Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Douglas]

Effects of Holy Word (Cumulative):

HD > CL: Nothing
HD = CL: Deafened
CL-1 >= HD > CL-5: Blinded
CL-5 >= HD > CL-10: Paralyzed
HD <= CL-10: Dead

Of those affected I can see Nale, Sabine and Z clutching both their ears, so it's likely at this stage their level doesn't exceed Durkon's caster level. Nale, Sabine and Z are also squinting, suggesting they may also have been blinded, suggesting a lower level than Durkon. Apart from surprise, Kilkil doesn't seem to have reacted to the Holy Word, which would mean either his level is greater than Durkon's CL, or his level is between 5 and 9 levels lower than Durkon's CL and his non-reaction is a sign of being paralyzed. Tarquin is holding one ear but has held on to his axe. He might be deafened, or even if you suffer no ill effects it may just be very loud and he is high enough level to shrug it off.

This is not conclusive of course, and will depend on the next comic, but it's interesting stuff.

Given his identical posture in all three images of him in that panel, I think Kilkil got paralyzed. It makes sense with him being selected for LG membership for being a kobold that was on hand rather than for any great power on his part, too.

For level comparisons when we get fully clear results, don't forget Durkon's +1 caster level for the Good domain.

Durkon has cast Stone Shape and Holy Word.

I'm pretty sure that was Meld Into Stone, not Stone Shape. Not that it matters for counting spells cast of each level, as they're both level 3.

[RMS Oceanic]

Again it's speculation at this point, but if Sabine has indeed been deafened by this, then Durkon is at least level 14 (Caster Level 15), since Sabine is level 15 to match up with her rival Haley. If she is blinded as well then Durkon is at least level 15 (CL 16).

[Kish]

"Durkon is likely the same level as his teammate" is so much stronger an argument for Haley=15 > Durkon=15 than this go-through-Sabine, treat-joke-about-Crystal-as-universal-law stuff, argh.

[Douglas]

Sabine's a succubus and has a level adjustment. Her matching Haley is by no means a guarantee that she has the same number of hit dice as Haley, and hit dice is what Holy Word cares about.

[RMS Oceanic]

Sabine's a succubus and has a level adjustment. Her matching Haley is by no means a guarantee that she has the same number of hit dice as Haley, and hit dice is what Holy Word cares about.

Good point. In that case we should take Nale's impact as the base for Durkon's level. He (and Elan) are currently at least level 14, so Durkon is 13 if he's deaf, 14 if he's blind.

And then through backtracking, we can then work out Z's Hit dice as well. It's kind of a weird chain, using Elan to work out Nale to work out Durkon to work out Z, but thems the breaks in this thread.

[Flame of Anor]

Again it's speculation at this point, but if Sabine has indeed been deafened by this, then Durkon is at least level 14 (Caster Level 15), since Sabine is level 15 to match up with her rival Haley. If she is blinded as well then Durkon is at least level 15 (CL 16).

Why does Durkon have +1 CL?

[RMS Oceanic]

Why does Durkon have +1 CL?

He has the Good Domain; +1 CL to all Good Spells.

[pendell]

I'd like to check how likely it is Sabine will make her save. She's got a -4 penalty, right? SRD says will +7.

So ... If Durkon is a level 13 character and has a +1 adjustment -- that means she needs a 14 or better to make the save, right? With the -4 that becomes an 18, but the +7 takes it back down to 11 -- so she's got about a 50% chance of sticking around.

Is that correct? Or have I made a mistake?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[RMS Oceanic]

I'd like to check how likely it is Sabine will make her save. She's got a -4 penalty, right? SRD says will +7.

So ... If Durkon is a level 13 character and has a +1 adjustment -- that means she needs a 14 or better to make the save, right? With the -4 that becomes an 18, but the +7 takes it back down to 11 -- so she's got about a 50% chance of sticking around.

Is that correct? Or have I made a mistake?

Respectfully,

Brian P.

The save DC is 10 + Spell Level (7) + Wisdom Modifier (3) + Her Penalty (4) = 24. A tall order, but not impossible.

[Douglas]

Durkon probably has higher wisdom than that, the number we've got listed is just an absolute minimum.

On the flip side, Sabine has class levels which would boost her will save higher than normal for a succubus. There are a few other variables that could change it, but nothing likely to take it out of the "difficult but doesn't need a natural 20" range. By the math, she's probably gone. By drama, it could go either way and it's really up to Rich's choice.

[Cizak]

We've learned a couple things since this was posted, so I'm reposting it with edits. The mummies came from a staff, so Malack's Magnificent Mummy-Making Spell no longer exists. Durkon has cast Stone Shape and Holy Word.

It's not Stone Shape, it's Meld Into Stone.

Unless both are the same thing. I'm not a DnDer, I just like checking this thread and that caught my eye.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's not Stone Shape, it's Meld Into Stone.

Unless both are the same thing. I'm not a DnDer, I just like checking this thread and that caught my eye.

Nah, you're right. I was posting from my phone and wasn't sure I had the battery life to get through the post, so I rushed without doing my due diligence.

[Felixc-91]

On the minutia side we now have solid evidence that neither Z nor Kilkil is good. I'd say it’s solid enough to put in the OP, Holy word having no effect on good creatures and all.
EDIT:

Durkon probably has higher wisdom than that, the number we've got listed is just an absolute minimum.

