Class and Level Geekery VIII (spoilers ahoy!)

[Dark Matter]

I don't agree Epic Spells are acts of plot. Firstly, Familicide is a spell given to a caster who was themost powerful evil caster to ever live, so I'm totally fine with it having that sort of power. It backs up what we know about Haerta... that she was insanely powerful, much stronger than Ganonron (a guy who could conquer "world after world", and cast Epic Teleport, itself an insane spell).

I will leave it to the D&D experts, but I'm sure Cloister could be statted to something reasonable.

The unstat'ed Epics we (more or less) have to handwave since they're unstat'ed. The Cannon Epics are different because they're cannon. The rules encourage house-epic spells, if Rich didn't want a solid Spellcraft rating then Xykon could have cast "Epic Dispel". Instead we've got one scene where Xykon (apparently without cheese) casts a 10th level spell, a 12th level spell, and a 59 DC epic level spell.

One statement from Redcloak or Xykon on how only losers don't min-max would have been funny and lowered Xykon's level... but imho we're not supposed to look for ways to lower Xykon's level. Imho that scene is effectively a message from the author. I don't see why we should be looking at hidden cheese.

As for Xykon's crafting feat, even assuming he's lying, he discusses his crafting feat in private with Redcloak, so he's clearly got some good crafting feats (enough for 8 hours per day of creating magic items), so I'm dubious he lied about the ring he forged... it's also more likely he forged it than it is that Xykon was able to "buy it on E-Bay"... that's an Epic item, the likes of which few casters who live (or lived) could create.

Yeah, that's adding insult to injury. These are hints that even the above scene is a lower bound, not an upper. IMHO it doesn't rise to the level of "proof", but it's strongly suggestive of level 35+, that he didn't min/max to get his Spellcraft level.

[Chronos]

Oh, and I think I said this in the previous iteration of the thread, but depending on interpretation of the rules, you might not need an epic ring to protect against Meteor Swarm. A Greater Ring of Energy Resistance might do it, if the resistance applies separately to each meteor. Unfortunately, the rules are inconsistent on just how energy resistance works, whether it's x per source or x per round.

[Once&FutureKing]

It can't be proved definitively at this stage, but that said Xykon does say "immune to", and frankly I think he'd need to be immune to it to take zero damage from a point blank meteor swarm. I don't read that as energy resistance to each meteor separately at all, especially not when they all connect simultaneously, and the explosion is confined to the same area (ie, him)

[SaintRidley]

From Meteor Swarm:

(Fire resistance applies to each sphere’s damage individually.)

So, assuming a greater ring, we're looking at max 6 damage per sphere or 24 damage total (the bludgeoning damage would get negated because the meteors aren't enchanted, so they can't get by DR).

Which is about as immune as it gets without actual complete immunity.

[Ancalagon]

As for Xykon: I am also in the 27+ camp and think what we saw is beyond a "barely epic" character (all details aside). This is no contradiction to what I wrote about minimising levels earlier as I think that "a high level for Xykon" is the more simple solution to explain what we saw.

In general, I am for listing ranges as well if something is disputed instead for deciding for one version and alienating the people from the other camp, especially as no side has a real "proof" (if there was, there would be no dispute).
If we want, we can bold (underline, whatever) the more probable value (or at least that which got the most votes).

[Yendor]

Have we ever seen Xykon maximize a spell more than once in a day?

He cast Maximized Energy Drain on Darthsuvius, and later Maximized Lightning Bolt on O-Chul.

[FlawedParadigm]

Max'd Bolt is only a sixth level slot. Samantha could have cast that, let alone Xykon.

[Claudius Maximus]

Just going to mention yet again that there is a non-epic (though non-core) ring that grants fire immunity. I'm not saying we should put it in there, but it does mean that Xykon can theoretically be immune to fire without being level 35.

[zimmerwald1915]

Max'd Bolt is only a sixth level slot. Samantha could have cast that, let alone Xykon.

That wasn't said in the context of the debate over Xykon's level, but in the context of the debate over how Xykon manages to Maximize things. This impinges on the debate over Xykon's level because if he uses the Maximize Spell feat (as suggested, but not proved, by being able to Maximize more than one spell per day) then Maximized Energy Drain can only be explained in such and such a way.

[Emanick]

From Meteor Swarm:



So, assuming a greater ring, we're looking at max 6 damage per sphere or 24 damage total (the bludgeoning damage would get negated because the meteors aren't enchanted, so they can't get by DR).

Which is about as immune as it gets without actual complete immunity.

I agree with this. It seems more logical to assume that Xykon is slightly misrepresenting the power of his item than to assume that he's eight levels higher than he otherwise needs to be. Because the latter is a MASSIVE assumption.

