, but as I recall they were always of a caster's highest level spells.

Yes, that was taken into account later in the paragraph you quoted.

[Flame of Anor]

Have we come to a conclusion on the matter of V's having Improved Counterspell?

[zimmerwald1915]

Have we come to a conclusion on the matter of V's having Improved Counterspell?

There's no particular reason to believe she has it.

[Kurald Galain]

There's no particular reason to believe she has it.

Yes. Most of the spells V is seen countering are also the kind he commonly memorizes; furthermore, we know he has Dispel Magic and Greater Dispel (which can counter anything). I don't think anything V has done implies or requires the Imp Counterspell feat.