On the flip side, Sabine has class levels which would boost her will save higher than normal for a succubus. There are a few other variables that could change it, but nothing likely to take it out of the "difficult but doesn't need a natural 20" range. By the math, she's probably gone. By drama, it could go either way and it's really up to Rich's choice.

hmm, let’s see. assuming Haley is level 15, and that the nemesis thing applies making Sabine have an ECL of 15: 6 level adjustment, 6 racial hit die (12 levels) so add 3 of rogue which gives a will save of +1. That gives us a +8 will bonus vs a DC of at the very least 24, potentially as high as 28 (if D is level 13). She would need a 16 to pass (with a massive pile of assumptions and the bare minimum for Durkon).

[SavageWombat]

Shouldn't Sabine also be banished (potentially) by the Holy Word?

[Flame of Anor]

Shouldn't Sabine also be banished (potentially) by the Holy Word?

...that's what we've been discussing for the last half-dozen posts.

[Dark Matter]

Z looks pretty unchanged. Spell resistance maybe.

[EmperorSarda]

Z looks pretty unchanged. Spell resistance maybe.

Except he widens and then closes his eyes. So it looks like Durkon got past the dratted Spell Resistance that V never could. If Durkon didn't get past spell resistance then Z would just stand there unaffected.

[Chessgeek]

I think Z was about as affected as Nale, but since he never talks, he didn't open his mouth or grit his teeth. So he looks less affected, but I doubt he actually is.

[ti'esar]

Shouldn't Sabine also be banished (potentially) by the Holy Word?

I'd be very surprised if she wasn't - that last echo looks very distorted - but we won't know for sure until next strip.

[rgrekejin]

Minor nitpick - in the original post, under the "3E books used in the comic" heading, why list the Player's Handbook 1 and DMG 1 but not the Monster Manual 1?

Further, and I apologize if this has been covered before, but is there a reason that "Thor's Might" isn't listed as spell Durkon knows? Is there some concern it may be a domain power?

[Douglas]

Further, and I apologize if this has been covered before, but is there a reason that "Thor's Might" isn't listed as spell Durkon knows? Is there some concern it may be a domain power?

I think the general consensus is that it's probably just a renamed Righteous Might, and there's no point listing any core cleric spells because every cleric knows all of them automatically.

[rgrekejin]

I think the general consensus is that it's probably just a renamed Righteous Might, and there's no point listing any core cleric spells because every cleric knows all of them automatically.

I see. That makes sense. Thank you.

[Gnomish Wanderer]

Not exactly evidence, but I'd figure Tarquin wasn't affected because he was the only one not rotated in his mirror images. I guess we'll find out in the next strip.

[cupkeyk]

If Elan used Inspire Heroics on Durkon would it boost his Holy Word? I find it hard to believe that Tarquin is only one level higher than Durkon.

[Claudius Maximus]

If you mean Inspire Greatness, then generally no. It would boost caster level only if he had something like Practiced Spellcaster with an unapplied overflow of at least two caster levels, which I think we can assume is very unlikely in this case.

[Kurald Galain]

On the minutia side we now have solid evidence that neither Z nor Kilkil is good.

That's a (wait for it) good point!

So we know it is Spot now. However, this does raise more questions about how Tarquin is composed since Spot is not a class skill for a fighter.

I don't think it's established that he's a fighter, though.

Minor nitpick - in the original post, under the "3E books used in the comic" heading, why list the Player's Handbook 1 and DMG 1 but not the Monster Manual 1?

That's an interesting question, because The Giant often seems to use homebrew monsters. What monsters have appeared in the comic that are from the MM1? Off the top of my head, all goblins, sylphs, and hydras we've seen in OOTS so far are noticeably different from their MM1 counterparts.
Now the book is probably still in use, but it's not as self-evident as the PHB1 and DMG1, so I'd like to see what in-comic evidence we have for this.

I think the general consensus is that it's probably just a renamed Righteous Might,

(edit) I've added a note to reflect this.

[rgrekejin]

That's an interesting question, because The Giant often seems to use homebrew monsters. What monsters have appeared in the comic that are from the MM1? Off the top of my head, all goblins, sylphs, and hydras we've seen in OOTS so far are noticeably different from their MM1 counterparts.
Now the book is probably still in use, but it's not as self-evident as the PHB1 and DMG1, so I'd like to see what in-comic evidence we have for this.

Well, just off the top of my head, we've seen multiple dragons, zombies, wights, ghasts, ghouls, mummies, an owlbear, a lich, lizardfolk, hobgoblins, horses, orcs, bearded devils, a succubus, a drow, an imp, ogres, a riding dog, and a chimera. I'm sure there are more.

Now, I'm not saying some of these might not be homebrewed in some fashion, but if we're waiting for distinct confirmation that each monster is being played exactly by the rules given in it's specific book, then I think many of the books listed as being used in this comic probably fail to pass that test. If the standard is "appearance in the comic with no obvious deviation from the printed material", then I think a lot of these pass. However, maybe a note is in order saying that not all monsters which appear in the Monster Manual are accurately represented therein.

Also, Celia references it at least once.

[Kish]

Indeed, "A slightly-to-somewhat house-ruled monster" is by no means the same thing as, "A homebrew monster."

[RMS Oceanic]

That's a (wait for it) good point!

Indeed it is. However I think I'll hold fast on adding it until we can get a complete tally of who is deaf/blind/paralyzed/dead/etc. Might as well do it all in one lump.

[Aurabolt]

I'm still hung up on why they went with a mundane smokestick which is more likely to be removed instead of, say, a Darkness spell tied to a rock or arrow or something. At least then, when Durkon moves in, he's better protected from complete blindness and TS, walk straight back into the wall to the others, or even stay there and cast a Dispel for the rest to come charging down after the Word.