[sr123]

Regarding immunity ring:

Could Xykon have picked up Evasion (or crafted something that does that) and then combined that with a ring that increases reflex save vs fire, or Improved Evasion and crafted a ring that gets rid of the other half (not 1/4) of the damage vs fire? What would be the crafting DCs of that (I'm not sure how one does these estimations)?

And for my campaignability sake, can one craft a ring that grants Evasion (non-epic, RAW)?

[SaintRidley]

Regarding immunity ring:

Could Xykon have picked up Evasion (or crafted something that does that) and then combined that with a ring that increases reflex save vs fire, or Improved Evasion and crafted a ring that gets rid of the other half (not 1/4) of the damage vs fire? What would be the crafting DCs of that (I'm not sure how one does these estimations)?

And for my campaignability sake, can one craft a ring that grants Evasion (non-epic, RAW)?

Ring of Evasion
This ring continually grants the wearer the ability to avoid damage as if she had evasion. Whenever she makes a Reflex saving throw to determine whether she takes half damage, a successful save results in no damage.

Moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Forge Ring, jump; Price 25,000 gp.

He'd need to know or have access to Jump to do it, but he could theoretically make a Ring of Evasion.

[MesiDoomstalker]

And for my campaignability sake, can one craft a ring that grants Evasion (non-epic, RAW)?

Yes, yes you can.

EDIT: AWWW ninja'd! Shows me for trying to find the link.

[Flame of Anor]

I agree with this. It seems more logical to assume that Xykon is slightly misrepresenting the power of his item than to assume that he's eight levels higher than he otherwise needs to be. Because the latter is a MASSIVE assumption.

I agree, too. It seems very likely to me that Xykon actually is in the upper 20's, but we need better evidence than this.

[Dark Matter]

It seems more logical to assume that Xykon is slightly misrepresenting the power of his item than to assume that he's eight levels higher than he otherwise needs to be.

Agreed. But I will point out his Spellcraft rating needs less min/maxing with a higher level (which doesn't come even close to meeting burden of proof requirements).

Could Xykon have picked up Evasion (or crafted something that does that) and then combined that with a ring that increases reflex save vs fire, or Improved Evasion and crafted a ring that gets rid of the other half (not 1/4) of the damage vs fire?

Presumably he could make an item which would give him evasion.

But tied up Rogues can't use evasion. Xykon was trapped by Darth V's uber force hand, even if he had it, he couldn't have used it.

[WowWeird]

A-hey! Quick question for (I think) RMS- where do we see Redcloak use the Law domain? The closest I can find is here, but the unnamed cleric uses it, not Redcloak- and furthermore, Redcloak seems surprised that the other cleric has access to it.

[Gift Jeraff]

Redcloak uses Hold Monster in SoD.

Spoiler

Show

When freeing the MitD from the circus, IIRC.

[WowWeird]

Thank you, Gift.

[Psyren]

He'd need to know or have access to Jump to do it, but he could theoretically make a Ring of Evasion.

Including from a scroll, so we can assume that just about any item that needs arcane magic is within his means to create.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Including from a scroll, so we can assume that just about any item that needs arcane magic is within his means to create.

Well as long as its a spell a sorcerer could theortically cast, then yes it would seem so.

[RMS Oceanic]

The thing about Xykon's fire immunity is that he doesn't specify it's a ring that gives him it. Looking at the epic rules, the only thing that requires Xykon to be level 32 to get the fire immunity is if he's creating the ring it mentions. If he infused the fire immunity into a different item like a vest or his belt, that would just be Craft Epic Wonderous Item, which he could pick up at level 23.

However before I reach any conclusions, I think another question about what we assume needs answered: While my own predilections are against assuming a magic item when something else can explain it, when it is explicitly a magic item like in this situation, should we only assume items laid out in the core rules, or can we speculate on custom items that can be created within the core rules, like my hypothetical belt of fire immunity? We've seen custom items in quite a few places like Right-Eye's Positive Energy Dagger and Xykon's Ring that protected against it, so we know Rich isn't against using the custom item creation rules.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

[Flame of Anor]

The thing about Xykon's fire immunity is that he doesn't specify it's a ring that gives him it. Looking at the epic rules, the only thing that requires Xykon to be level 32 to get the fire immunity is if he's creating the ring it mentions. If he infused the fire immunity into a different item like a vest or his belt, that would just be Craft Epic Wonderous Item, which he could pick up at level 23.

However before I reach any conclusions, I think another question about what we assume needs answered: While my own predilections are against assuming a magic item when something else can explain it, when it is explicitly a magic item like in this situation, should we only assume items laid out in the core rules, or can we speculate on custom items that can be created within the core rules, like my hypothetical belt of fire immunity? We've seen custom items in quite a few places like Right-Eye's Positive Energy Dagger and Xykon's Ring that protected against it, so we know Rich isn't against using the custom item creation rules.

Anyone got any thoughts on this?

I would just say to put "Unspecified item that grants fire immunity or resistance".

[EmperorSarda]

I agree with Flame of Anor, put unspecified item. Also calculate minimal stats to be able to make that magic item. So I would lean more to the level 23 pick up rather than puttin Xykon near level 32. At least based on magical crafting.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, this shows pretty clearly that Xykon's level is, in fact, disputed.

People tend to overlook this, but Improved Spell Capacity is not a core feat. It is from the Epic Level Handbook, which is decidedly non-core.

Furthermore, if Xykon is level 27, then we need to explain how Durkon manages to dispel the Greater Invisibility he cast on the dragon. The most common explanation I've seen here is "Xykon used a scroll to cast it, even though it's on his class list", but then we are assuming an unseen magical item again.

And finally, the "12th level spell slot" theory overlooks how Xykon is able to cast Still Meteor Swarm while grappled, because by the rules the only way he can do that is using Sudden Still (because Still Spell requires a full-round action and Sudden Still does not).

So it's not really the simplest explanation if you look at all the evidence.

C) Assume simplicity when not contradicted by the evidence.

Adding six levels is not exactly simple, though.

Can't you just list both? There are two camps in dispute: 21+ and 27+. Each can be at least illustrated by a specific comic that can be linked. That is much more useful for the casual curious reader, for whom the first post of this thread should be directed.

I concur, we should either list all three theories or none of them; anything else is playing favorites.

[Once&FutureKing]

{{scrubbed}}

[Ancalagon]

Scrolls should be handled less strict than other magic items. It also is prudent to assume Xykon used a scroll in the "pre-battle preparations" for an tactical advantage that probably dissolves very early instead of burning one of his spells-per-day on a battle that is supposed to last long.
So the assumption he used a scroll is in line with what we saw.

If we assume the "unspecified magic item", we have a new lower end for Xykon's level (23 instead of 21), that should get listed.

I also want to open another can that (as it seems) has not been touched yet: Meteor Swarm also does Bludgeoning damage in addition to the fire damage. Xykon clearly got hit by the meteors, no?
So what happend to that dmg? As that damage is bludgeoning, it should have passed his DR (we can argue if that dmg from the spell is missing the "magic" component, though).

As for the modding thing, I tend to agree the curators are making "additions that differs from their personal conclusions" a tad harder than it is fun. But if you want to discuss that in debth, I suggest you go on with that in PMs instead of dragging it in this thread (where it is actually a tad off-topic). I'm saying this so they do not have to (and appear as if they wanted to silence you or something).

[Flame of Anor]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You're out of line, man. Kurald Galain and I have had our disagreements in the past, but I'll be the first to affirm that he's being eminently reasonable here. As opposed to the person who is calling a non-inflammatory decision to use the [Disputed] tag an "obvious personal preference".

[Once&FutureKing]

I've got no idea what a "dispute" is then. Is it when one or two people put their hand up and say "I disagree" and present some weak reasons? It certainly isn't clear to me how something like, say, Belkar's level (based on a scene which doesn't give us any certainty) is "not disputed" and yet Xykon's level is disputed, even though it could only be wrong with bizzare, left field, non-core explanations (explanations that still wouldn't put Xykon at 21 as claimed, but at least several levels higher, given all the problems still there, from crafting feats through to 10th level spells and DC59 Epic spells thrown around).

EDIT: a terrible capitulation by the other owner of this thread. Was any sensible evidence whatever presented for the disputed side? None I saw.

[zimmerwald1915]

Well, this shows pretty clearly that Xykon's level is, in fact, disputed.

People tend to overlook this, but Improved Spell Capacity is not a core feat. It is from the Epic Level Handbook, which is decidedly non-core.

Come now. No rules pertaining specifically to Epic characters (such as the crafting of Epic spells, for instance) can be found in the PHB or DMG. And yet we've seen Epic spells crafted and used in the comic and in SoD. We've seen Roy talk about Epic characters taking Epic feats. It's fairly clear that the Epic rules are in play.

[Kurald Galain]

Come now. No rules pertaining specifically to Epic characters (such as the crafting of Epic spells, for instance) can be found in the PHB or DMG. And yet we've seen Epic spells crafted and used in the comic and in SoD. We've seen Roy talk about Epic characters taking Epic feats. It's fairly clear that the Epic rules are in play.

Lots of books are "in play", including the Miniatures Handbook and Tome And Blood, to name a few. We could make a complete list if people want.

But that's not the point. We have theories A, B, and C; if people are rejecting C because it is non-core, then it is very relevant that A is also non-core.